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  1. #151
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    And I've seen this sort of story before and I know the historical precedents, but I maintain and will maintain murdering an entire world and it's heroes -when Namor was the one who cut short any discussion that could have produced a different result- represents the darkest villainy and while I don't think that marvel cares about the precedent of making heroes murderers I don't think it's a good one to have.
    The darkest villainy would have been to sentence two universes full of trillions and trillions of individuals to death, like they were willing to do today.

    Also the precedents of heroes being murderers ? Mass murderers at that ? In a Marvel title ? Really ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Well sooner or later even marvel's bloodlust will be slated. In the meantime I look forward to some future story where some survivors from this world come looking for the Illuminati, though I think this'll fizzle out like World War Hulk did.
    That's a story arc I would be interested in reading actually. Maybe an alternate version of Peter Quill or Richard Rider makes the jump to 616 in a quest for answers, if not retribution...
    Heh, why not.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  2. #152
    Mighty Member Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don't think it's Hickman's definition of heroism. Don't forget, he wrote Cap lasting the Illuminati much as you are, and on Twitter he even said that Cap had the advantage of being right.

    I don't think it's a definition of heroism that he's going for so much as an examination of the term. How important is it? At what point are morals meaningless?



    Very true. And over in Avengers, Future Franklin seemed to indicate there was some other solution to the problem. And even Beast and Banner had a conversation like that a couple issues ago.

    There may be a lot more that we don't know going on.
    Agreed. I'm convinced that blowing up earths is not the solution.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    If morals are only important to have when they are easy to have then what is the point of having them at all?
    That's one of the question this serie was set out to tackle actually.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

  4. #154
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    The conundrum here isn't just "will i sacrifice my life to save others".

    It's "do I have the right to put my personal morals/savior complex above the lives of trillions of people and make the choice of self sacrifice for them?" The answer is no.

    In that regard, Namor was right to pull the trigger. It's a horrible tragedy but that's the point of the story being told here and on a meta level what separates the Marvel universe from the DC universe (the drained Superman was a clear homage to the Dark Knight Returns), lots of Marvel heroes operate in the grey a areas that the likes of the Superman and Batman would never venture, no matter what. The illuminati is filled up with people who aren't just heroes but "kings" who have made terrible choices in the interest of their people.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don't think it's Hickman's definition of heroism. Don't forget, he wrote Cap lasting the Illuminati much as you are, and on Twitter he even said that Cap had the advantage of being right.

    I don't think it's a definition of heroism that he's going for so much as an examination of the term. How important is it? At what point are morals meaningless?



    Very true. And over in Avengers, Future Franklin seemed to indicate there was some other solution to the problem. And even Beast and Banner had a conversation like that a couple issues ago.

    There may be a lot more that we don't know going on.
    Agreed.

    There's a lot more to this story that meets the eye.

    Honestly, Hickman deserves praise for this book. It's probably the most sophisticated super hero book in the market right now.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    That's one of the question this serie was set out to tackle actually.
    It hasn't tackled it yet. It'll tackle it when Reed goes home and has to explain to his son how he helped blow up a world.
    Last edited by Mark; 07-30-2014 at 02:36 PM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I don't think it's Hickman's definition of heroism. Don't forget, he wrote Cap lasting the Illuminati much as you are, and on Twitter he even said that Cap had the advantage of being right.
    Yes, exactly. The fact that Hickman had Cap not able to stomach what the Illuminati was up to and call them out early on shows that he knows exactly what heroism is all about. He wouldn't try to tell this story with, say, Cap, Spidey, and The Thing. The Illuminati is comprised of characters who are willing to exist in a morally gray area and do things that a hero wouldn't. It's not about trying to make these characters look good, it's about examining their course of action.

  8. #158
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    If morals are only important to have when they are easy to have then what is the point of having them at all?
    mark i understand your disappointment in the outcome of these events but you have to think logically. they all gave up. they literally threw the bomb away and collapsed to their knees and waited to be destroyed. there were no other options, no other thing to do except die. namor said no.

  9. #159
    Rookie Member Vexham28's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed this issue, but it's clear after Namor's actions, that it's leading towards Black Panther making good on his promise to kill Namor.

    Damn shame, especially after such a powerful character moment for Namor.

  10. #160
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    I think Maximus's speech on kings gets a little lost in this as well (for obvious reasons).


    After this and then after the fight with the Cabal that is obviously coming, they have got to start looking fo rthe Great Destroyer, no? That has to be the end game final solution? Find the Sourse and stop this

    with this book only shipping once a month for the most part, there isn't a lot of time between now and when Hickman is done.
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  11. #161
    Mighty Member Moriarty's Avatar
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    i knew Namor would be the one to do it. the others were too soft. BP couldn't do it. Strange wanted to sacrifice himself and not deal with the repercussions. i hope this isn't taking Namor down the villain path. he's much more interesting like this. plus with him being an Invader again i'm sure the others would stick up for him.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post

    Tony and Reed essentially become hypocrites at the end. All of them are stained and share some responsibility for what happened.
    Just like World War Hulk, which makes me wonder...spoilers:
    How did Bruce/Hulk took the action this issue ?
    end of spoilers

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    mark i understand your disappointment in the outcome of these events but you have to think logically. they all gave up. they literally threw the bomb away and collapsed to their knees and waited to be destroyed. there were no other options, no other thing to do except die. namor said no.
    I think Namor was wrong.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    Just like World War Hulk, which makes me wonder...spoilers:
    How did Bruce/Hulk took the action this issue ?
    end of spoilers
    Over in oringinal sin it looks like Bruce is dealing with a different set of actions as far as Tony goes. The rest? Does he even remember Hulkworld? As far as I know his army got thrown into prison afterwards and I don't think they've been heard from since.

  15. #165
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I think Namor was wrong.
    well morally probably. but he saved the universe. the alternative is oblivion for everything.

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