New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[MindofShadow]

Now I wonder if T'challa knew namor would do what he did. He had the conversation about needing him for a reason and threw the trigger in his direction. It's not unlike T'challa to plan that far ahead but the acting before makes me question it.

Hickman REITERATED once again that T'challa will kill Namor when he is done with him.

That had to be for a reason.

I dont think THIS is what the reason was though. I think it will come later down the line.


I really, really could see Namor "saving the day" in the end while working for the Cabal. Like, Namor turning on Thanos and Co. at the very end when they are about to do something that goes beyond killing an Earth. That will be his "purpose" and that will kind of redeem him...

before T'challa then kills him. I 100% think T'challa is going ot do it now. No reason for Hickman to keep bringing it back up.


Could Alt reality Thanos be the Great Destroyer?

[Vic Vega]

Hickman REITERATED once again that T'challa will kill Namor when he is done with him.

That had to be for a reason.

I dont think THIS is what the reason was though. I think it will come later down the line.


I really, really could see Namor "saving the day" in the end while working for the Cabal. Like, Namor turning on Thanos and Co. at the very end when they are about to do something that goes beyond killing an Earth. That will be his "purpose" and that will kind of redeem him...

before T'challa then kills him. I 100% think T'challa is going ot do it now. No reason for Hickman to keep bringing it back up.

Yeah, I kinda take the opposite thinking here.

Its not like the dead kings see the world as it is either.

His Father said as much.

[KOSLOX]

Thanos will probably want to see two universes get annihilated. I wouldn't be surprised if he killed the protectors of two different worlds just to watch.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

Instead, your favourite hero was selfish, and placed his morals above the lives and existence of two entire universes.

I'm happy that Black Bolt didn't technically reject pulling the trigger, and was instead interrupted by T'Challa; I can still hope that he would have been a hero (or a king, as per Maximus' description of one) and done it.
Namor was the only one to realize how incredibly small and insignificant they all actually are in the grand scheme of things - how unimportant their morals are in comparison to the existence of a universe, let alone two.

[Mahes]

Thanos will probably want to see two universes get annihilated. I wouldn't be surprised if he killed the protectors of two different worlds just to watch.

Yep, to him it'd probably be the best offering he can give to his mistress Death if he could help wipe out 2 universes at once.

[ed2962]

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the Dark Knight Returns homage....

[Victor Freeman]

Namor pulling the trigger pretty much locks in the fact that T'challa is probably going to end him. The whole point T'chaka made about Mercy turning to tragedy has some merit when talking about T'challa not killing Namor. His mercy, just turned to tragedy in this issue. If he killed Namor, then Strange would not have had to do that and also they might have found a way. Who knows. Other than the whole aspect of T'challa bringing it up. Proxima also said he was already a dead man.

We also know that the Incursions can't be stopped and Cap also might be right (according to Hickman). So while I applaud Namor for his pragmatism. The fact that he actually killed a earth and then goes on a rampage with Thanos blowing up others--isn't a very good look.

It's pretty clear that the incursions are not what we think they are and it's going to be something other than blowing up earths that stops it.

[Jabare]

Namor's characters been this way for a while. This isn't knew. Plus Hickman's put them in a no win situation, making this the only option to save their world/universe.

Most of the time writer gives the hero an out, so a Batman or a Superman doesn't have to get his hands dirty or taint his morals etc.

Namor's done a lot of detestable things in recent years and has always been written as an anti-hero or a straight up villain. Back in the 40s and 50s Namor was a straight up hero, but times have changed.

Nevertheless Namor is not in the wrong in this situation. He does what needed to be done and what none of the other characters had the strength or guts to do, going by the context of this story. If Namor doesn't act the 616 is done for, according to Hickman. Now I look at character like Reed, T'Challa, tony and Strange and have to think there must be a better solution. But Hickman's written them into a corner. They were out of time and Namor stepped up.

I wouldn't call him a hero for what he did, but look at the alternative. He chose to kill one universe to save his own as a last resort.

[MindofShadow]

Wasn't Tony told something in Avengers about this? When he traveled through time and old Hawkeye told him something?



I was expecting some sort of reference but I didn't catch anything. Did I miss it?

[Trident]

Sure, but the outside people won't hold Namor any more responsible than they will everyone else. The blood is on all their hands just as much as it is on Namor's.

This is what I said last issue and every issue before. Seems like this is the first issue where people really realize it though. You know....instead of pointing fingers at certain characters.

It was good issue but I don't like where its going for the characters involved.

[Double 0]

Namor's characters been this way for a while. This isn't knew. Plus Hickman's put them in a no win situation, making this the only option to save their world/universe.

Most of the time writer gives the hero an out, so a Batman or a Superman doesn't have to get his hands dirty or taint his morals etc.

Namor's done a lot of detestable things in recent years and has always been written as an anti-hero or a straight up villain. Back in the 40s and 50s Namor was a straight up hero, but times have changed.

Nevertheless Namor is not in the wrong in this situation. He does what needed to be done and what none of the other characters had the strength or guts to do, going by the context of this story. If Namor doesn't act the 616 is done for, according to Hickman. Now I look at character like Reed, T'Challa, tony and Strange and have to think there must be a better solution. But Hickman's written them into a corner. They were out of time and Namor stepped up.

I wouldn't call him a hero for what he did, but look at the alternative. He chose to kill one universe to save his own as a last resort.

Pretty much.

Fact of the matter is that the rest of the Illuminati failed. T'Challa and Black Bolt may have been closer than most, but Namor did what needed to be done to save everyone. The cost was higher than any hero has had to deal with in Marvel or DC, but it had to be done.

And to be honest, I'm happy the rest of the Illuminati failed this time. Including if not especially T'Challa. This serves as a clear reminder, just as it probably did for the Great Society in that incursion they don't mention, just how much that alternative is needed. What blowing up an entire world really means.

Without Namor, everyone would have been goners. And now that it's over, it's time for the Illuminati to really show what they are all about. Whether they are going to give up, or finally start asking for help outside of their circle.

[king of hybrids]

Actually I wonder how well Superior Spidey would work with them? Lol.

that is actually a good question, and depends entirely on when in otto's tenure it was, and who (slott or gage) was writing

he'd certainly come to the same conclusion as namor, and he's (by the end at least) self-aware and egotisical to have less moral dilema over it

on the other hand, his ego/peter's possible influence would require him to attempt evacuation first before boom-boom
-----------------------

it's been a while, but was steve kicked off the illuminati before or after we got the "if one earth is destroyed both universes live" thing? if before, he's got some moral highground through ignorance; and might not attempt to murderize namor on the spot (he might want to give scott a call for that though). and at the end of the day, the only reason the good guys will get a chance to save everyone in time runs out is because namor made the hard choice

that said, i hope sue finds out what her husbands and ex-possible love interests have been up to. it would be rather unfair for namor and t'challa to lose everything that gave them meaning (even if t'challa's got 2 time displaced kids running about now) and reed only loses the smarts that keep screwing everyone over

[KOSLOX]

Pretty much.

Fact of the matter is that the rest of the Illuminati failed. T'Challa and Black Bolt may have been closer than most, but Namor did what needed to be done to save everyone. The cost was higher than any hero has had to deal with in Marvel or DC, but it had to be done.

And to be honest, I'm happy the rest of the Illuminati failed this time. Including if not especially T'Challa. This serves as a clear reminder, just as it probably did for the Great Society in that incursion they don't mention, just how much that alternative is needed. What blowing up an entire world really means.

Without Namor, everyone would have been goners. And now that it's over, it's time for the Illuminati to really show what they are all about. Whether they are going to give up, or finally start asking for help outside of their circle.

Based on that alt cover I'm guessing they will. And I'm guessing that they will have to stop the Cabal.

Also, Namor is going to be crushed if we find out that "the cake is a lie" and the incursions aren't what we think they are.

That would be absolutely devastating for his character.

[Vic Vega]

Namor's characters been this way for a while. This isn't knew. Plus Hickman's put them in a no win situation, making this the only option to save their world/universe.

Most of the time writer gives the hero an out, so a Batman or a Superman doesn't have to get his hands dirty or taint his morals etc.

Namor's done a lot of detestable things in recent years and has always been written as an anti-hero or a straight up villain. Back in the 40s and 50s Namor was a straight up hero, but times have changed.

Nevertheless Namor is not in the wrong in this situation. He does what needed to be done and what none of the other characters had the strength or guts to do, going by the context of this story. If Namor doesn't act the 616 is done for, according to Hickman. Now I look at character like Reed, T'Challa, tony and Strange and have to think there must be a better solution. But Hickman's written them into a corner.

Has he?

It's interesting that All-Powerful Future Franklin shows up in Avengers and not this book.

We already know that alternate Hank McCoys managed to subvert the incursions by blowing up thier own Earth.

As has been pointed out time and again, the Illuminati never did try to find the cause of the incursions or even if they could be stopped.

Reed has an near omnipotent demi god for a son.

They have options thry have never even tried, IMO.

[Username taken]

Namor did what had to be done to save two universes. However, doing the "dirty work" isn't equal to being heroic.

Taking innocent lives of men, women and children irregardless of the context is horrible.

Yes, trillions have been saved but billions have been lost. That's still a terrifying tragedy and it says a lot about other members of the Illuminati that they bluntly refused to do it at the last minute.

I have a minor nitpick though, if I remember correctly Hank McCoy practically destroyed a Ghost Box planet during Ellis's run. His refusal here to pull the trigger is odd because he's done some planet killing before.