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  1. #46
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I would also notice that Batman weathers change better than Superman does. DC ditched his trunks in the mid-nineties and almost no one noticed. He loses his yellow oval and not only do most fans not complain, they prefer it. Batman fans have come to accept change whereas Superman fans fight it. This might actually make Batman easier to work with than Superman in some ways. Batman fans are perceived as being more open to new ideas. Not that Superman fans don't have good reason to be suspicious of too much change. How many origins has he had? Writers also aren't afraid to try out new villains and taking stories in different directions than Superman writers are. Superman just seems to fight the alien of the month over and over again.
    You’re right about the different attitudes to change. The obsession with the trunks is a good example. However I don’t quite agree with the point about the villains at least in the comics. I’m outside media all we get is Lex and Zod and the perception that Supes doesn’t have any other villains has hurt him for sure. It’s why I’m angry that they’re apparently using Brainiac for Kara. However in the comics writers actually are fairly good about creating new villains. Busiek created new Rogues. Morrison created a bunch of new Rogues in his New 52 run such as Nimrod, Vyn, Drekkon, and the Phantom King. Lobdell created new Rogues that were mostly crap. Pak created some new Rogues that were decent like Harrow and her Ghost Soldiers. Jurgens created a ton of new Rogues, unfortunately the ones I liked the most like Conduit and Blanque don’t get used. Kelly created Manchester Black and the Elite. Rucka created some new Rogues. Bendis has made Red Cloud (good), the Invisible Mafia (good), and Rogal (bad) so far.

    The problem isn’t creation. The problem is that mostly no one actually uses other peoples Rogues. Everyone abandons the previous writer’s toys to make their own, so all we get is a bunch of OCs and Lex. Sometimes we get someone like Johns or Tomasi who do make use of previous Rogues and do a good job but that’s rare. I am absolutely ******* desperate for someone to do something with Metallo or Parasite. How long have they been part of Superman’s Rogues Gallery and yet the only worthwhile story that has featured the two I can think of in recent years was Johns Secret Origin and I didn’t think their portrayal there was that great.

  2. #47
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    WB/DC favors Batman because there's a truckload of Bat-merchandise they can move: Batmobiles, utility belts, assorted gadgets...all in toy form.

    Superman is popular, but the only Super-merchandise that's really marketable is his logo on clothing. The character generally isn't known for driving around in cars, using utility belts, etc.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Or to use the term Warner Bros execs used with Joel Shumacher when he was gearing up to make Batman and Robin. "Is it toy-etic enough" meaning can you make toys out of it. Superman is not as toy-etic as Batman. That's def a big part of it.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manofsteel1979 View Post
    Or to use the term Warner Bros execs used with Joel Shumacher when he was gearing up to make Batman and Robin. "Is it toy-etic enough" meaning can you make toys out of it. Superman is not as toy-etic as Batman. That's def a big part of it.
    Yep people underestimate just how much merchandise sales can elevate the status of an IP. However i believe that for Batman it's not just that advantage but a change in trends, consistently better stories, better adaptation in multiple media, more iconic rogues gallery and supporting characters.

    It's a lot of things that came together to give Batman his huge lead in profitability resulting in him becoming DC's leading star
    Last edited by dietrich; 03-12-2019 at 06:46 AM.

  4. #49
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    I always had a hard time understanding why, if they wanted to sell toys to kids, the movies from Nolan and Snyder went so dark and adult. I would have thought the Warner brass would want the movies to be more family friendly and filled with toy brands.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    WB/DC favors Batman because there's a truckload of Bat-merchandise they can move: Batmobiles, utility belts, assorted gadgets...all in toy form.

    Superman is popular, but the only Super-merchandise that's really marketable is his logo on clothing. The character generally isn't known for driving around in cars, using utility belts, etc.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Well, there was this...
    Image.jpg
    ...not very successful attempt.

    You are correct about the merchandising. IMO, Disney and WB both look on the comics as little more than advertising for stuff where the real money lies.

  6. #51
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    ...I am absolutely ******* desperate for someone to do something with Metallo or Parasite...
    Agreed. Supes has a lot of enemies, some are jealous, some vengeful, and some just need him out of the way. But Metallo and Parasite are the only two both able and conceptually hardwired to regard him as prey.

  7. #52
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Aside from three deliberate cases (Supercar, Hunter Prey, and STAS spacesuit) I guess they didn't offer much up for action toys back when they were popular. I wish Toy Biz had the license. They could have done about four dozen toys from 1990-1996 without the line even catering to it.

    For rogues, Johns kinda sorta tried a rogues heavy approach. But they only seemed to revolve in the sense that they all came out to fight Zod. I can see if he may have had an issue coming up with a reason that Superman's villains would be out running their gimmick every other Saturday.
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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    WB/DC favors Batman because there's a truckload of Bat-merchandise they can move: Batmobiles, utility belts, assorted gadgets...all in toy form.

    Superman is popular, but the only Super-merchandise that's really marketable is his logo on clothing. The character generally isn't known for driving around in cars, using utility belts, etc.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Well, we can't all have a Flash cycle.

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  9. #54
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    @ Vordan, Zack Snyder did deconstruct Batman (and Superman) in BvS, and many didn't like it. Personally, I did like Batman's story in that movie. It was Superman's overall portrayal I had big issues with.


    I think there are more ways to sell Superman toys through his villains. Imagine all the different toys they could make for Brainiac, his ship, his robots. Also an army of Bizarros. There are ways but like someone just said, the films need to be more family friendly for kids to get into it more and ask their parents for the toys, costumes, etc. Being family friendly doesn't mean it's bad or childish.

    In Justice League cartoon, I never felt like Batman was the lead character. Even in the Snyder films, Batman was obsessed with Superman because he was afraid of him and couldn't control him. Sometimes I think some Superman fans exaggerate. The only recent time when I felt Superman was truly humiliated in favor of someone else was in the CW Supergirl show. He's a total joke there, it's embarrassing.

    Last edited by stargazer01; 03-12-2019 at 07:45 AM.

  10. #55
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    Donner unfortunately made the Fortress of Solitude look bland. Sure all the crystals were cool, but once you get past that, the Fortress looks pretty empty and sterile. There's so much that can be done with it and it could be an endless supply of toy ideas.
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  11. #56
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Donner unfortunately made the Fortress of Solitude look bland. Sure all the crystals were cool, but once you get past that, the Fortress looks pretty empty and sterile. There's so much that can be done with it and it could be an endless supply of toy ideas.
    The Fortress of Solitude can be re-introduced and expanded. It doesn't have to be exactly like Donner's, but that FOS is iconic, so I think it'd be best to keep some of the design and add more things from other FOS like the animated series and movies. Make it more functional while keeping the eerie and alien feeling.

    Even the Donner FOS seemed to have more functions that it seemed. They could add more things that could be fun for kids and kids at heart..

    fortress-of-solitude-z.jpg

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    In Justice League cartoon, I never felt like Batman was the lead character. Even in the Snyder films, Batman was obsessed with Superman because he was afraid of him and couldn't control him. Sometimes I think some Superman fans exaggerate.
    Yes, fans exaggerate all the time, especially when we're angry.

    But as for the JL cartoon, did you think there was a main character? I think a lot of screen time was given to guys like GL and Hawkgirl, but when you look at stuff like the episode "Epilogue," you can see the need to tie everything back to Batman because they were preparing to give the DCAU a proper sendoff by going back to square one.

    I think the more irritating thing about Batman's utilization in the show was that there was too much emphasis on making sure he looked cool. To be fair, he had some embarrassing moments, and other characters generally had their time to shine, but usually I mean stuff like how it could take two episodes for the league to beat the Injustice Gang, but Batman could beat five of them in less than 30 seconds. Or all the extra dialogue to mention how only he could dodge the Omega beams (which isn't even factually true according to the show! However, one could make an argument that Darkseid's fibbing is actually in line with his character). Or something really stupid how Flash and Superman can't move at all against Ace's spooky powers but Batman can disarm Joker. Or that really stupid line in the opening arc about how the team will certainly need him (bad line, it just made it sound like Batman is some insecure braggart). It's in the little details.

    In short, you could feel the the effect of the writers trying to prop him up in unnecessary ways.

    Regarding Donner's FoS, I imagine there were some budget constraints that prevented the FoS from being more ornate. I'm pretty sure they kept running low on funding just to make the movie as it was.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Yes, fans exaggerate all the time, especially when we're angry.

    But as for the JL cartoon, did you think there was a main character? I think a lot of screen time was given to guys like GL and Hawkgirl, but when you look at stuff like the episode "Epilogue," you can see the need to tie everything back to Batman because they were preparing to give the DCAU a proper sendoff by going back to square one.

    I think the more irritating thing about Batman's utilization in the show was that there was too much emphasis on making sure he looked cool. To be fair, he had some embarrassing moments, and other characters generally had their time to shine, but usually I mean stuff like how it could take two episodes for the league to beat the Injustice Gang, but Batman could beat five of them in less than 30 seconds. Or all the extra dialogue to mention how only he could dodge the Omega beams (which isn't even factually true according to the show! However, one could make an argument that Darkseid's fibbing is actually in line with his character). Or something really stupid how Flash and Superman can't move at all against Ace's spooky powers but Batman can disarm Joker. Or that really stupid line in the opening arc about how the team will certainly need him (bad line, it just made it sound like Batman is some insecure braggart). It's in the little details.

    In short, you could feel the the effect of the writers trying to prop him up in unnecessary ways.

    Regarding Donner's FoS, I imagine there were some budget constraints that prevented the FoS from being more ornate. I'm pretty sure they kept running low on funding just to make the movie as it was.
    Oh for sure, especially when he was able to dodge Darkseid omega beams. I just think they had to make him somewhat relevant among so many god-like and powerful superheroes. And because he's Batman. It's not believable, yeah. Even in the JL movie and in BvS, he was just hiding during the whole Doomsday battle. Even Diana had to save his bvtt lol. It's why I wasn't mad he went to save Martha, because the guy had to do something cool! Some say Superman is boring because he can do anything and is too powerful, but apparently Batman can also do anything and he's still cool? lol. anyone thinks he's actually in danger of dying in his stories? Of course not. Same with Superman and the others.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Answering the OP question, Superman is still a lead character of sorts, but it feels hollow, and not really supported by the narrative. This is especially true outside the comics; whereas the comics will occasionally put Superman at the forefront, other media really don't give him the typical main protagonist position. Be it 43 lines of dialogue in a movie that guys have retroactively called the sequel to MoS, or all the EVIL SUPERMAN! stories we see, or various TV shows running or in the works that's peripherally about Superman but doesn't feature Superman. DC and WB understand "Superman" has some value, but narratively they don't really feel confident to act on the character.

  15. #60
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Superman is very much the lead character in DC, It is still pushed in books line wide. Batman without a doubt is the more popular character outside and get a lot of respect in universe as well but not in the same manner Superman is the aspirational character in the universe. Superman remains popular enough in the real world to where he doesn't lose his lead status. Superman though is in trouble if DC finds its "Black Panther" not talking about the minority aspect of the character but talking about a character who can be in the same niche as him and very popular at the same time. Superman doesn't have a Captain America situation which is a character that fill in his niche and be popular while he is awkwardly on the team. Superman was at center of Justice League movie, He is up front in the cartoons movies as important, He is a big deal when he shows up in Supergirl( even though they always have go no Supergirl you are important). Batman is the money maker but DC still imo still revolves around Superman.

    Batman being more popular makes him a priority which at times gives him more of a spotlight due to sheer quantity but general pattern is superman is "The Guy" and until another hero who can force DC restructure Superman is going to be lead because so much for DC is interwoven into him.

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