New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[jackolover]

Yeah I'm with you on BP and Namor being opposites like Tony and Steve. BP = salvation and Namor = damnation is what Hickman seems to be playing at. I just see it as Namor making the hard choices that have to be made given what they face. There's no hesitation from him about what must be done to ensure their continued survival.

I go back to the start of this Incursion where Namor and T'Challa are watching this GS Earth. Namor takes out a wine bottle and drinks from it and hands it to Black Panther and they laugh together about how this will all end up alright. On some level they both joined in with the same tragedy that was going to play out 2 hours later, like they both had premonition that something awful was about to happen and all you could do is laugh about it.

[neohuey89]

Agreed, in truth I recede my earlier responses a few pages do I agree with Hickman's portrayal. No do I understand it from his writing yes. Do I agree with the characterization good god no. Only one he actually got right was Namor and Reed. I was disappointed with his Black Panther given how he started an attack on Atlantis than goes hypocrite in this issue. Pathetic.

I'm pretty sure Shuri attacked Atlantis.

[KOSLOX]

Agreed, in truth I recede my earlier responses a few pages do I agree with Hickman's portrayal. No do I understand it from his writing yes. Do I agree with the characterization good god no. Only one he actually got right was Namor and Reed. I was disappointed with his Black Panther given how he started an attack on Atlantis than goes hypocrite in this issue. Pathetic.

That never happened.

[stingnewell]

I'm pretty sure Shuri attacked Atlantis.

Are you sure, when Black Panther was talking to Namor how this fake truce went far enough he made it sound as if he ignited the attack.

[jackolover]

Technically, only Strange and Namor killed anyone (and maybe Black Bolt)

They others weren't willing to pull the trigger. And in the end, actually tried to stop Namor.


Damn, for some reason, I actually felt the most sorry for Strange. I don't know why...

I can't absolve the others just because they couldn't pull the trigger. That just shows how weak they are to stick to their guns. All the Illuminati raised their hands when the question was, "do we find lethal solutions like blowing up planets?", and they all agreed to mind wipe Cap who wouldn't go that way. If any of them backed up Cap, then he would be absolved, but nobody did.

[neohuey89]

Are you sure, when Black Panther was talking to Namor how this fake truce went far enough he made it sound as if he ignited the attack.

Namor proposed the truce to T'Challa and T'Challa proposed the truce to Shuri. Shuri rejected the truce.

[KOSLOX]

Are you sure, when Black Panther was talking to Namor how this fake truce went far enough he made it sound as if he ignited the attack.

No, he told Namor he advocated for peace (which we saw) and Shuri declined. Then he told Namor to go because his people need thier king.

[DrTraveler]

This is starting to remind me of the moral quandary in the real world Manhatten Project. The bomb was built to end the war and save lives, but the moment the bomb is tested the desire to use it ends. It is just so horrendous a weapon that using it may be worse than allowing the war to continue. They will all hold blame from helping build the bomb, but in the clutch it was Truman who decides to use what is arguably the most horrific weapon mankind has built for the goal of ending the ongoing threat.

[KOSLOX]

I can't absolve the others just because they couldn't pull the trigger. That just shows how weak they are to stick to their guns. All the Illuminati raised their hands when the question was, "do we find lethal solutions like blowing up planets?", and they all agreed to mind wipe Cap who wouldn't go that way. If any of them backed up Cap, then he would be absolved, but nobody did.

No, it shows that theoretical omnicide is much easier than actually doing it.

Apparently many of the would be badasses here have never second guessed or faltered on a major decision.

[Montressor]

I'm not sure about repercussions. Not lasting ones anyway. I think the greatest repercussion would come if survivors of the GS got together and decided to blow up the MU Earth. If the GS were parodies of the DC heroes then it'd be good to see parodies of say the Doom Patrol, Justice Society or even the Outsiders go after the Illuminati.

THIS I'd love to see happen. The New Gods, a version of the Spectre or Phantom Stranger...I mean, what would REALLY happen if 616 destroyed the New 52.

[Kieran_Frost]

WOW! For the first time since I stopped reading this series... I really regret it. This sounds AMAZING! Gonna have to pick it up come pay-day. I too am very pleased with the choice. I didn't want T'Challa to be the one (GOD, that would be cannon fodder for some); and Namor fans are strong, we can handle it. It was a good choice, and Namor IS the one most likely to actually have the balls to do it. Have the previous issues been this good? Should I get the TPB?

Images:
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[jackolover]

My point was for those trying to excuse the members that didn't pull the trigger. They all share in the culpability and the heroics. I was an infantry corpsman (medic) in the Iraq war. We heard a lot about the greater good then. About how we were killing terrorists there instead of them attacking us here. It was all self serving BS. We destabilized another country that did nothing to us so we could accomplish objectives related to our well being. So I'm a little sceptical when I hear people trying to rationalize horrible acts with the greater good argument. Has it occured to you that maybe without Black Swan pushing them towards this outcome they may have been able to come up with a solution that didn't involve killing billions. When people in power tell themselves there is no other way innocent people die every time.

That argument may work in the Irak example, but how does it work in the Incursion example where a world is coming at you, and you have to make a split second decision about saving your worlds lives as against the other worlds lives? It's not one country has priority over another country anymore. It's a whole other level of self serving.

[jackolover]

this was a good issue. finally something big happens. kind of silly that most of them choked at the last second though, i guess all those billions of lives didn't mean much to their own self worth.

That choking at the last moment scene looked very heroic on the surface. But where was that heroic spirit when Cap wanted them all to be better men and not make the machines of war and planet busting? They should not have made those machines, and that's the lesson they have to carry with them at the end. Because just making those machines gave Namor that device in his hands.

[Double 0]

Apparently many of the would be badasses here have never second guessed or faltered on a major decision.

Word. I call this the "Light Yagami Effect", based on Death Note.

This theoretical notion that not only is the character right to perform a nigh-unthinkable act, but that you would have done the same thing with even less regard than said character.


Like, that's not badass, no matter what the circumstances. That's bordering on psychopathy. Even Namor, who has killed plenty of people before, is visibly shaken about it. Anyone outside of those conditioned to kill would.


I think Namor made the right decision in comparison to the rest of the Illuminati, the logical one. And it takes an incredible amount of balls to do that.

But I would never want to make that decision, and if stuck to do it, I'm not sure I would.

[Moriarty]

Word. I call this the "Light Yagami Effect", based on Death Proof.

you mean Death Note.