New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[MichaelAngel0]

This.

The fact that we know that multiple Beast have evacuated earths of the multiverse and that wasn't tried at all, makes this entire debate about 'heroism' silly. There is no way killing a group of heroic heroes and blowing up their earth is heroic. There is no spin to it. It will always be wrong. This was a tragedy.

The fact that they didn't even entertain the idea of moving everyone off planet or to a counter earth or something says all. To me at least, Cap warning is becoming more clear. His viewpoint was to not put everything on the table and figure something else out. Putting everything on the table was lazy and didn't challenge them to think bigger.

Well in this story, they want to keep it secret, because such an event would cause mass panic. Franklin and the Negative Zone, among other easy fix-its, aren't available in this story because it would be the easy way out; which greatly diminishes the emergency of this situation. Also, there's the part where they want to stop the problem entirely. If they've already excused themselves from the problem, what's pushing them to try and stop a problem which no long affects them, their Earth, or their universe?

People have to realize that the exclusion of all these easy outs, makes the story much more interesting and compelling.

[Victor Freeman]

And all this after some alt Universe Builders outright asked them why they haven't blown up thier own Earth already.

Exactly.
......................

[MouserGrey]

Hickman only needs a couple pages of flashbacks having the Illuminati discussing the various incursions avoiding possibilities to make this tragedy come of a little less tragic. I would be a bit lame, but might take some of the shade off of this horrible situation he has written these characters into.

I just re-read The Watchmen and the pacing of New Avengers has the same speed for me. Even some of the heavy atmosphere. I was old enough, just not wise enough to buy Watchmen as it was being published. Can you imagine trying to read that as it was coming out? If there had been forums back then it would have been "Get to the f*&#ing point Moore!" everywhere. Maybe not. But I get the same feel from this book.

[jphamlore]

Hickman only needs a couple pages of flashbacks having the Illuminati discussing the various incursions avoiding possibilities to make this tragedy come of a little less tragic. I would be a bit lame, but might take some of the shade off of this horrible situation he has written these characters into.

I just re-read The Watchmen and the pacing of New Avengers has the same speed for me. Even some of the heavy atmosphere. I was old enough, just not wise enough to buy Watchmen as it was being published. Can you imagine trying to read that as it was coming out? If there had been forums back then it would have been "Get to the f*&#ing point Moore!" everywhere. Maybe not. But I get the same feel from this book.

Is there a New Avengers equivalent of the pirates story in Watchmen?

[KOSLOX]

Is there a New Avengers equivalent of the pirates story in Watchmen?

The cycle of violence in the Wakanda/Atlantis war?

[Victor Freeman]

Well in this story, they want to keep it secret, because such an event would cause mass panic. Franklin and the Negative Zone, among other easy fix-its, aren't available in this story because it would be the easy way out; which greatly diminishes the emergency of this situation. Also, there's the part where they want to stop the problem entirely. If they've already excused themselves from the problem, what's pushing them to try and stop a problem which no long affects them, their Earth, or their universe?

People have to realize that the exclusion of all these easy outs, makes the story much more interesting and compelling.

Of course. But people also need to realize that Hickman already said the that Illuminati were WRONG. So arguing that the actions being made was right is off. Which means those defending genocide for the "greater good" are also wrong. He's been consistent that the whole idea is a terrible idea! This is a deconstruction of the idea of a group of leaders and kings making decisions for other people without their input or inclusion. He said before that Cap was totally right. So to me at least, debating about the actions that took place as a positive is a bit off. It's not going to end very well for a few of these characters.

So while you are right about the drama, and what makes the story interesting. You can't totally ignore that fact that the what going on isn't right while debating it. He's not writing it like, what has occurred was not the right thing. A tough choice was made because of a string of bad choices they made or didn't explore. But this choice was still bad. That's the point. You can't say the we can't point out the options they could have used. They have made bad choices and they whole concept is a bad idea from it's starting premise. The a big part of the premise of NA is that the illuminati is a bad idea.

We will see what characters actually correct them, who keeps doing the unthinkable.

[ShaokhaN]

Of course. But people also need to realize that Hickman already said the that Illuminati were WRONG. So arguing that the actions being made was right is off. Which means those defending genocide for the "greater good" are also wrong. He's been consistent that the whole idea is a terrible idea! This is a deconstruction of the idea of a group of leaders and kings making decisions for other people without their input or inclusion. He said before that Cap was totally right. So to me at least, debating about the actions that took place as a positive is a bit off. It's not going to end very well for a few of these characters.

So while you are right about the drama, and what makes the story interesting. You can't totally ignore that fact that the what going on isn't right while debating it. He's not writing it like, what has occurred was not the right thing. A tough choice was made because of a string of bad choices they made or didn't explore. But this choice was still bad. That's the point. You can't say the we can't point out the options they could have used. They have made bad choices and they whole concept is a bad idea from it's starting premise. The a big part of the premise of NA is that the illuminati is a bad idea.

We will see what characters actually correct them, who keeps doing the unthinkable.

What matters is what's on panel. On panel, without the bombs, Earth would have been mapped by the Mapmakers by the 6th issue. Following Cap's advice would have already lost them the Earth there and then. It doesn't matter if Hickman says Cap's right, what matters is that we see on panel that he was.

[Victor Freeman]

What matters is what's on panel. On panel, without the bombs, Earth would have been mapped by the Mapmakers by the 6th issue. Following Cap's advice would have already lost them the Earth there and then. It doesn't matter if Hickman says Cap's right, what matters is that we see on panel that he was.

On Panel there were TWO examples to stop the incursions-- with the examples given by Vega and I, about multiple Beast moving populations and also the builders asking them why they have not destroyed their earth yet. Which would stop the incursions. Doing both would give them time to fight the multiverse from ending--without committing mass murder.

And no, you don't get to make a decision on what matters and what does not. Whatever I want to bring up is my opinion. Again, we know the premise. I chose not to play ignorant on what the premise of the story is. :shrugs:

[MichaelAngel0]

Of course. But people also need to realize that Hickman already said the that Illuminati were WRONG. So arguing that the actions being made was right is off. Which means those defending genocide for the "greater good" are also wrong. He's been consistent that the whole idea is a terrible idea! This is a deconstruction of the idea of a group of leaders and kings making decisions for other people without their input or inclusion. He said before that Cap was totally right. So to me at least, debating about the actions that took place as a positive is a bit off. It's not going to end very well for a few of these characters.

So while you are right about the drama, and what makes the story interesting. You can't totally ignore that fact that the what going on isn't right while debating it. He's not writing it like, what has occurred was not the right thing. A tough choice was made because of a string of bad choices they made or didn't explore. But this choice was still bad. That's the point. You can't say the we can't point out the options they could have used. They have made bad choices and they whole concept is a bad idea from it's starting premise. The a big part of the premise of NA is that the illuminati is a bad idea.

We will see what characters actually correct them, who keeps doing the unthinkable.

Of course, they're not "right", but we don't even know what "right" is at this moment. Capt. America was "right", but if he was in control they would've ended up in the same scenario as the GS...who got caught with their collective pants down when another Incursion suddenly happened after they stopped a previous one....which they sacrificed 2, involuntary lives to accomplish.

So yeah, hickman may have said that Cap was "right", but he's yet to actually explain what that means. If anything, it could just apply to what it means to be a hero (not compromising, or tainting, oneself to get the job done), or asking for help, rather than the situation the that Illuminati are in.

Also, as BP said, they've watched 30 Earths die because they're Incursions went unopposed. The best solutions came from the GS, whose first solution was a one-time solution like their Infinitely Gauntlet, the GS's second option had their Dr. Fate sacrifice two people every time it was used, and the third option, which they don't talk about, is heavily implied to have been at the cost of several innocent lives.

With all we and the Illuminati have been given to work with in this story, no effective, reusable solution has been offered yet (that doesn't include blowing up their own Earth with out the opinions of their fellow inhabitants, like the GS were about to let their Earth be destroyed without the input of others).

So yes, Cap is "right"...whatever that means.

[MichaelAngel0]

In this story, there's no out that involves moving to another planet and blowing up the previous Earth.

If that were to be the case, then what would push these characters to trying to stop a problem that doesn't affect them, their loved one, their Earth, or their universe? Nothing, and then we'd have no story.

[KOSLOX]

In this story, there's no out that involves moving to another planet and blowing up the previous Earth.

There is, we were just told it was "a low path". That said, there's likely no way to do a full evac which still puts you in a situation of widespread panic, wars, and drawing of lots.

What is kind of weird is that while this story has been running we've had a concurrent story in Uncanny Avengers which had the Scarlet Witch do a mass evac to an alternate world while Earth was destroyed.

So in one timeline I guess Kang (using SW as a proxy) saved the universe.

[arveg2]

I don't do anything. Giving me the gun gives the power to kill someone, it doesn't give me the right to choose who lives and who dies. And if because I decide to do nothing and everyone dies the fault will not be mine, it will belong to the force that kills us all!.

lol @ this logic...the only time it well never be anyone's fault is if there is NO more alternative at all at that given time and at that given situation. Its basically those setup where one just sits idly and dies.....HOWEVER, if there is indeed a way to do something which would result in saving some or at most the majority, it is anybody's responsibility to do what is necessary.

so are you still going to continue reading the title after this or will you continue....ehrm nvm?

Queen Gorgo: This will not be over quickly. You will not enjoy this...

[MichaelAngel0]

There is, we were just told it was "a low path". That said, there's likely no way to do a full evac which still puts you in a situation of widespread panic, wars, and drawing of lots.

Yup, that's another reason why that solution doesn't work as easy as everyone says it will. It would likely result in a horrible "domestic" outcome, along with the Incursions happening.

Either way, people die.

[ShaokhaN]

On Panel there were TWO examples to stop the incursions-- with the examples given by Vega and I, about multiple Beast moving populations and also the builders asking them why they have not destroyed their earth yet. Which would stop the incursions. Doing both would give them time to fight the multiverse from ending--without committing mass murder.

Your two solutions are the same. The entire point of evacuating the Earth is to destroy it. Yes, I agree with you that it would be a solution, and I actually said a number of issues ago that this is exactly what they should have done with the infinity gauntlet - create another Earth, move everyone on it, and destroy the original one.

This, in itself, does not mean the Illuminati are "wrong" - we have not been told that they found a working way to evacuate and rejected it. We don't know how the multiple Beasts organized the evacuation of their Earths. In any case, putting the weapon option on the table - which is what Cap objected to - does not, in itself, rule out looking for other possibilities. Reed explicitly said that they were, and Dr. Strange was as well when he asked for the power to "move worlds". And again, the weapon option prevented them from being mapped by the Mapmakers in the 6th issue.

And no, you don't get to make a decision on what matters and what does not. Whatever I want to bring up is my opinion. Again, we know the premise. I chose not to play ignorant on what the premise of the story is. :shrugs:

Sure, I never said that you shouldn't bring up your opinion. You're the one who argued that because Hickman said something, everyone saying something else is necessarily wrong and that it is "off" to argue otherwise. So... take your own advice?

[Victor Freeman]

Of course, they're not "right", but we don't even know what "right" is at this moment. Capt. America was "right", but if he was in control they would've ended up in the same scenario as the GS...who got caught with their collective pants down when another Incursion suddenly happened after they stopped a previous one....which they sacrificed 2, involuntary lives to accomplish.

So yeah, hickman may have said that Cap was "right", but he's yet to actually explain what that means. If anything, it could just apply to what it means to be a hero (not compromising, or tainting, oneself to get the job done), or asking for help, rather than the situation the that Illuminati are in.

Also, as BP said, they've watched 30 Earths die because they're Incursions went unopposed. The best solutions came from the GS, whose first solution was a one-time solution like their Infinitely Gauntlet, the GS's second option had their Dr. Fate sacrifice two people every time it was used, and the third option, which they don't talk about, is heavily implied to have been at the cost of several innocent lives.

With all we and the Illuminati have been given to work with in this story, no effective, reusable solution has been offered yet (that doesn't include blowing up their own Earth with out the opinions of their fellow inhabitants, like the GS were about to let their Earth be destroyed without the input of others).

So yes, Cap is "right"...whatever that means.

I just named a solution. Remove your earth's population (like the Beasts have) and destroy your own earth instead of committing genocide. Hell, they could have removed the GS earth population and blew it up.

Cap was right in that putting all the opinions on the table, actually made it where they are lazy in finding a solution that doesn't involve mass murder. He said that they would do this and it's what they did. They have from the start, been mostly geared toward destruction with B.Swan's input and influence. Note the words of the Dr. Fate character on the NA. They took it down this path. Some will continue down that path. Others will not. We will see who is right or wrong. I'm positive that what blowing up the earths isn't the right thing.