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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Well, there's this thing called recentism where people privilege whatever is recent in their experience over anything in the past. It seems pretty insidious, with people thinking that things in the past never happened because that isn't something they experienced recently. And Disney has been very good at retconning their own history. To a lot of people, comic books are not in their experience and they rely on other people to tell them what happened in those comic books. It's easy to make people think that something has always been what it is now.

    Of course, the movie WONDER WOMAN is recent enough that people might believe she's more important. However, I already see some folks putting it out there that WONDER WOMAN was ultimately a flop as a movie. And that narrative could take over, the more that audiences are inundated with this idea that Marvel has always been better than DC and their characters are better exemplars of human values.
    The people pushing this narrative have no power. They're as significant as the idiots claiming the The Last Jedi was a flop or the ones claiming Captain Marvel is a flop. A bunch of bitter malcontents just saying anything to get attention.

  2. #32
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Carol Danvers always seemed to me like the Supergirl of Marvel Comics. For Wonder Woman, a better match would be Storm or Valkyrie.
    In powers I guess. But position as one of the top heroes? Supergirl is usually stuck as Superman's sidekick. Captain Marvel is not really anyone's sidekick. Or at least the sidekick/love interest of a dead guy...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    In powers I guess. But position as one of the top heroes? Supergirl is usually stuck as Superman's sidekick. Captain Marvel is not really anyone's sidekick. Or at least the sidekick/love interest of a dead guy...
    I guess it's because I bought MS. MARVEL No. 1 (January 1977) back in October of 1976, with the story by Gerry Conway. In the same month (maybe at the same time), I got SUPERMAN No. 307 (January 1977), with the story by Gerry Conway and Supergirl in a prominent role.

    At that time, CAPTAIN MARVEL was still very much alive as a title and as a hero (Mar-Vell)--also written by Conway (but my favourite issues were by Jim Starlin). It wasn't just Gerry who handled both characters. Jim Mooney--the greatest Supergirl artist of them all--came on board MS. MARVEL early in the run. Later Carmine Infantino came onto that title for a short stint, when he redesigned the costume--a few years later, Infantino was the main artist on THE DARING NEW ADVENTURES OF SUPERGIRL, where he redesigned her costume, as well. And there were lots of other artists and writers that worked on both characters at one time or another.

    That she was Carol Danvers and Kara-Zor-El's alter ego was Linda Lee Danvers, might all be coincidences, but they were both young blonde spin-off characters from two of the most powerful heroes in their respective universes--as Captain Marvel himself didn't die until MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL Vol. 1 (April 1982), with its pieta cover by Starlin. I guess the odd twist is that Supergirl would die only a few years later in a comic with another pieta cover.

  4. #34
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    The thing Captain Marvel did was condense Wonder Woman's "girl power" theme in way that seemed more modern and relatable. It also showed it without telling, thereby avoiding Wonder Woman's propensity for preachiness.
    Captain Marvel as a movie was far preachier and less subtle about its feminism than Wonder Woman, though.

  5. #35
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Captain Marvel as a movie was far preachier and less subtle about its feminism than Wonder Woman, though.
    I had a similar discussion with my friend when I saw it with him. He said Wonder Woman was more heavy handed, and I disagreed. Aside from the fairly predictable reactions of the men towards women in that time period (and Steve and co. get over it VERY quickly when they see what Diana and the Amazons can do), the movie didn't beat us over the head with the girl power thing beyond the fact that the hero going on her journey was a woman trained by other women. It will be interesting to see how WW84 handles things.

    I think the film that has dialogue and stuff like "you know why they call it a cockpit, right?" and her dad telling her she can't do anything is the one that is significantly less subtle. Not that that is a bad thing, the superhero genre isn't very subtle to begin with, and is somewhat of a case of Some Anvils Need to be Dropped.

  6. #36
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    meme time


  7. #37
    Incredible Member LadyP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    You appeal to an audience or you don't. If Marvel can get people on board with Captain Marvel , it means they are doing something right. Marvel built their verse, have the confidence of their audience and are showing they not afraid of powerful females who do not need men to define who or what they are or become. Same as the way they treat their men. DC should learn a thing or two about that. Even in comics Diana is undermined and weakened...eg Rebirth Wonder Woman imo is a now mess and the weakest in powerset I ever read of the character and it is jarring coming off three decades of a more powerful and independent Diana starting from Perez to Azzarello. It peeves me Diana is not flying in the movie verse. The argument they use well she might be construed as a female Superman yet they have zero probs other males flying in their own verse. And Marvel certainly isn't bothered Carol is flying when they have other males who fly. Why should we blame Marvel for DC's lack of vision for its premiere heroine?
    The bolded part. It's really that simple.
    However, when it comes to its characters, DC seems to be tone deaf at times. Diana went from being a powerhouse heroine to whatever she is now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldofrivia View Post
    Supergirl or Batgirl is much bigger threat to WW than Captain Marvel.
    In fact Captain Marvel may force DC to treat WW better.
    The bolded. I hope with every fiber of my being that this will be the case.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    The crossover between DC and Marvel movie fans is rather large - there's no point in 'stealing' from anyone, especially movies that are coming out a year apart.

    If anything, Marvel is using the success of Wonder Woman to help launch its first solo female film. Had WW failed at the box office, I wonder if there would have been a Captain Marvel solo film.

    I like DC films and characters, I like Marvel films and characters - I never understood the need to choose when they aren't mutually exclusive.
    To the bolded parts. Precisely.
    People are going to like what appeals to them. Period.


    I, for instance, may be more likely to read a DC comic than I would a Marvel one, yet will not hesitate to watch both a DC movie and a Marvel movie.

    I don't understand why anyone would see the Captain Marvel movie as being a sign of Marvel trying to steal Wonder Woman fans. If anything, we need more quality solo female superhero movies. If anything, it puts pressure on the separate companies to ensure that they are doing right by these characters now that they are reaching a wider/broader audience than the niche comic book base.
    While there may be truth to the success of Wonder Woman helping to launch Marvel's first female solo movie, I can only hope that from DC's end it will lead to more and better Wonder Woman movies and appearances moving forward. Because, while the 1st Wonder Woman movie was well received it was certainly not without fault.

    Both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are characters with their own history and source material that is unique to them. If something is bad, it's bad. If something is good, it's good. And if it's interesting and appeals, people will watch regardless of whether it is DC or Marvel.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    In powers I guess. But position as one of the top heroes? Supergirl is usually stuck as Superman's sidekick. Captain Marvel is not really anyone's sidekick. Or at least the sidekick/love interest of a dead guy...
    I guess jim kelly means that carol danvers origin is more similar to supergirl. Because in terms of power Wonder Woman outclasses her in the comics by far. Diana was a powerhouse doing big powrhouse stuff since her debut. carol danvers has been a mid tier during her existence.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Theo View Post
    Since they don't have an iconic female character like WW (well, at least as old as WW), maybe with the Phoenix being the most popular from X-men, so their best bet is to recreate one.

    Do you think DC should create a new superhero or gloss up an existing one that has the potential to rival Capt. Marvel for the much younger generation, like Supergirl?

    I often Wonder Woman will be still as popular once its main demographics are no longer in this planet, and if it will follow the likes of Zorro and other superheroes or famous characters that many people now don't even remember.

    You may find this interesting:

    http://whatculture.com/film/captain-...better?page=13

    Gal-Gadot-Brie-Larson.jpg


    Not at all. Lots of love all around.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyP View Post
    The bolded part. It's really that simple.
    However, when it comes to its characters, DC seems to be tone deaf at times. Diana went from being a powerhouse heroine to whatever she is now.




    The bolded. I hope with every fiber of my being that this will be the case.





    To the bolded parts. Precisely.
    People are going to like what appeals to them. Period.


    I, for instance, may be more likely to read a DC comic than I would a Marvel one, yet will not hesitate to watch both a DC movie and a Marvel movie.

    I don't understand why anyone would see the Captain Marvel movie as being a sign of Marvel trying to steal Wonder Woman fans. If anything, we need more quality solo female superhero movies. If anything, it puts pressure on the separate companies to ensure that they are doing right by these characters now that they are reaching a wider/broader audience than the niche comic book base.
    While there may be truth to the success of Wonder Woman helping to launch Marvel's first female solo movie, I can only hope that from DC's end it will lead to more and better Wonder Woman movies and appearances moving forward. Because, while the 1st Wonder Woman movie was well received it was certainly not without fault.

    Both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are characters with their own history and source material that is unique to them. If something is bad, it's bad. If something is good, it's good. And if it's interesting and appeals, people will watch regardless of whether it is DC or Marvel.
    I'm glad to see i'm not the only one around here who think current comic Diana is not being treated like a powerhouse.

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    I'm glad to see i'm not the only one around here who think current comic Diana is not being treated like a powerhouse.
    That's because of the movie. Most of the current WW writers are inspired by the movie rather than her old source material.
    Blame lies squarely on Patty.
    Even Aquaman has more powerful feats in his movie, lifting Sub, fighting monsters than WW

  12. #42
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldofrivia View Post
    That's because of the movie. Most of the current WW writers are inspired by the movie rather than her old source material.
    Blame lies squarely on Patty.
    Even Aquaman has more powerful feats in his movie, lifting Sub, fighting monsters than WW
    Actually, we don't know what Patty was told by the higher-ups.

    Also, the WW movie is about her discovering her powers and learning to fight. Much as people might not like the end of the film, she was easily holding up multi-ton tanks (I think that tank weighed in at over 90 tons), ignored fire, and was at ground zero for an explosion that knocked her (by my guess) at least a hundred yards away? Maybe more? And her only problem was that momentarily knocked the wind out of her, and her hearing was a bit off (for dramatic purposes ) - otherwise, not a scratch on her. She went through the entire film, as I recall, without being injured in any way despite walking through a warzone.

    I think the fault lies in Justice League, which completely ignored the fact that she has the power to take down a god single handedly. That display of godly powers at the end (shielding herself from harm, throwing god-slaying lightning, and the fact that she was sorta nicknamed 'the godkiller') was completely ignored during the fight with Steppenwolf.

    I'll wait to see how/if her powers have progressed in WW84 before I blame anyone.

  13. #43
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I had a similar discussion with my friend when I saw it with him. He said Wonder Woman was more heavy handed, and I disagreed. Aside from the fairly predictable reactions of the men towards women in that time period (and Steve and co. get over it VERY quickly when they see what Diana and the Amazons can do), the movie didn't beat us over the head with the girl power thing beyond the fact that the hero going on her journey was a woman trained by other women. It will be interesting to see how WW84 handles things.

    I think the film that has dialogue and stuff like "you know why they call it a cockpit, right?" and her dad telling her she can't do anything is the one that is significantly less subtle. Not that that is a bad thing, the superhero genre isn't very subtle to begin with, and is somewhat of a case of Some Anvils Need to be Dropped.
    Captain Marvel did have scenes that were a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes. Including those you mentioned, there was also the "Give me a smile, baby" or whatever line that the biker said to her (the worst culprit of the movie for me), as well as her fighting some badguys to No Doubt's "Just A Girl." Obviously some fans will love this aspect of the movie, but it was too on-the-nose whereas I felt Wonder Woman's treatment by the generals in the treaty meeting was handled very well.

  14. #44
    Incredible Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    Captain Marvel did have scenes that were a bit too heavy-handed for my tastes. Including those you mentioned, there was also the "Give me a smile, baby" or whatever line that the biker said to her (the worst culprit of the movie for me), as well as her fighting some badguys to No Doubt's "Just A Girl." Obviously some fans will love this aspect of the movie, but it was too on-the-nose whereas I felt Wonder Woman's treatment by the generals in the treaty meeting was handled very well.
    The irony is people were complaining she was not smiling and too serious in her first Trailer.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Also, the WW movie is about her discovering her powers and learning to fight. Much as people might not like the end of the film, she was easily holding up multi-ton tanks (I think that tank weighed in at over 90 tons), ignored fire, and was at ground zero for an explosion that knocked her (by my guess) at least a hundred yards away? Maybe more? And her only problem was that momentarily knocked the wind out of her, and her hearing was a bit off (for dramatic purposes ) - otherwise, not a scratch on her. She went through the entire film, as I recall, without being injured in any way despite walking through a warzone.

    I think the fault lies in Justice League, which completely ignored the fact that she has the power to take down a god single handedly. That display of godly powers at the end (shielding herself from harm, throwing god-slaying lightning, and the fact that she was sorta nicknamed 'the godkiller') was completely ignored during the fight with Steppenwolf.
    Just to be be really accurate (or pedantic), that tank weighed about 30 tons when ready for battle (likely a little less without crew and ammo at the base), she did get a slight wound at the Battle of the Beach, and the lightning that she defeated Ares with was called down by Ares himself: Diana caught its power and threw it back at Ares.

    But I think the most important thing about Wonder Woman in the movie wasn't what she did, but that it managed to create an empathic, caring, strong superheroine. Who was strong not only in the sense of being physically strong, but strong in morals and in character as well. And perhaps most importantly, made the people around her stronger and better persons.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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