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  1. #46
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    I won't deny that she put them on that path. The moment they talked to her, their course was locked to be world killers. However what I'm saying in the situation they were in, Namor made that hard choice without hesitation to ensure survival.
    Namor is much older, has fought in WWII, and has recently attempted wiping out a country (even if he wasn't in full control). If anyone was going to understand where this path was heading it was going to be him.

    T'challa may have access to the knowledge and wisdom of past panthers but essentially they are just advisors and he ultimate acts based only on what he knows. Namor has decades of lived experience and makes choices based on that.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    I won't deny that she put them on that path. The moment they talked to her, their course was locked to be world killers. However what I'm saying in the situation they were in, Namor made that hard choice without hesitation to ensure survival.
    It may have given them a short term reprieve from death but it was exactly what swan wanted them to do and she has been working towards that goal from day one. Had she not manipulated them they possibly could have never went down this path and have a solution for the problem. But as it is Swan has led them along by the nose and they followed her like good obedient lapdogs.

  3. #48
    Veteran Member Mahes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Damn, for some reason, I actually felt the most sorry for Strange. I don't know why...
    Oh it's easy to feel sorry for him. He cast that spell at an incredible cost and was stopped. He was willing to make the sacrifice to ensure survival. It's no wonder he's so bitter at the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spear of Bashenga View Post
    Namor is much older, has fought in WWII, and has recently attempted wiping out a country (even if he wasn't in full control). If anyone was going to understand where this path was heading it was going to be him.

    T'challa may have access to the knowledge and wisdom of past panthers but essentially they are just advisors. Namor has lived experience and makes choices based on that.
    I think Namor is the one who went into the situation with his eyes wide open. People of the Earth's post also helps make that point clear as well.

    Tony and Reed essentially become hypocrites at the end. All of them are stained and share some responsibility for what happened.

  4. #49
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    Perhaps the best issue of this series and certainly the most important issue of any Marvel book in a looooooong time. They finally crossed the line, and there's no going back.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Technically, only Strange and Namor killed anyone (and maybe Black Bolt)

    They others weren't willing to pull the trigger. And in the end, actually tried to stop Namor.


    Damn, for some reason, I actually felt the most sorry for Strange. I don't know why...
    It doesn't matter who pulled the trigger. Only one of them could have done it were they all in agreement. They all had the intention to do this when they built the bombs. Even before bringing one with them to each incursion. They may intend for the rest to be not as guilty but I can't see it that way. They all helped build the devices they all agreed to bring them and they all intended to destroy the world to save theirs.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosfist View Post
    It doesn't matter who pulled the trigger. Only one of them could have done it were they all in agreement. They all had the intention to do this when they built the bombs. Even before bringing one with them to each incursion. They may intend for the rest to be not as guilty but I can't see it that way. They all helped build the devices they all agreed to bring them and they all intended to destroy the world to save theirs.

    in the end, they killed a billion and saved a trillion.

    By simple math, leaving all emotion aside, they can still be considered heroes.
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  7. #52
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    I don't get the billion-trillion thing. Shouldn't the populations be similar on both sides?

  8. #53
    Junior Member rukkis's Avatar
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    Trillions refers to the population of both universes. Billions refers to the population of 1 Earth.

  9. #54
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    All the Illuminati have blood on there hands. It's not just Namor and Strange. They all got together and made these choices as a team. Might not be a regular team, but one none the less.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    in the end, they killed a billion and saved a trillion.

    By simple math, leaving all emotion aside, they can still be considered heroes.
    My point was for those trying to excuse the members that didn't pull the trigger. They all share in the culpability and the heroics. I was an infantry corpsman (medic) in the Iraq war. We heard a lot about the greater good then. About how we were killing terrorists there instead of them attacking us here. It was all self serving BS. We destabilized another country that did nothing to us so we could accomplish objectives related to our well being. So I'm a little sceptical when I hear people trying to rationalize horrible acts with the greater good argument. Has it occured to you that maybe without Black Swan pushing them towards this outcome they may have been able to come up with a solution that didn't involve killing billions. When people in power tell themselves there is no other way innocent people die every time.
    Last edited by chaosfist; 07-30-2014 at 09:43 AM.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    this was a good issue. finally something big happens. kind of silly that most of them choked at the last second though, i guess all those billions of lives didn't mean much to their own self worth.

  12. #57
    Veteran Member Double 0's Avatar
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    Silly? It's mass murder. I wouldn't blame anyone for choking up, whether it be for self-worth reasons, or just not wanting those deaths in their consciousness every night.

    Frankly, the fact that Namor was able to do it says more about him than it says about the rest of the Illuminati. And I don't mean that in an evil way, but in a courageous, pragmatic way.

    The rest talk about pragmatism, sometimes do it on a smaller scale. Namor proved he can do it on an unimaginable scale.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    Pretty much. It feels so much more real when it comes to Namor and T'Challa rather than the Civil War rehash.

    Also, is it just me, or does all the random character shifts (Steve getting old soon, Thor, Tony both earlier in the run and later, soon Reed will be out of the way, etc.) in Hickman's run remind you of Morrison's JLA?
    Yes. It does remind of Morrison's JLA. When people kept saying Defenders, Brevoort was keen to say, no--Morrison JLA. Since he knows the whole story, this observation is pretty much spot on.
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  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosfist View Post
    It may have given them a short term reprieve from death but it was exactly what swan wanted them to do and she has been working towards that goal from day one. Had she not manipulated them they possibly could have never went down this path and have a solution for the problem. But as it is Swan has led them along by the nose and they followed her like good obedient lapdogs.
    They didn't need Black Swan to tell them that this was a possibility, they knew that from day 1. They've never stopped looking for alternatives to having to destroy other planets. They came to the Great Society's Earth to work together, and were willing to continue doing so even after they learned that the Great Society had expended all their methods for bloodlessly ending Incursions. Destroying the other world is, was, and always has been a last resort, and one that they had to use here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    this was a good issue. finally something big happens. kind of silly that most of them choked at the last second though, i guess all those billions of lives didn't mean much to their own self worth.
    I loved Namor calling them on their handwringing. His comment on them daring to put their own morals above the lives of two universes was spot on.
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  15. #60
    Senior Member ShaokhaN's Avatar
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    Since the discussion has moved away from the preview thread, I just wanted to reply to this here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Murdering another world to save ours? That's worse.
    Let's make something clear, because your posts don't reflect an understanding of the situation as depicted in the comics.

    We have been told (and shown with the incursion Hyperion survived), and it is the Illuminati's understanding, that if an incursion occurs unopposed, two universes die. This means trillions of trillions of deaths.

    We have been told and shown, that if one of the two Earths is destroyed during an incursion, that Earth's universe survives, the other Earth survives, and the other Earth's universe survives. This means billions of deaths (if the Earth which is destroyed is as populated as 616-Earth) and trillions of trillions of people alive, not to mention their future.

    What's important to note, however, is that the billions of people who die if an Earth is destroyed would have died anyway if the incursion had proceeded unopposed/unsolved.

    Therefore, when faced with an incursion about to complete, as the Illuminati were in this issue, destroying the other Earth accomplishes nothing else than save the entire populations of the two universes minus the population of the destroyed Earth. It does not kill the billions living on the other Earth any more than not taking action, since not taking action means they die anyway.

    Based on this premise, the Illuminati were absolutely right to have a weapon capable of destroying another world just in case (and they'd have needed one at the minimum for the dead Earths of the Mapmakers, even if they didn't want to use it against inhabited Earths), and Namor was absolutely right to pull the trigger this time.

    Of course, Hickman could eventually reveal that the result of the unopposed incursions is not the destruction of universes but merely their displacement, that the universes' populations go to heaven or whatever. That's not what we've been shown so far and that's not the foundation upon which our heroes (even the former Great Society) operate.

    What the Illuminati can be blamed for, however, is not seeking help from other heroes (that would not simply blow up the Earth), and possibly not looking for ways to evacuate the Earth (they've at least not been shown looking for ways to achieve this).
    Last edited by ShaokhaN; 07-30-2014 at 10:00 AM.

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