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  1. #61

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    Wait... so Carol Danvers took the dead Kree scientist's name as her hero name?

  2. #62
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basara View Post
    Carol stomps through everyone until she reaches Wonder Woman, who is way too fast for Carol and actually has the power to stop her.

    In the MCU fights, Bleeding Edge Tony probably gives Carol a pretty good fight, but I think he falls eventually. Carol falls to Thor with Stormbreaker. She doesn't yet have Thor's durability feats of going toe to toe with Hulk twice, and as powerful as she is, she doesn't have a power feat like Stormbreaker actually injuring a fully powered with all 6 Infinity Stones Thanos.
    I was going to argue about this but then I stopped and accepted that there is enough uncertainty about CM's best durability feat that, until we have more feats, this is going to be something we argue either way depending on our opinions of that feat. Right now, we have all of a couple of minutes of CM at full power.

    I suspect arguing about CM's takeoff speed would end with the same arguments. At the end, she runs and takes off from the ground George Reeves style but she easily keeps pace with a ship that is accelerating to more than light speed and seems to cover a considerable distance from a standing start very quickly.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 03-10-2019 at 10:03 PM.
    Power with Girl is better.

  3. #63
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    After taking in all comments so far, I'm thinking she's stopping at Superman due to reflex speed. She's probably faster than him in straight-line travel speed, but that's not helpful in a fight. Her blasts are probably able to hurt him, but he's never getting hit. I also think that Carol needs to "activate" per powers, for lack of a better term, before she gets access to her full durability and damage output (although her baseline durability isn't bad, given that she survives reentry very early in the film). Diana is toast, won't be able to reach her before she gets to the air. Flash can reach her, but can't hit hard enough to knock her out before she powers up. The rest just go down outright.

    Re. bonus fights, she outclasses Thor in speed and maneuverability, but Thor has higher damage output. If she plays it smart, she avoids Stormbreaker and whittles him down. Thor does get a chance of winning with the off Stormbreaker hit, which should (I think) one-shot, or at the very least, severely injure.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    I have now seen Captain Marvel, these are notes taken during the movie, not remembered after the fact.

    Her training with Jude Law does suggest a good level of skill, so she can handle herself.

    Her first fight on the skrull ship demonstrated enhanced strength, looked to be around Cap's level. That big skrull didn't seem to give a shit though. She seemed to need her photon blasts for propulsion rather than having a separate flight power.

    Falling into Blockbuster was a pretty good feat of durability, but I would absolutely not call it a reentry fall, the escape pod was obviously not in freefall for most of the trip down (it barely looked like it heated up) and she fell on her own for maybe 2 seconds before impact. If nothing else her minimal effect on the store proves she was not at terminal velocity.

    Train scene, she might be close to Cap's strength but she'll never beat him in the hundred meter dash. Hi Stan. For some reason normal humans were able to restrain her, for a second. Skrull took that shock from the train like a champ, well done. Fury handled himself well enough against a Skrull, who have been established to be stronger and tougher than a human.

    Oh, no such luck in round 2 Nick. Ouch.

    Nothing remarkable for a while, her powers seem to have a heat, kinetic and electric quality as needed. Blasts through metal and concrete, standard stuff.

    Reducing the Skrull to refugees is a waste.

    Finally, full power scene. Seems to have made her physically stronger to some degree, blasts powered up to the point she's pushed back. Blasts don't seem to actually hurt anyone more now though, but she is much more capable at Aoe's. Side note, this guy is the least imaginative user of a telekinetic effect I've seen in years, was this his first day with those gloves? That ship Jude Law got in is pretty tight though. Is this the reentry scene people talked about? Because that's not what happened. Almost no sign of heat on the ship itself suggests it's not freefall (or wasn't for more than a few seconds), and she she was barely above cloud level when she let go and I saw no sign she actually impacted the ground, there was a dust cloud but I believe that was her flight thrust, not to mention her body didn't look like it hit anything, there was no movement, no shock from hitting anything. Also there's the fact the dust cloud was kicked up when she was like 40-50 feet off the ground.

    Okay, Ronan missile time. She pushed one back and while that's impressive it's not actually that big, comparatively speaking. Also, was it strength alone? How much was her flight thrust? I honestly could not say. The missiles went through a chain reaction but it's nowhere near the nuclear level some implied and she didn't actually tank any of the blasts, she flew through the lingering fireballs. Plus they were not anywhere close to what we saw as their intended detonation, the missiles blew up but the warheads did not detonate, or whatever the technology they use does (really impossible to say). She did cry out when the Kree fighters shot her though, she seems to be more of a glass cannon with far more offense than defense, though she did destroy one by belly flopping it, but I suppose that could be attributed to her aura. Flying through the ship was very cool, but the movie showed her firing her photon blasts around inside it, she didn't just charge the ship and waste it, she attacked from inside. Also she can...charge spaceship engines? Kind of out of left field but whatever. Also I'm not sure if her leaving Earth means she doesn't need her mask in space?


    As for how she would fare against the League.

    Batman: Bat-paste, even with the armor he has no chance, Superman when even slightly recovered from K-gas was no-selling it.
    Cyborg: Hosed, poor bastard. He lacks the flight speed to be a serious threat, but to his credit his energy weapon at least caused Superman pain. It's not going to help him here.
    Aquaman: No ranged game, he might be strong enough to hurt her if he could get to her, but he can't.
    The Flash: Too fast for her, he has a one in a thousand chance to build up enough of a charge to possibly electrocute her but I don't think it's likely. Once she's in the air she can start blasting around.
    Wonder Woman: Hard stop for Carol, Diana is insanely fast on her feet and has multiple bullet time feats, and it doesn't take anywhere near Diana's level of strength, especially with the sword, to harm Carol.
    Superman: Not even a fight. Too fast, too tough, too strong, he can match her ranged game, he has every advantage. Carol is possibly strong enough to push against the thrust and weight of a missile the size of a small building, Superman tows around enormous ships tipped over on their side (as in, pulling against that incredible friction).

    Bonus rounds:
    Hulk: Definitely can take her if he can catch her, Hulk has the reflexes to catch an ejection seat but in traversal he comes up short.
    Iron Man: I doubt it, he might delay her for a while but I can't see even this armor taking her down.
    Thor: She has him in flight speed but...that's it. Fighting up close his aura will be zapping her as they fight, at range he has enormous bolts of lightning that flattened Thanos even with 6 gems, and frankly, he'd win in the opening seconds. Carol opens up with energy blasts, Thor throws the axe, it goes through those beams just like it did a 6-stone blast from the IG and blasts through her like a husky kid goes through a pie.
    Last edited by rhyvurg; 03-11-2019 at 03:47 PM.
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
    Robert E. Howard

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    A couple of points:

    - Her training with Yon-Rogg means that her base stats while limited means that she's comparable with a guy that subsequently walked off a jet crash and remained relatively unharmed (though rather decisively beaten) when blasted a hundred feet into solid stone at high speeds.

    - I'm pretty sure that a sky diver at terminal velocity wouldn't actually fall *through* a commercial Blockbuster's roof.

    - The humans were able to restrain her because she didn't want to splatter a bunch of Good Samaritans in passing, and the moment she wanted to, she just casually shrugged then all off at once.

    - Catching a missile that was rocketing down from orbit fast enough to bury itself the grounds (from what we saw them do earlier) without it smashing her arms into her face would indicate that her arms are capable of sustaining that momentum.

    - I don't recall the space ships doing any actual damage to her, especially since she started busting then up with her body partway through.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    A couple of points:

    - Her training with Yon-Rogg means that her base stats while limited means that she's comparable with a guy that subsequently walked off a jet crash and remained relatively unharmed (though rather decisively beaten) when blasted a hundred feet into solid stone at high speeds.

    - I'm pretty sure that a sky diver at terminal velocity wouldn't actually fall *through* a commercial Blockbuster's roof.

    - The humans were able to restrain her because she didn't want to splatter a bunch of Good Samaritans in passing, and the moment she wanted to, she just casually shrugged then all off at once.

    - Catching a missile that was rocketing down from orbit fast enough to bury itself the grounds (from what we saw them do earlier) without it smashing her arms into her face would indicate that her arms are capable of sustaining that momentum.

    - I don't recall the space ships doing any actual damage to her, especially since she started busting then up with her body partway through.
    - True but at the same time Kree were fighting Skrull pretty evenly, yet Fury was able to defeat a Skrull hand to hand. And they were throwing each other around about the same way Cap tosses humans around, so it looks comparable to me.

    - That greatly depends on the building, which isn't really a standardized thing.

    - Eh, it's still weird to me.

    - Fair, but there's still some flight thrust involved in pushing it back. It literally can't not be a factor.

    - She cried out in pain from both the shots that hit her, so she clearly felt it. And going through one bodily is why I suggested it's due to her aura.
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
    Robert E. Howard

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Given it seems to be the same energy she's using for flight, blasts, and whatever else, I'm not sure flight thrust is a meaningful distinction. Even if it was 100% her flight force, that just means she can shoot you with that amount of power. For rumbles it seems rather the same.

  8. #68
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    @rhyvurg - Have seen the movie twice, and you may be misremembering a number of things:

    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    Falling into Blockbuster was a pretty good feat of durability, but I would absolutely not call it a reentry fall, the escape pod was obviously not in freefall for most of the trip down (it barely looked like it heated up) and she fell on her own for maybe 2 seconds before impact. If nothing else her minimal effect on the store proves she was not at terminal velocity.
    Terminal velocity does not mean she would fall with an explosion, it would affect the store exactly as she did in the film. Terminal velocity is the same for all objects. You are correct that the shuttle diddn't heat up during reentry, but that has nothing to do with falling at terminal velocity, only that the shuttle decelerated upon reentry. Given that the shuttle was clearly dead and out of thrust while still thousands of feet in the air, she would have still hit the ground at terminal velocity.

    Train scene, she might be close to Cap's strength but she'll never beat him in the hundred meter dash. Hi Stan. For some reason normal humans were able to restrain her, for a second. Skrull took that shock from the train like a champ, well done. Fury handled himself well enough against a Skrull, who have been established to be stronger and tougher than a human.
    - Agreed on not matching Cap's speed
    - Normal humans did not restrain her, they "tried" to restrain her, which she effortlessly shrugged off to the best extent not to hurt any of them

    Finally, full power scene. Seems to have made her physically stronger to some degree, blasts powered up to the point she's pushed back. Blasts don't seem to actually hurt anyone more now though, but she is much more capable at Aoe's.
    I would think she would be able to modulate her blasts.

    Is this the reentry scene people talked about? Because that's not what happened. Almost no sign of heat on the ship itself suggests it's not freefall (or wasn't for more than a few seconds), and she she was barely above cloud level when she let go and I saw no sign she actually impacted the ground, there was a dust cloud but I believe that was her flight thrust, not to mention her body didn't look like it hit anything, there was no movement, no shock from hitting anything. Also there's the fact the dust cloud was kicked up when she was like 40-50 feet off the ground.
    This is the scene you're misremembering. She gets on top of Jude Law's pod, which rockets to earth. There is clearly heat from reentry, and both her and the pod glow red while entering the atmosphere. Jude Law manages to shake her off, and she falls down to earth. You are correct she never hits the ground, as she activates thrust at the last moment. But those two instances (first: hitting the ground at terminal velocity; second: taking atmospheric reentry) together make a solid case for taking atmospheric reentry.

    Okay, Ronan missile time. She pushed one back and while that's impressive it's not actually that big, comparatively speaking. Also, was it strength alone? How much was her flight thrust? I honestly could not say.
    Its... big. Building-sized big. Maybe space-whale sized big. It was a big missile. Also, as noted, she seems to have "Iron Man" style flight powers, in that her thrusters are also her main form of attack/force projection, so for this reason I don't think it matters much to distinguish between flight thrust and how much force she can exert.

    The missiles went through a chain reaction but it's nowhere near the nuclear level some implied and she didn't actually tank any of the blasts, she flew through the lingering fireballs. Plus they were not anywhere close to what we saw as their intended detonation, the missiles blew up but the warheads did not detonate, or whatever the technology they use does (really impossible to say).
    This was already noted. While not nuke-level detonations, this was still clearly a massive explosion seen from the ground. Like, MOAB level.

    She did cry out when the Kree fighters shot her though, she seems to be more of a glass cannon with far more offense than defense, though she did destroy one by belly flopping it, but I suppose that could be attributed to her aura. Flying through the ship was very cool, but the movie showed her firing her photon blasts around inside it, she didn't just charge the ship and waste it, she attacked from inside.
    See, I don't think its useful to make a distinction between her durability and "aura". She's clearly putting an energy field around herself, and she's using it to fly, shoot and smash through stuff with it. Is it her innate, physical durability or is it boosted somehow by her aura? I would say it makes no distinction on a fight, so long as the aura remains activated.

    Also she can...charge spaceship engines? Kind of out of left field but whatever. Also I'm not sure if her leaving Earth means she doesn't need her mask in space?
    - Nothing in the scene implies she can charge starship engines. The starship has a lightspeed drive /or a jump drive (not sure on this) on it. She merely flew alongside it.

    - Flying in space without a mask seemed strange to me too.

  9. #69
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    - She cried out in pain from both the shots that hit her, so she clearly felt it. And going through one bodily is why I suggested it's due to her aura.
    For purposes of combat, that doesn't really mean anything. Hulk cried out in pain in Avengers from taking autocannon fire, it doesn't mean it damaged him or even cut his skin. Nothing from those spaceship shots showed them damaging her in any way.
    Last edited by Twickster; 03-11-2019 at 07:53 PM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member rhyvurg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Given it seems to be the same energy she's using for flight, blasts, and whatever else, I'm not sure flight thrust is a meaningful distinction. Even if it was 100% her flight force, that just means she can shoot you with that amount of power. For rumbles it seems rather the same.
    I was referring more to how hard she could throw a punch, rather than total offensive power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twickster View Post
    @rhyvurg - Have seen the movie twice, and you may be misremembering a number of things:
    Like I said, I took notes while watching, I didn;t write that after the fact.

    Terminal velocity does not mean she would fall with an explosion, it would affect the store exactly as she did in the film. Terminal velocity is the same for all objects. You are correct that the shuttle diddn't heat up during reentry, but that has nothing to do with falling at terminal velocity, only that the shuttle decelerated upon reentry. Given that the shuttle was clearly dead and out of thrust while still thousands of feet in the air, she would have still hit the ground at terminal velocity.
    There would still be more of an impact, and it takes 15 seconds to reach 99% of terminal velocity. She was not falling that long.

    - Agreed on not matching Cap's speed
    - Normal humans did not restrain her, they "tried" to restrain her, which she effortlessly shrugged off to the best extent not to hurt any of them
    Thn she willingly allowed them to pull her off the skrull. Neither explanation makes sense.

    I would think she would be able to modulate her blasts.
    I'm only saying what I saw.

    This is the scene you're misremembering. She gets on top of Jude Law's pod, which rockets to earth. There is clearly heat from reentry, and both her and the pod glow red while entering the atmosphere. Jude Law manages to shake her off, and she falls down to earth. You are correct she never hits the ground, as she activates thrust at the last moment. But those two instances (first: hitting the ground at terminal velocity; second: taking atmospheric reentry) together make a solid case for taking atmospheric reentry.
    There is slight signs of heat, and they don't last more than a few seconds. No heat and no impact means it's not a feat of surviving reentry.

    Its... big. Building-sized big. Maybe space-whale sized big. It was a big missile. Also, as noted, she seems to have "Iron Man" style flight powers, in that her thrusters are also her main form of attack/force projection, so for this reason I don't think it matters much to distinguish between flight thrust and how much force she can exert.
    "Building" covers a lot. Her body aura didn't extend that far from her, when it showed her pushing the first missile it had a wide shot, based on it's relative size to her it's maybe twice the size of a city bus. As there are buildings smaller than that, sure.

    This was already noted. While not nuke-level detonations, this was still clearly a massive explosion seen from the ground. Like, MOAB level.
    Their intended deotnations as seen earlier in the movie, sure. But when Carol destroyed them the blasts weren't as big as the explosions seen when the missiles actually reached their target. I don't think those explosions she flew through were the warheads detonating, assuming that's what they even do, because Ronan called them "kinetic." That means there is no warhead, their destructive force comes purely from impact and weight. If they're kinetic weapons as we define them, they;re not even explosive, they're solid metal slugs with engines.

    See, I don't think its useful to make a distinction between her durability and "aura". She's clearly putting an energy field around herself, and she's using it to fly, shoot and smash through stuff with it. Is it her innate, physical durability or is it boosted somehow by her aura? I would say it makes no distinction on a fight, so long as the aura remains activated.
    It absolutely matters because her aura isn't up all the time, if someone faster than her (like Flash, Diana or Superman) were to hit her before it;s up, it's defensive benefits do not exist.

    - Nothing in the scene implies she can charge starship engines. The starship has a lightspeed drive /or a jump drive (not sure on this) on it. She merely flew alongside it.
    I'm talking about when she sent Jude Law home.

    - Flying in space without a mask seemed strange to me too.
    Well she got in a ship, maybe she can just endure vacuum and held her breath.
    "Money and muscle, thatís what I want; to be able to do any damned thing I want and get away with it. Money wonít do that altogether, because if a man is a weakling, all the money in the world wonít enable him to soak an enemy himself; on the other hand, unless he has money he may not be able to get away with it."
    Robert E. Howard

  11. #71
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg View Post
    There would still be more of an impact, and it takes 15 seconds to reach 99% of terminal velocity. She was not falling that long.
    The pod itself was dead for longer than 15 seconds. She and the pod were both falling at terminal velocity.

    Thn she willingly allowed them to pull her off the skrull. Neither explanation makes sense.
    Story reasons? That its actually easy to lift away a 130 lb woman from something than to stop the force of her limbs? Happens all the time in fiction. The fact is, she decides to flex herself and multiple people are just thrown from her.

    There is slight signs of heat, and they don't last more than a few seconds. No heat and no impact means it's not a feat of surviving reentry.
    Then you are admitting that there was heat? Then why are you discounting it?

    Nobody is saying that there was an impact in that scene, the impact happened earlier. But taking both scenes together, she can clearly take both the heat from reentry, and the impact from hitting the ground at terminal velocity.

    "Building" covers a lot. Her body aura didn't extend that far from her, when it showed her pushing the first missile it had a wide shot, based on it's relative size to her it's maybe twice the size of a city bus. As there are buildings smaller than that, sure.
    I don't see what her aura has to do with it.

    Their intended deotnations as seen earlier in the movie, sure. But when Carol destroyed them the blasts weren't as big as the explosions seen when the missiles actually reached their target. I don't think those explosions she flew through were the warheads detonating, assuming that's what they even do, because Ronan called them "kinetic." That means there is no warhead, their destructive force comes purely from impact and weight. If they're kinetic weapons as we define them, they;re not even explosive, they're solid metal slugs with engines.
    Their intended detonations were massive blasts seen from orbit. Like, significant fractions of continents. Much larger than any nuclear bombs ever made.

    The blasts Carol went through were them not detonating as intended. Even then, from the ground it was clearly a massive, MOAB-level blast. Not a nuke, but the closest thing to a nuke in conventional bomb territory.

    "Kinetic" doesn't mean anything, there are many instances in fiction where "kinetic" just means some kind of fancy weapon system (see "Out of the Dark, by David Weber, where "kinetic weapons" mean space based deathrays). The fact is, we see the same warheads being used earlier in the film, and kinetic or not, they still pack massive damage potential.

    It absolutely matters because her aura isn't up all the time, if someone faster than her (like Flash, Diana or Superman) were to hit her before it;s up, it's defensive benefits do not exist.
    This is a valid point. However, you also have to count her baseline durability, as in the case of walking away from falling at terminal velocity, at the lowest point in her powers earlier in the film. Its perfectly reasonable to have a level of durability, and on top of that, be boosted by an activated aura. I highly doubt, for example, that Flash has the force potential to knock her out before she gets going. Whether Diana is fast enough to do this within the standard rumbles distance is still up in the air, and is being discussed in several threads.

    I'm talking about when she sent Jude Law home.
    Ah, sure, that happened.

    Well she got in a ship, maybe she can just endure vacuum and held her breath.
    I'll just chalk that up to artistic license.
    Last edited by Twickster; 03-11-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    I don't THINK anyone was trying to say she fell from space and cratered. Although with the cut away from when she discovers flight, I couldn't quite tell if she actually hit the ground. She did take the heat of reentry without harm. I do agree the Blockbuster crash has some qualifiers that make me question using it as a feat for terminal velocity. Kinda like how Thor does, as contrasted by Hulk, Superman, or Zod's big falls.

  13. #73
    Cruel and Unusual Twickster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twickster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rhyvurg
    Their intended deotnations as seen earlier in the movie, sure. But when Carol destroyed them the blasts weren't as big as the explosions seen when the missiles actually reached their target. I don't think those explosions she flew through were the warheads detonating, assuming that's what they even do, because Ronan called them "kinetic." That means there is no warhead, their destructive force comes purely from impact and weight. If they're kinetic weapons as we define them, they;re not even explosive, they're solid metal slugs with engines.
    "Kinetic" doesn't mean anything, there are many instances in fiction where "kinetic" just means some kind of fancy weapon system (see "Out of the Dark, by David Weber, where "kinetic weapons" mean space based deathrays). The fact is, we see the same warheads being used earlier in the film, and kinetic or not, they still pack massive damage potential.
    Also, as an additional thought, if the claim is that they're really kinetic weapons and there is no warhead to those missiles, then that makes it a better feat for Carol, given the damage feats of the same missiles earlier in the movie. If there really were no warheads, then the only things making them explode with the force of continent-razing bombs is their mass and speed. Which makes Carol stopping and redirecting one a stupidly high-level of strength and force projection.

    Note I'm not really claiming this (I maintain those bombs still had to have some form of warhead), but if that's the position taken by some, then that would be the implication of this feat.
    Last edited by Twickster; 03-11-2019 at 08:30 PM.

  14. #74
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    Maybe I need to re-watch the movie but I remember the missile Carol pushed back being very large, like a building or something.
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    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    I thought there was a lot of inconsistency. For instance, Yonn-Slog wants Carol to fight him without using the energy powers. Yet he can take a blast that knocks him a hundred feet into a solid rock wall. True it pretty much takes him out but he's alive and fairly uninjured. Maybe it was the suit protecting him but, in that case, how are either of them going to beat the other while wearing those suits?

    The Kree in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were tough but not remotely that superhuman.

    As pointed out, the strength and durability levels of the Skrull also keep changing.

    Are there different races of Kree? In Agents, they were all blue. So some look just like white humans?

    Of course, her strength once unrestrained goes from Captain America to Hulk+ and her durability to shrugging off multiple nukes or things worse than nukes.
    Power with Girl is better.

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