New Avengers #21 Review (w/spoilers)

[Mark]

Since the discussion has moved away from the preview thread, I just wanted to reply to this here:


Let's make something clear, because your posts don't reflect an understanding of the situation as depicted in the comics.

We have been told (and shown with the incursion Hyperion survived), and it is the Illuminati's understanding, that if an incursion occurs unopposed, two universes die. This means trillions of trillions of deaths.

We have been told and shown, that if one of the two Earths is destroyed during an incursion, that Earth's universe survives, the other Earth survives, and the other Earth's universe survives. This means billions of deaths (if the Earth which is destroyed is as populated as 616-Earth) and trillions of trillions of people alive, not to mention their future.

What's important to note, however, is that the billions of people who die if an Earth is destroyed would have died anyway if the incursion had proceeded unopposed/unsolved.

Therefore, when faced with an incursion about to complete, as the Illuminati were in this issue, destroying the other Earth accomplishes nothing else than save the entire populations of the two universes minus the population of the destroyed Earth. It does not kill the billions living on the other Earth any more than not taking action, since not taking action means they die anyway.

Based on this premise, the Illuminati were absolutely right to have a weapon capable of destroying another world just in case (and they'd have needed one at the minimum for the dead Earths of the Mapmakers, even if they didn't want to use it against inhabited Earths), and Namor was absolutely right to pull the trigger this time.

Of course, Hickman could eventually reveal that the result of the unopposed incursions is not the destruction of universes but merely their displacement, that the universes' populations go to heaven or whatever. That's not what we've been shown so far and that's not the foundation upon which our heroes (even the former Great Society) operate.

What the Illuminati can be blamed for, however, is not seeking help from other heroes (that would not simply blow up the Earth), and possibly not looking for ways to evacuate the Earth (they've at least not been shown looking for ways to achieve this).

Nope, I disagree. The author has put a lot of work into the window dressing in this slimefest, he's cloaked it well with 'no choice' and 'which is better' when in reality this was all it was leading up to: murder by a group of heroes on a planetary scale despite a number of reasons discussed why they shouldn't have have to go this far. This is marvel's philosophy of life not mattering, something they showed with Hulkworld and have showed again here. He wanted the heroes to be shamed, he wanted them to be murderers and now he's done it and I doubt very much that he has the talent or even the desire to pull them back again. The next time one of these heroes tries to stop the Red Skull it won't be hero against villain, it'll be villain against villain.

[Mark]

Are you serious? Namor just saved trillions of lives. No one else had any other options and the rest were placing their self-worth above that of continued survival. Namor did what none of them could do.

I wonder if any of the people who just died feel that way.

[People Of The Earth]

Pretty much.

Fact of the matter is that the rest of the Illuminati failed. T'Challa and Black Bolt may have been closer than most, but Namor did what needed to be done to save everyone. The cost was higher than any hero has had to deal with in Marvel or DC, but it had to be done.

And to be honest, I'm happy the rest of the Illuminati failed this time. Including if not especially T'Challa. This serves as a clear reminder, just as it probably did for the Great Society in that incursion they don't mention, just how much that alternative is needed. What blowing up an entire world really means.

Without Namor, everyone would have been goners. And now that it's over, it's time for the Illuminati to really show what they are all about. Whether they are going to give up, or finally start asking for help outside of their circle.

But...we do know what they are all about already.
We saw what was their mettle in today's issue, when it was really tested for the first time.
They really showed how shallow their motivation was in face of certain extinction:

They went big and failed to deliver.

The end.

It's terrible in a sense, that for all their intellectual prominence, experience as leaders and Kings, they failed to embrace the realities of the task they went on tackling...
And, hilarious irony, the reason invoked for them bailing all of a sudden, when push came to shove ?
Morality ?
They downplayed, mindwiped and ousted Cap' of their group for the very reason that had them all bail in today's issue !
Hypocrisy coming full circle, call it karma otherwise...
If they are being half-decent, they will acknowledge Cap's reasonning next time they'll see him, given that he's aware of said mindwipe now.
But even that is doubtful: if they were half-decent, they wouldn't apparently go after Namor next issue *who just so happened to save their lives, the lives of their loved ones, of their friends and peoples, and of trillions and trillions of sentient beings across the entire 616 universe*.

T'challa and the others should be ashamed: not from their actions (building bombs, weapons, mindwiping Cap', pactising with elder demons), but from their inaction who would have costed everything to everyone.

Really disappointing.

[Prof. Warren]

This was a brilliant issue. Definitely brings everything that's been building in NA to a head and it does so in shattering fashion. What I love about the incursion storyline is that it presents a truly impossible moral dilemma. How do you weigh the cost of killing one world to save another? How do you bear the consequences of those actions? How do you even begin to take on a decision so monstrous? To take part in such a deed - even to take part in the contemplating of it - is enough to taint anyone forever. And this issue portrays that perfectly. There truly is no right or wrong. Either choice will lead to atrocity. Has Namor made the right choice? Will it even work as planned? We'll see, but certainly Hickman's depiction of the struggle that took place within the Illuminati this issue was masterfully done.

[MindofShadow]

But...we do know what they are all about already.
We saw what was their mettle in today's issue, when it was really tested for the first time.
They really showed how shallow their motivation was in face of certain extinction:

They went big and failed to deliver.

The end.

It's terrible in a sense, that for all their intellectual prominence, experience as leaders and Kings, they failed to embrace the realities of the task they went on tackling...
And, hilarious irony, the reason invoked for them bailing all of a sudden, when push came to shove ?
Morality ?
They downplayed, mindwiped and ousted Cap' of their group for the very reason that had them all bail in today's issue !
Hypocrisy coming full circle, call it karma otherwise...
If they are being half-decent, they will acknowledge Cap's reasonning next time they'll see him, given that he's aware of said mindwipe now.
But even that is doubtful: if they were half-decent, they wouldn't apparently go after Namor next issue *who just so happened to save their lives, the lives of their loved ones, of their friends and peoples, and of trillions and trillions of sentient beings across the entire 616 universe*.

T'challa and the others should be ashamed: not from their actions (building bombs, weapons, mindwiping Cap', pactising with elder demons), but from their inaction who would have costed everything to everyone.

Really disappointing.

It is a lot easier to say you are willing to pull the trigger than it is to actually pull it.

They all thought they could. Only Namor and Strange actually could

[Mark]

Yes that's part of the problem though, the author never allowed for any other possibility even possiblities that would have made sense in the story. He just wanted the heroes to kill. This won't stain them forever as in the mu bad deeds never linger, but consider this everyone who's saying Namor did the right thing, he's just singlehandedly killed more people than the Red Skull and all of the other supervillains combined and he did it with the help of people who once would have given their souls to stop such and act. If that's Hickman's definition of heroism I cringe to think what his definition of villainy is.

This was a brilliant issue. Definitely brings everything that's been building in NA to a head and it does so in shattering fashion. What I love about the incursion storyline is that it presents a truly impossible moral dilemma. How do you weigh the cost of killing one world to save another? How do you bear the consequences of those actions? How do you even begin to take on a decision so monstrous? To take part in such a deed - even to take part in the contemplating of it - is enough to taint anyone forever. And this issue portrays that perfectly. There truly is no right or wrong. Either choice will lead to atrocity. Has Namor made the right choice? Will it even work as planned? We'll see, but certainly Hickman's depiction of the struggle that took place within the Illuminati this issue was masterfully done.

[Vic Vega]

It is a lot easier to say you are willing to pull the trigger than it is to actually pull it.

They all thought they could. Only Namor and Strange actually could

And Doc only could if he were allowed to go up in suicidal mystic berserker flames along with his victims.

In his right mind all he could do was bitch about not being allowed to go Cuthulu.

[Daeron]

It is a lot easier to say you are willing to pull the trigger than it is to actually pull it.

They all thought they could. Only Namor and Strange actually could

I think Strange was only willing because it involved sacrificing himself. That's why he's pissed, now he has to live with having used the Blood Bible.

[People Of The Earth]

Based on that alt cover I'm guessing they will. And I'm guessing that they will have to stop the Cabal.

Also, Namor is going to be crushed if we find out that "the cake is a lie" and the incursions aren't what we think they are.

That would be absolutely devastating for his character.

They witnessed other dimensions dealing with Incursions, dimensions in which some weren't in collusion with a Black Swan in any shape or form.

The Incursions are real. They were probably engineered by the Great Destroyer, true, but we knew that already, didn't we ? I fully expect the Swans to be nothing more but slow-burning predators, vultures of sort.

They might take advantage of their preys or manipulate them to bring them where they need them to be, but the whole set-up of the Incursions isn't a fraud.
Black Panther did stumble on the first Incursion by accident - dumb luck.
Had it occured in the middle of the Pacific or of the Adirondacks, Earth-616 would be gone by now.

Maybe the more worlds are being destroyed, especially populated worlds full of life, the more their master is pleased or the more powerful they become or something ? I can't figure the Swans motives right now, Hickman has barely scratched the surface so far on this matter...

[AcesX1X]

at the moment it mattered most, there were no other options. there was take action and there was accept your fate. all of them chose to accept their fate, essentially giving up. well, all except one - who chose life over death.

[KOSLOX]

They witnessed other dimensions dealing with Incursions, dimensions in which some weren't in collusion with a Black Swan in any shape or form.

The only person we know, or at least assume we know, who has witnessed an incursion taken to the end is Hyperion (and maybe Scientist Supreme). What the illuminati saw was other beings destroying various Earths before that could happen. They really don't know for sure what they have been told is true. Hyperion managed to survive an incursion, maybe they don't destroy the other universes at all, they could be shifting to an alternate plane.

The problem here is an unreliable narrator.

[Dog]

Yes that's part of the problem though, the author never allowed for any other possibility even possiblities that would have made sense in the story. He just wanted the heroes to kill. This won't stain them forever as in the mu bad deeds never linger, but consider this everyone who's saying Namor did the right thing, he's just singlehandedly killed more people than the Red Skull and all of the other supervillains combined and he did it with the help of people who once would have given their souls to stop such and act. If that's Hickman's definition of heroism I cringe to think what his definition of villainy is.

You could instead say that he saved two universes when irresponsible men failed to act. Remember, if one Earth doesn't go, everyone in both realities does. Leaders make decisions with people's lives every day, and they're often to serve the greater good. Not everything has a squeaky clean, easy outcome.

[KOSLOX]

You could instead say that he saved two universes when irresponsible men failed to act. Remember, if one Earth doesn't go, everyone in both realities does. Leaders make decisions with people's lives every day, and they're often to serve the greater good. Not everything has a squeaky clean, easy outcome.

That's what we are being told by Black Swan. I'm guessing that isn't the entire story though.

She's specifically recruiting heroes. If it was just about blowing up worlds get villains to do it. There's something being witheld from the Illuminati and the readers which I'm guessing will unfold over the next year.

[Dog]

That's what we are being told by Black Swan. I'm guessing that isn't the entire story though.

Isn't that what Panther has documented using the Bridge?

[Prof. Warren]

Yes that's part of the problem though, the author never allowed for any other possibility even possiblities that would have made sense in the story. He just wanted the heroes to kill. This won't stain them forever as in the mu bad deeds never linger, but consider this everyone who's saying Namor did the right thing, he's just singlehandedly killed more people than the Red Skull and all of the other supervillains combined and he did it with the help of people who once would have given their souls to stop such and act. If that's Hickman's definition of heroism I cringe to think what his definition of villainy is.

Not giving the heroes a clean option to go with is whole point of this storyline. Heroic fiction typically gives the protagonist a high road to take, some option that will leave their morality intact when all is said and done. This story, however, denies the protagonists any easy "out." I don't believe it's about Hickman wanting the heroes to kill but rather putting them into a scenario that heroic fiction usually backs away from. If Hickman had allowed for a way around the big choice to destroy a world, it wouldn't be much of a story - just another instance of "Whew, glad we found a way around that!" By activating the bomb, Namor isn't necessarily doing the '"right" thing at all. This is a story about decisions so gargantuan in their consequences that they reside outside of normal definitions of right or wrong.