Captain Marvel (MCU) vs. the Justice League (DCEU)

[Pendaran]

Thor: She has him in flight speed but...that's it. Fighting up close his aura will be zapping her as they fight, at range he has enormous bolts of lightning that flattened Thanos even with 6 gems, and frankly, he'd win in the opening seconds.

Just of curiosity, are you suggesting that Thor and Captain Marvel have equivalent durability then for instance? In terms of their comparative physicality overall, what do you feel their parity that you seem to be suggesting here is based on?

[Username taken]

I thought there was a lot of inconsistency. For instance, Yonn-Slog wants Carol to fight him without using the energy powers. Yet he can take a blast that knocks him a hundred feet into a solid rock wall. True it pretty much takes him out but he's alive and fairly uninjured. Maybe it was the suit protecting him but, in that case, how are either of them going to beat the other while wearing those suits?

The Kree in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were tough but not remotely that superhuman.

As pointed out, the strength and durability levels of the Skrull also keep changing.

Are there different races of Kree? In Agents, they were all blue. So some look just like white humans?

Of course, her strength once unrestrained goes from Captain America to Hulk+ and her durability to shrugging off multiple nukes or things worse than nukes.

Agreed.

The movie was quite inconsistent with that stuff. We saw normal humans struggle with the Kree but it shouldn’t even be a fight considering how much damage Yonn Rog took at the end (a human shouldn’t be able to hurt them at all).

Same with the Skrulls.

[Pendaran]

I checked back out of curiosity and I did indeed make a decision on the star feat last year in the Cinematic Thor vs Cinematic Superman thread.

Man I didn't even remember that.

That was a year ago though. What do you guys think? Should we wait to see in Endgame?

Considering the Sokovia bits people are noting as well and the ruling that goes along with it, I don't see how that doesn't make the Thor performance a massive outlier from basically anything at all to that point unless Endgame gives him something else.

[Beadle]

"She has dome" is what I will now declare in any rumble Carol wins.

Then she cannot compete in the Arena.

No dome.

[theoneandonly]

but she has dome. she could place it around the arena if that's allowed. must ask guy about this.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I thought there was a lot of inconsistency. For instance, Yonn-Slog wants Carol to fight him without using the energy powers. Yet he can take a blast that knocks him a hundred feet into a solid rock wall. True it pretty much takes him out but he's alive and fairly uninjured. Maybe it was the suit protecting him but, in that case, how are either of them going to beat the other while wearing those suits?

The Kree in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were tough but not remotely that superhuman.

As pointed out, the strength and durability levels of the Skrull also keep changing.

Are there different races of Kree? In Agents, they were all blue. So some look just like white humans?

Of course, her strength once unrestrained goes from Captain America to Hulk+ and her durability to shrugging off multiple nukes or things worse than nukes.

Remember, we see Kree in Guardians of the Galaxy, including the black Kree guy from Captain Marvel (Kogarth?) and Ronan, the guy that swatted Drax like a bug and was unharmed by a fighter jet ramming into him.

As for Yon-Rogg thing to get Carol to go have to hand instead of using energy blasts, I'm not sure what's so confusing about that, considering that her photon blasts were sending him flying while she was still limitered, and now she was channeling enough power that he had been trying to escape woke in a space fighter. If she had powered down like he had wanted, he may have at least been able to defeat her pure skill like he had been easier, but she ignored his appeal top her price and was able to oneshot him ease while explicitly trying to keep him alive.

As for the Skrull, one idea is that, their shape shifting works on the genetic level (though its not necessarily identical, since Talos does say that it requires some degree of skill, and we see him still using his natural voice while in the form of a surfer girl), different forms may reduce/increase their physical stats to some degree.

[The Arbiter]

Just as a reminder to the people arguing she took nuclear levels of force or worse:
https://youtu.be/gXOugO7-xTA

The first 10 seconds. Those are clearly NOT nuke or even MOAB level. That's because she blew them up before they detonated properly. Like how you can blow up real world nukes with grenades and what not without them actually going nuclear. You can compare her size to the explosions as she enters them.

[rhyvurg]

Just of curiosity, are you suggesting that Thor and Captain Marvel have equivalent durability then for instance? In terms of their comparative physicality overall, what do you feel their parity that you seem to be suggesting here is based on?

Well I know that with the whole no other sites rule I can't just post a link that would make this far easier, but someone on youtube who does all kinds of MCU calculations figured out the size of the dwarf star by looking at the size of the beam relative to the star, and the beam's size by looking at Thor's size relative to the aperature the beam was passing though, and used that to figure out the star's output (many orders of magnitude lower than our own) and how much of that energy would be hitting Thor based on his size, and concluded he was nearly killed (and would have died if not for Stormbreaker) by something like several thousand Tsar nukes. And considering they took the time to have Tyrion say "you will be taking the full force of a star" I think the feat is exactly what was intended for him. Also he figured that Thor's greatest showing of physical strength (breaking the chains in Muspelheim) places him at around 325 tons, assuming they're the equivalent of modern stainless steel chains, a reasonable assumption I believe considering one of them is what Surtur used to restrain his rocket dragon.

[rhyvurg]

The pod itself was dead for longer than 15 seconds. She and the pod were both falling at terminal velocity.

I would...not see it that way.

Story reasons? That its actually easy to lift away a 130 lb woman from something than to stop the force of her limbs? Happens all the time in fiction. The fact is, she decides to flex herself and multiple people are just thrown from her.

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Then you are admitting that there was heat? Then why are you discounting it?

I can't really "admit" something that was plainly evident, of course there was heat. For a few seconds, and it stopped. That means the pod slowed down.

Nobody is saying that there was an impact in that scene, the impact happened earlier. But taking both scenes together, she can clearly take both the heat from reentry, and the impact from hitting the ground at terminal velocity.

I disagree completely, she was demonstrably not in freefall for more than a few seconds.

I don't see what her aura has to do with it.

It shows her size relative to the missile, which lets us gauge it's size in turn.

Their intended detonations were massive blasts seen from orbit. Like, significant fractions of continents. Much larger than any nuclear bombs ever made.

Impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the planet they were dropped on. For all you know those were small islands, not continents.

The blasts Carol went through were them not detonating as intended. Even then, from the ground it was clearly a massive, MOAB-level blast. Not a nuke, but the closest thing to a nuke in conventional bomb territory.

Not even close, again the size of her aura relative to the explosions lets us gauge their size, and the blasts were simply not that big, and she didn't even take those, she passed through the lingering fireballs. It is not a feat of durability.

"Kinetic" doesn't mean anything, there are many instances in fiction where "kinetic" just means some kind of fancy weapon system (see "Out of the Dark, by David Weber, where "kinetic weapons" mean space based deathrays). The fact is, we see the same warheads being used earlier in the film, and kinetic or not, they still pack massive damage potential.

Like I said, "if" kinetic means to them what it means to us.

This is a valid point. However, you also have to count her baseline durability, as in the case of walking away from falling at terminal velocity, at the lowest point in her powers earlier in the film. Its perfectly reasonable to have a level of durability, and on top of that, be boosted by an activated aura. I highly doubt, for example, that Flash has the force potential to knock her out before she gets going. Whether Diana is fast enough to do this within the standard rumbles distance is still up in the air, and is being discussed in several threads.

Been over this, and no. If her baseline pre-full power durability was that high, how were skrulls smacking her around? Keep in mind Nick Fury fought and killed one. Flash's offensive potential doesn't come from punches, it comes from his lightning. And it is lightning, they used it for a power source. Diana has bullet time speed and has been shown to be superhumanly fast on her feet several times.

Basically, there are some Leaguers Carol can take, but there are three she absolutely can not.

[Pendaran]

Well I know that with the whole no other sites rule I can't just post a link that would make this far easier, but someone on youtube who does all kinds of MCU calculations figured out the size of the dwarf star by looking at the size of the beam relative to the star, and the beam's size by looking at Thor's size relative to the aperature the beam was passing though, and used that to figure out the star's output (many orders of magnitude lower than our own) and how much of that energy would be hitting Thor based on his size, and concluded he was nearly killed (and would have died if not for Stormbreaker) by something like several thousand Tsar nukes. And considering they took the time to have Tyrion say "you will be taking the full force of a star" I think the feat is exactly what was intended for him. Also he figured that Thor's greatest showing of physical strength (breaking the chains in Muspelheim) places him at around 325 tons, assuming they're the equivalent of modern stainless steel chains, a reasonable assumption I believe considering one of them is what Surtur used to restrain his rocket dragon.

Despite the ruling on this site, this is the showing you want to invoke? Despite nothing else Thor ever did before then coming close to anything you're talking about with regards "several thousand Tsar nukes", especially going by the calculations you want to point to?

You're in another post directly saying things like:

Been over this, and no. If her baseline pre-full power durability was that high, how were skrulls smacking her around? Keep in mind Nick Fury fought and killed one. Flash's offensive potential doesn't come from punches, it comes from his lightning. And it is lightning, they used it for a power source. Diana has bullet time speed and has been shown to be superhumanly fast on her feet several times.

Which makes it seem like inconsistencies and/or having to do something more than once count for some characters as far as talking about their capacity, but not Thor.

Before you feel that I'm saying any given thing about Carol's capacity at this point, I'm not, I asked "what do you make these statements as based on" and your answer apparently seems to boil down to a showing that's been ruled against, and otherwise talking about characters and how frequently they do a thing, and showing inconsistencies. These seem to be contradictory things to say when you are talking about one showing for Thor he's never done anything even close to across multiple movies beforehand.

[Siriel]

Not much to say since I haven't seen Captain Marvel but since it seems to have been brought up, I just want to note again that Stormbreaker beating the Gauntlet is per WoG because the dwarf who forged the Gauntlet did some vague thing to sabotage it, not because Stormbreaker is actually more powerful.

Also that any 'calc' done regarding the star is super hyper dubious even among calcs and before taking into account what an outlier it'd be, since it acts nothing like a real star.

[Guy1]

MODERATOR

Regarding the Sokovia Explosion Feat In Age Of Ultron: Mod Ruled To Be Less Powerful Than A Nuke.

MODERATOR

Having seen Thor: Ragnarok and JL and reviewed the past feats, I feel comfortable in saying that Supes and Wondy should be fine here. Wonder Woman's multiple bullet timing feats put her clearly faster than Hela, and with Superman's new power boost, he should be able to handle Hela.

Regarding the nuke VS Sokovia, I would have to put taking the nuke over taking part of the explosion of Sokovia. In fact, I think abmccray summed up Sokovia best.

Firstly, because it's not a more powerful explosion. If the floating city was vaporized or something, it would be, but it wasn't.

From the movie itself, the floating city had a vibranium core. Directing energy at that core would cause the floating city to break apart into smaller pieces, probably along "fault lines" and not destroy the planet. So Thor shot energy at it, Iron Man contained it in a specific spot, it caused a book at the correct spot, and caused the floating island to break into smaller, more manageable chunks.

That's why there's no way to quantify it. We don't know the level of "boom" it took to do that, we don't know the force of the explosion after, we don't really know anything.

Basically what they did was what was done to the asteroid in Armageddon (in that case, they put a nuke near the center of it to break it) or what Freeza did to Namek, only on something with an unstable core and an unknown structure, laced with a non real substance. Therefore, it becomes "something, but who knows." And, also similar to Freeza, since he was ON the planet when it blew up, we don't grant him as surviving *that* planet buster, as he wasn't in the focal point - we just say "survived being on the surface of a planet exploding."

I also really don't see Tony taking a nuclear explosion either.

In short,
Superman and Wonder Woman can handle Hela due to speed and recent power ups, the nuke is over Sokovia, and MCU Tony's armors are not surviving nukes.

MODERATOR

Regarding the Star feat, honestly, it's kinda drastically far above what Thor's been doing in the movies so far. Even with his power boost in Ragnarok. Not to mention it temporarily killed him until Stormbringer revived him. For Now, I'd say we put the star feat on the backburner, see if he gets an equivalent feat in the next big movie. If we can get a feat that at least matches it, I'll be fine giving it to him.

So yeah. Even without getting into what an outlier the star feat is, we aren't using it anyway.

And given that the Sokovia explosion KOed Thor, as MOD RULED, a Tsar Bomba would wreck him. Not to mention, Thor having spent multiple movies being hurt and effed up by nothing approaching that.

So, bombas? Not gonna fly. Thor would be obliterated. We are dropping the star feat debate and Thor is below nukes.

[rhyvurg]

Despite the ruling on this site, this is the showing you want to invoke? Despite nothing else Thor ever did before then coming close to anything you're talking about with regards "several thousand Tsar nukes", especially going by the calculations you want to point to?

You're in another post directly saying things like:



Which makes it seem like inconsistencies and/or having to do something more than once count for some characters as far as talking about their capacity, but not Thor.

Before you feel that I'm saying any given thing about Carol's capacity at this point, I'm not, I asked "what do you make these statements as based on" and your answer apparently seems to boil down to a showing that's been ruled against, and otherwise talking about characters and how frequently they do a thing, and showing inconsistencies. These seem to be contradictory things to say when you are talking about one showing for Thor he's never done anything even close to across multiple movies beforehand.

I don't see the inconsistency, honestly. Hela hit him a couple times after his full upgrade but there was no sign of blood, no indication she actually broke his skin rather than just put some holes in his leather shirt, and on the ship Thanos had the Power Stone and the Black Order, and the arguably weakest of them had a weapon that easily penetrated Vision's vibranium body. The star is the only time since he got to full power that we actually saw what it took to lay Thor out, and again, it literally would have killed him if not the the axe. On his own, he would have died. Until more feats are presented in Endgame, I see no reason this one should be discounted.

EDIT: Ah well, mod ruled.

[Sharpandpointies]

Just to note: Terminal Velocity isn't re-entry velocity. The two things are different. Generalized explanation follows.

Terminal velocity for a human is somewhere around 120 mph, depending on how the body is falling. It doesn't matter how high one starts, as the air gets more dense, one slows down (without igniting). This is why I object to the 'Glory Feat In Buffy For Surviving Re-entry', because it simply doesn't work that way. People have fallen from truly ridiculous heights, not ignited, slowed down once the air got thick enough, and deployed parachutes just fine.

Re-entry velocity has more to do with the fact that something is orbiting at truly insane velocity (at 150 miles up, it's about 17000 mph, or so a cursory check reveals) to keep itself from 'falling' into the gravity well, and accelerates into orbit in order to achieve said velocity. At THAT velocity, re-entering the atmosphere isn't just going to 'slow down' this whatever it is to its normal 'terminal velocity'. And at that speed, air gets massively compressed in front of the re-entering object, which is what causes the tremendous heat.

All of this is rather nicely explained in various places, but I personally recommend the XKCD book 'What if? Serious Scientific Answers To Absurd Hypothetical Questions'. Before people question the knowledge of a webcomic author, he is an actual rocket scientist.

Also, it's a really fun read.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Thor after his ragnarok awakening only has durablity feats feom the rest of that movie and infinity war. Everything that happened prior is irrelevant because Thoi hadn't awakened yet.

As for Captain Marcel, I just saw it. I don't know. I think WW could blitz and just stab her. Same for Flash, although he hasn't shown the damage output to even Ko her.

Carol's strength is defintely up their in full aura, but her durability isn't, since she was kinda flying through the explosions as they were happenning.