New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[gambitxremy]

Namor the greatest hero of the marvel U

[hawkeyefan]

That is a lot of it, beyond the plot holes I've mentioned. By now I should be used to marvel junking morals for stories or having characters act like villains. After everything that's happened since Dissasembled I should be more surprise when marvel writes stories where the characters act heroically. But it's one thing for Tony Stark to trick Jen into bed and then depower and toss her into New Jersey or Reed and Tony to create Clor and then have Goliath die or send the Hulk into space resulting in the destruction of world, it's another to actively murder an entire world of people who did nothing to them. I'm not naive or un-sophisticated, I know what Hickman is doing here, but to have these characters do this and essentially toss decades of characterization out the window so he can have a grand morality play irks me and while I keep hoping for some sort of redemption at the end of it I can't help but think this wallowing in blood is now permanently the marvel way, that the writers really have exhausted stories where these characters are the good guys, because after this they really can't be anymore. There's no way Reed can go back to Sue and the rest of the FF and take them into battle against Doctor Doom and claim any sort of moral superiority. He did here exactly what Doom would have done, barring that Doom would have pressed the button instead of just supplying the bomb. They all had a hand in this murder and saying only Namor pushed the button just makes them accomplices. If someone who survives this world decides to get some payback by murdering Sue or Franklin or Val and Reed tries to stop them they can throw this in his face as far as moral grounds go. They can say that he wasn't smart enough to find another way, good enough to find another way. Of that he was so bad at it that he left them to live with the pain of a lost world while he went home to his family.
Hickman is having his fun with this story but I don't think he's thinking beyond it as far as damage to the characters go anymore than Bendis thought past his stories with the Scarlet Witch or Tigra. And yes as much as the murders themselves that does anger me, that a writer would have so little respect or care for the characters.

Mark, I understand where you're coming from and I respect your opinion. I wasn't saying that you don't get this story because it's too sophisticated or anything like that.

I think Hickman respects the characters. I think he respects them enough to show them in different ways and pushing them into new territory. I mean, if they all were perfectly moral like Superman, it'd get pretty boring. So I think he's put them in an incredibly tough situation to really examine the depth of their morals. I do believe that every man has his breaking point, and he's pushed these characters to theirs.

As for permanent ramifications, I think it's too early to say at this point. We'll have to see how it plays out. Perhaps the time gem will be used to undo this. Perhaps there is some other out. Personally, I hope there isn't. I find this all very interesting and I don't think it negates their heroism or anything like that. I don't think it's that simple. And I do want to see how these events affect them going forward. I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect hero. I can understand if that's what some want in their superhero comics...it seems like the right place for such a thing....but I like more flawed characters.

But I also think that one of the beautiful things about superhero comics, at least from the Big Two, is that there is a default setting for the characters. It allows them to do different things with them, and if you don't like it, chances are it won't last forever, so you can just ignore or avoid the stories you don't like and stick to the ones you do. I know based on our past discussions that you don't always see it that way, but the option is there.

LOL! That's awesome and of course you got it!

I think it's the only real world analogy that even comes close to this story. Entry of innocent people were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And of all the discussions I've heard on the topic, I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe Oppenheimer or the other scientists or Truman as evil.

I also can't recall them being called heroes for what they did. Yet many believe that the atomic bombs being used prevented harsher results from the war continuing. They basically sacrificed two cities worth of people to save more lives. Was that good or evil? I don't know if it's as simple as that.

I think we tend to deal more in absolutes like good and evil in superhero comics than we do in the real world.

[Aaric Rivad]

But I also think that one of the beautiful things about superhero comics, at least from the Big Two, is that there is a default setting for the characters. It allows them to do different things with them, and if you don't like it, chances are it won't last forever, so you can just ignore or avoid the stories you don't like and stick to the ones you do. I know based on our past discussions that you don't always see it that way, but the option is there.

Excellent post, and I think this point in particular is something that people tend to forget. These characters have existed for longer than most of their fans have been alive, and in that time there have been some great stories told... and some not so great. If we were to cling to every single bit of continuity that exists, it would probably cause reality to fold upon itself. Sometimes, you just have to ditch the stuff that doesn't work.

It amazes me that people don't understand that the entire point of this series is that there is no easy solution. There isn't going to be a cosmic MacGuffin or an Omega-level mutant to twitch their nose and make it go away. That's the simplistic comic book solution that we've come to rely on, and it's laziness on the part of the creators and the fans. This book is operating on a different level.

I'm glad that people are realizing that Black Swan has been feeding the Illuminati a string of nonsense, parsing it in cryptic ramblings that appear "cool" at first glance. I grew tired of her babble almost immediately, and it seems that the Illuminati have as well. Now that they've passed the point of no return, it's time to get some real answers from her.

I don't care for the way Hickman portrays the Avengers as the least competent characters in their own books, but I can't deny that the story he's telling is fascinating and terrifying. This was a fantastic issue.

[UltimateTy]

WTF was happening around Namor's crotch area on the last page yuck

[Radix]

I love the fact that there is a hero is willing not only to give up his life, but his morality, and his reputation in order to save 2 universes. He is willing to forever be remembered as the murderer of billions in order to save many more lives. That takes a lot of guts. Although I will give Strange props for being willing to sell his very soul.

[Zagreus]

I love the fact that there is a hero is willing not only to give up his life, but his morality, and his reputation in order to save 2 universes. He is willing to forever be remembered as the murderer of billions in order to save many more lives. That takes a lot of guts. Although I will give Strange props for being willing to sell his very soul.

Namor rocks. He's always been one of the best characters in Marvel's stable. Such a well defined personality. He deserves another shot at a solo title. Hell, the Surfer has one.

[Zuri]

I love the fact that there is a hero is willing not only to give up his life, but his morality, and his reputation in order to save 2 universes. He is willing to forever be remembered as the murderer of billions in order to save many more lives. That takes a lot of guts. Although I will give Strange props for being willing to sell his very soul.

The way the story is going Namor activated the bomb not out of any sense of sacrificing his morality but instead out of a sense of fatalism the same sense of fatalism that lead him to start the fight with the Great Society... this inter dimensional crisis is slowly and surely making eating Namor from the inside out... I would et that the next plot turn in the story will be the rest of the team looking at Namor as a liability.

Like, that's not badass, no matter what the circumstances. That's bordering on psychopathy. Even Namor, who has killed plenty of people before, is visibly shaken about it. Anyone outside of those conditioned to kill would.


I think Namor made the right decision in comparison to the rest of the Illuminati, the logical one. And it takes an incredible amount of balls to do that.

Maybe i watch too much Anime and read too much Manga because in Anime and Manga this sort of moral problem is many times treated as trivial and reflecting the lack of self honesty of the protagonists. A world that you have no connection to that holds no personal meaning to you is not of the same value of the world where your friends and family and people live. It is self deceptive to think otherwise.... so if this other world's existence threatens the wellbeing of your people, friends and family then it must be destroyed.

Anyway i would argue destroying that world was both the morally right and logical thing to do and everybody except Namor on that team failed the world.

[Dabpool]

Something about Maximus's talk with Black Swan got me wondering, he talks about kings and what they will/must do. We have seen with the Adaptoid's in Avengers that mapmakers add to there ranks by incorporating things from the 616 world. We have no idea what an Ebony or Ivory king is. I'm not even sure if its king singular or kings plural. These multiverse threats are rooted from different earths so maybe Black Bolt/ Black Panther & Maximus or other versions of them. Only reason I say that is BP and BB both rock black and Maximus rocks white and they are royalty

[Ekie]

Maybe Namor is the ebony King and T'challa is the Ivory King

[chaosfist]

Something about Maximus's talk with Black Swan got me wondering, he talks about kings and what they will/must do. We have seen with the Adaptoid's in Avengers that mapmakers add to there ranks by incorporating things from the 616 world. We have no idea what an Ebony or Ivory king is. I'm not even sure if its king singular or kings plural. These multiverse threats are rooted from different earths so maybe Black Bolt/ Black Panther & Maximus or other versions of them. Only reason I say that is BP and BB both rock black and Maximus rocks white and they are royalty

I actually wonder if there are Ebony and Ivory Kings. It's something that's confused me since issue 13 and the Black Preists mentioning the Ebony Kings. Before that the only two mentions of kings that I can remember were by Swan and she called them the sinnu sarum, the Ivory Kings. She said they gave her people the key to the library of world's when telling her story and again after they brought Thanos back to the Necropolis. Could it have been a mistake to call them Ebony Kings or are there in fact two kings? It's something I've always wondered about. Anyhow I think you may be right. I think they could be Illuminatis that learned to play the game and become killers of world's. If you think about it there is no difference in what the illuminati did today vs anything the mapmakers or priests do whenever they have to. I guess the mapmakers want it to happen but there is now no difference in outcome. They would have to get more knowledge on what exactly is going on as they gave swan the key to that library but I think that hypothesis might be correct.

[Username taken]

I still think with the Time Gem in play, the events happening in Avengers (the main book) and Franklin Richards future speech that large parts of these events are going to be unravelled or undone.

[chaosfist]

I still think with the Time Gem in play, the events happening in Avengers (the main book) and Franklin Richards future speech that large parts of these events are going to be unravelled or undone.

I think that what Steve has been experiencing in the future is directly related to the incursions. The war that Worldcore Widow and Ultron Cap mentioned sounds like something being fought across all time and space. That sounds like its related to whats going on in New Avengers. Ive always thought that Logan stopping AoU and time breaking was the catalyst for the incursions but never could really tie it together. Seeing that Ultron plays a part in the future and in this war being fought across all spacetime, to me means something with him is related. I think its possible that when AoU was prevented, the future that Cap saw took its place. This leads to the war being fought presumably between Worldcore Widow and Ultron and possibly others. The war leads to the early destruction of the 616 universe sometime in the future, possibly after Cap delivers Ultron's bomb to Worldcore Widow today. He then traveled to the white space left after a universe is destroyed and meets this atemporal Iron Man. The early death of the 616 causes the chain reaction of universes smashing into each other. These reactions occur in the past (now) because the event that led to the destruction of the universe happened in the past (now). Though that still wouldnt explain the whole it started with Steve and Tony and the idea of expansion narrative. I suppose it could not have anything to do with AoU but rather the founding of the Avengers machine. Derivatives of that machine did seem to endure to the time of Worldcore Widow, 50,000 years in the future. I guess its possible that Worldcore was the Avengers machine as a singular functioning AI. Though the founding of the machine was Tonys response too the incursions. But I guess that might not matter as Franklin says time isnt some sequential line of cause and effect, but rather a organism made up of universes, so it could always been that they would start the machine that would lead to the collapse of the multiverse which would ensure the machine was started. I think we will know more when Steve talks to this Iron Man he met today who I presume is Tony. Anyhow sorry I know this doesnt have much to do with this issue of NA. But there wasnt a review thread for todays Avengers issue and it is related.

[Tony Stark]

I think that what Steve has been experiencing in the future is directly related to the incursions. The war Worldcore Widow and Ultron Cap mentioned sounds like something being fought across all time and space. That sounds like its related to whats going on in New Avengers. Ive always thought that Logan stopping AoU and time breaking was the catalyst for the incursions but never could really tie it together. Seeing Ultron play a part in the future means something with him is related. I think its possible that when AoU was prevented the future that Cap saw took its place. This leads to the war being fought across spacetime. The war leads to the early destruction of the 616 universe in the future possibly after Cap delivers Ultron's bomb to Worldcore Widow today. He then traveled to the white space left after a universe is destroyed and meets this atemporal Iron Man. The early death of the 616 causes the chain reaction of universes smashing into each other. These reactions occur in the past because the event that led to the destruction of the universe happened in the past (now). Though that still wouldnt explain the whole it started with Steve and Tony and the idea of expansion narrative. I suppose it could not have anything to do with AoU but rather the founding of the Avengers machine. Derivatives of that machine did seem to endure to the time of worldcore widow and I guess its possible that worldcore was the Avengers machine as a functioning AI. Though the founding of the machine was Tonys response to the incursions. But I guess that might not matter as Franklin says time isnt some sequential line of cause and effect but rather a organism made up of universes so it could always been that they would start the machine that would lead to the collapse of the multiverse which would ensure the machine was started. I think we will know more when Steve talks to this Iron Man he met today who I presume is Tony. Anyhow sorry I know this doesnt have much to do with this issue of NA.

It might not have anything to do with NA #21, but I enjoyed reading your theory.

[jackolover]

Nobody of the Illuminati said, "It is better to let this Earth be destroyed, because this will stop the Incursions". It was left up to Namor to give some cryptic jargon about was it worth it, or not? That humanity that individuality doesn't matter. And then Namor progresses to turn on the planet buster machine and destroy the GS Earth, thus continuing the Incursions further.

But how ironic, that the elder Black Panther council is saved by the very Namor they wanted BP to kill. Now they are alive, hate T'Challa, and all because their enemy Namor preserved their hereditary, not their own kind, T'Challa.

Reed and T'Challa were resigned to their fate to be destroyed in this Incursion, saying it isn't worth it to destroy Billions. But despite Namor even admitting his life and the other illuminati are just a pittance, that they don't compare to the worth of the Billions they will save. Unfortunately Namors advice is so short sighted, because more Incursions will continue to be encountered.

[jackolover]

Are you serious? Namor just saved trillions of lives. No one else had any other options and the rest were placing their self-worth above that of continued survival. Namor did what none of them could do.

So, destroy your self worth by killing billions on GS Earth, but be real men, who have resolve, enough to preserve Trillions?