New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[Double 0]

you mean Death Note.

Well, now you know which movie I was watching when I wrote that post, LOL.

Fixed.

[Kieran_Frost]

That choking at the last moment scene looked very heroic on the surface. But where was that heroic spirit when Cap wanted them all to be better men and not make the machines of war and planet busting? They should not have made those machines, and that's the lesson they have to carry with them at the end. Because just making those machines gave Namor that device in his hands.

Would a fair analogy be the atomic bomb? I don't think many blame the soldier who pressed the button that dropped "Little Boy"; the blame surely lies with a) the people who built the bomb (a lot of the scientist involved speak of their guilt in building it, even though they didn't physically detonate it (I mean the whole "now I have become death, destroyer of worlds" quote comes from one of the "fathers of the atomic bomb" J. Robert Oppenheimer, not the soldier who dropped it -- and yes I know the quote isn't originating from the scientist but Bhagavad Gita) b) the president who okayed the usage.

The whole quote is so shocking and epic it should be posted. This is one of the scientists reactions upon seeing the atomic bomb, the creation they built, detonate:

"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita; Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and, to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another."

~ J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER

N.B. Oppenheimer would later travel to Washington, handing a letter to the Secretary of War, expressing his revulsion and his wish to see nuclear weapons banned.

[smoothrunes]

Kind of off-topic so I apologize in advance, but isn't issue #22 slated for next week. The pacing of these releases is all over the place. We had to wait over a month between #20-21 and now we're getting a follow-up in 7 days?

[Double 0]

That choking at the last moment scene looked very heroic on the surface. But where was that heroic spirit when Cap wanted them all to be better men and not make the machines of war and planet busting? They should not have made those machines, and that's the lesson they have to carry with them at the end. Because just making those machines gave Namor that device in his hands.

That's because it was full logos in that discussion; theoretical, logical. They hadn't truly gotten their hands dirty like they have now. And when speaking from a pure logical stance, Cap's plan had a high risk of two universes going down without an out.

[Tony Stark]

Would a fair analogy be the atomic bomb? I don't think many blame the soldier who pressed the button that dropped "Little Boy"; the blame surely lies with a) the people who built the bomb (a lot of the scientist involved speak of their guilt in building it, even though they didn't physically detonate it (I mean the whole "now I have become death, destroyer of worlds" quote comes from one of the "fathers of the atomic bomb" J. Robert Oppenheimer, not the soldier who dropped it -- and yes I know the quote isn't originating from the scientist but Bhagavad Gita) b) the president who okayed the usage.

The whole quote is so shocking and epic it should be posted. This is one of the scientists reactions upon seeing the atomic bomb, the creation they built, detonate:

"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent. I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad Gita; Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and, to impress him, takes on his multi-armed form and says, 'Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.' I suppose we all thought that, one way or another."

~ J. ROBERT OPPENHEIMER

N.B. Oppenheimer would later travel to Washington, handing a letter to the Secretary of War, expressing his revulsion and his wish to see nuclear weapons banned.

I quoted Oppenheimer earlier in this thread. You know what they say about great minds and all.

[Strangefan]

My quote didn't post, so this is in response to Smoothrunes.

I get this comic digitally, and usually a week ahead it gives me notification that one is coming out. It isn't the end of the day, but I haven't received notice. However, on Marvel.com it does indicate it comes out August 6th, so it does seem we have one next week. It also indicates that 23 comes out on the 20th of August. So perhaps after delay and delay on this comic they are trying to get all caught up for the 8 month leap ahead, which would need to be Sep thru April, to have the comic universes meet in May 2015

[Mark]

I think Mark is more upset that Marvel is using these characters in this way rather than if it was established effectively within the story that they had no other choice. For many readers, super heroes are examples of ideals that we should aspire to. The way I see Mark's comments is that he's upset that Marvel is allowing these characters' morality to be tarnished by the events of this story.

Which in one way I can understand. Perhaps this does tarnish the characters. But I also think the target audience for this story is of an age that can handle the characters being used in this way. It's a more sophisticated story for a more sophisticated audience. It's not something in the kids line of Marcel Adventure books or something.

That is a lot of it, beyond the plot holes I've mentioned. By now I should be used to marvel junking morals for stories or having characters act like villains. After everything that's happened since Dissasembled I should be more surprise when marvel writes stories where the characters act heroically. But it's one thing for Tony Stark to trick Jen into bed and then depower and toss her into New Jersey or Reed and Tony to create Clor and then have Goliath die or send the Hulk into space resulting in the destruction of world, it's another to actively murder an entire world of people who did nothing to them. I'm not naive or un-sophisticated, I know what Hickman is doing here, but to have these characters do this and essentially toss decades of characterization out the window so he can have a grand morality play irks me and while I keep hoping for some sort of redemption at the end of it I can't help but think this wallowing in blood is now permanently the marvel way, that the writers really have exhausted stories where these characters are the good guys, because after this they really can't be anymore. There's no way Reed can go back to Sue and the rest of the FF and take them into battle against Doctor Doom and claim any sort of moral superiority. He did here exactly what Doom would have done, barring that Doom would have pressed the button instead of just supplying the bomb. They all had a hand in this murder and saying only Namor pushed the button just makes them accomplices. If someone who survives this world decides to get some payback by murdering Sue or Franklin or Val and Reed tries to stop them they can throw this in his face as far as moral grounds go. They can say that he wasn't smart enough to find another way, good enough to find another way. Of that he was so bad at it that he left them to live with the pain of a lost world while he went home to his family.
Hickman is having his fun with this story but I don't think he's thinking beyond it as far as damage to the characters go anymore than Bendis thought past his stories with the Scarlet Witch or Tigra. And yes as much as the murders themselves that does anger me, that a writer would have so little respect or care for the characters.

[Mark]

THIS I'd love to see happen. The New Gods, a version of the Spectre or Phantom Stranger...I mean, what would REALLY happen if 616 destroyed the New 52.

I think it'd be more interesting if the equivalent of Lex Luthor decided to get even.

[Mark]

Kind of off-topic so I apologize in advance, but isn't issue #22 slated for next week. The pacing of these releases is all over the place. We had to wait over a month between #20-21 and now we're getting a follow-up in 7 days?

Maybe marvel is just publishing them at random intervals?

[Kieran_Frost]

I quoted Oppenheimer earlier in this thread. You know what they say about great minds and all.

[Tony Stark]

LOL! That's awesome and of course you got it!

[Dabrikishaw]

Damn, suspenseful issue. Who's going to freak out at who first? Maybe Strange will go off on Namor.

[MindofShadow]

Damn, suspenseful issue. Who's going to freak out at who first? Maybe Strange will go off on Namor.

Strange would be the least likely one to go off.

Who was DESTROYING the planet before being knocked out. He was fully prepared to do whatever need to be done... including slaughtering teh GS.

[Cmbmool]

Damn, suspenseful issue. Who's going to freak out at who first? Maybe Strange will go off on Namor.

Honestly, Namor had that coming from Strange for a LONG TIME.

[Kasper Cole]

As has been pointed out time and again, the Illuminati never did try to find the cause of the incursions or even if they could be stopped.

Actually wasn't that partly why they way they made that "mirror"? Despite what people are claiming they have been looking for other ways to deal with things, that's why they've been gathering as much info as possible. They've been making bombs but they've still be researching other ways to solve the problem. Even when it came to this latest incursion they wanted to find another way to deal with it but things got out of hand before they could.

Reed has an near omnipotent demi god for a son.

If you're talking about Young Franklin he's not in full control of his abilities. If it was just as easy as "get Franklin the fix it" the Fantastic Four wouldn't have any problems at all.