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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Is there a pattern here?

    It seems like repeatedlyy female villains in DC are shown as not that bad. Giganta here being one example, but also Cale is hugged out of her evil plan. Harley and Poison Ivy are borderline good guys, or at least shown sympathetically compared to guys like Scarecrow, Penguin and Riddler. Catwoman is a classic example, Cheetah is not far behind, and for Mayfly turns good in a way fans would rail against if it were Zoom or,as above, Metallic.

    It's almost like there's a unspoken understanding at DC that only male characters can be really bad, presumably because of a chronic deficiency in sugar and spice...
    It’s definitely a trend I’ve noticed as well to make female villains into anti-heroes. I’m not a fan of that trend at all, I think it’s bull.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It seems like repeatedlyy female villains in DC are shown as not that bad. Giganta here being one example, but also Cale is hugged out of her evil plan. Harley and Poison Ivy are borderline good guys, or at least shown sympathetically compared to guys like Scarecrow, Penguin and Riddler. Catwoman is a classic example, Cheetah is not far behind, and for Mayfly turns good in a way fans would rail against if it were Zoom or,as above, Metallic.
    Yes, it's a pattern, and you can probably see it over in lots of other fiction as well, including Marvel.

    I think there is not one single cause for that pattern, but rather lots of interlocking ones, many of them involving details. To take the case of Veronica Cale, in Rucka's first run she struck me very much as a figure like Margaret Thatcher or Theresa May—very much the authoritarian and reactionary. But Rucka's Rebirth run made her much more into a victim for the intrigues of Phobos and Deimos; a person in torrendous pain who had forgotten how to trust and instead struck out against anyone she couldn't control.

    If we look at the real world, women are less likely to be involved in violent crime. One can discuss why, but it is certainly reflected in superhero comics, and I see no reason why it shouldn't.

    Another factor is that back during the Golden and Silver ages, there was a strong trend in several countries—including the USA—that good girls were not allowed to be sexy or sexually challenging. Thus the popularity of the femme fatale: it was the only way to include sexy women in comics (or movies or other fiction). But once "good" girls were allowed to be sexy, a lot of the reason for having "bad" girls disappeared. And since several of the femme fatales were only bad because they had to be, writers had to set out looking for a reason why they were as they were: it had not been integral to their character since their inception.

    ETA: The notion of the rehabitable female villain has been a part of the Wonder Woman framework since the beginning. What should be changed is possibly not the notion of the rehabitable female villains, but the one of the unrehabitable male villain.
    Last edited by kjn; 03-22-2019 at 04:06 AM.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yes, it's a pattern, and you can probably see it over in lots of other fiction as well, including Marvel.

    I think there is not one single cause for that pattern, but rather lots of interlocking ones, many of them involving details. To take the case of Veronica Cale, in Rucka's first run she struck me very much as a figure like Margaret Thatcher or Theresa May—very much the authoritarian and reactionary. But Rucka's Rebirth run made her much more into a victim for the intrigues of Phobos and Deimos; a person in torrendous pain who had forgotten how to trust and instead struck out against anyone she couldn't control.

    If we look at the real world, women are less likely to be involved in violent crime. One can discuss why, but it is certainly reflected in superhero comics, and I see no reason why it shouldn't.

    Another factor is that back during the Golden and Silver ages, there was a strong trend in several countries—including the USA—that good girls were not allowed to be sexy or sexually challenging. Thus the popularity of the femme fatale: it was the only way to include sexy women in comics (or movies or other fiction). But once "good" girls were allowed to be sexy, a lot of the reason for having "bad" girls disappeared. And since several of the femme fatales were only bad because they had to be, writers had to set out looking for a reason why they were as they were: it had not been integral to their character since their inception.

    ETA: The notion of the rehabitable female villain has been a part of the Wonder Woman framework since the beginning. What should be changed is possibly not the notion of the rehabitable female villains, but the one of the unrehabitable male villain.
    No.

    I disagree with simply on the basis that WW fans FREQUENTLY complain about her lack of a strong rogues gallery. How much harder is that going to be with all her (predominantly) female villains turning into white hats.

    You want equality, show me some female villains who are genuinely, unrenpentently evil! Like Circe in the Perez and Jimrnez runs. Like Madame Hydra or Dormammu’s sister, Umar.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yes, it's a pattern, and you can probably see it over in lots of other fiction as well, including Marvel.

    I think there is not one single cause for that pattern, but rather lots of interlocking ones, many of them involving details. To take the case of Veronica Cale, in Rucka's first run she struck me very much as a figure like Margaret Thatcher or Theresa May—very much the authoritarian and reactionary. But Rucka's Rebirth run made her much more into a victim for the intrigues of Phobos and Deimos; a person in torrendous pain who had forgotten how to trust and instead struck out against anyone she couldn't control.

    If we look at the real world, women are less likely to be involved in violent crime. One can discuss why, but it is certainly reflected in superhero comics, and I see no reason why it shouldn't.

    Another factor is that back during the Golden and Silver ages, there was a strong trend in several countries—including the USA—that good girls were not allowed to be sexy or sexually challenging. Thus the popularity of the femme fatale: it was the only way to include sexy women in comics (or movies or other fiction). But once "good" girls were allowed to be sexy, a lot of the reason for having "bad" girls disappeared. And since several of the femme fatales were only bad because they had to be, writers had to set out looking for a reason why they were as they were: it had not been integral to their character since their inception.

    ETA: The notion of the rehabitable female villain has been a part of the Wonder Woman framework since the beginning. What should be changed is possibly not the notion of the rehabitable female villains, but the one of the unrehabitable male villain.
    Honestly, there is likely a sexist factor. Our culture see that women tend to be more vulnerable than men, so people associate this with kindness.

    That is why many find it easier to redeem female characters (and with much poorer reasons) than male characters.

    It is for that reason that even when the male villains got more depth over time, many of them remained mainly bad and unrepent.



    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No.

    I disagree with simply on the basis that WW fans FREQUENTLY complain about her lack of a strong rogues gallery. How much harder is that going to be with all her (predominantly) female villains turning into white hats.

    You want equality, show me some female villains who are genuinely, unrenpentently evil! Like Circe in the Perez and Jimrnez runs. Like Madame Hydra or Dormammu’s sister, Umar.
    If we speak about equally, demanding more redeemable male villains is still a sign of equally (since there are so much redeemable female villains).

    I know equally isn't the main reason why you want more unrepentently female villains. I just want to mention that equally doesn't work only in one way.
    Last edited by Konja7; 03-22-2019 at 06:15 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Is there a pattern here?

    It seems like repeatedlyy female villains in DC are shown as not that bad. Giganta here being one example, but also Cale is hugged out of her evil plan. Harley and Poison Ivy are borderline good guys, or at least shown sympathetically compared to guys like Scarecrow, Penguin and Riddler. Catwoman is a classic example, Cheetah is not far behind, and for Mayfly turns good in a way fans would rail against if it were Zoom or,as above, Metallic.

    It's almost like there's a unspoken understanding at DC that only male characters can be really bad, presumably because of a chronic deficiency in sugar and spice...
    DC sugarcoats their male villains just as much. Bane and Catman in Simone's Secret Six, Black Adam and Sinestro under Geoff Johns, Slade Wilson under Wolfman just for a few examples. This is not unique to female characters.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    No.

    I disagree with simply on the basis that WW fans FREQUENTLY complain about her lack of a strong rogues gallery. How much harder is that going to be with all her (predominantly) female villains turning into white hats.

    You want equality, show me some female villains who are genuinely, unrenpentently evil! Like Circe in the Perez and Jimrnez runs. Like Madame Hydra or Dormammu’s sister, Umar.
    But they're not being made into white hats. Some of them have been given more sympathetic backstories and characterizations but that's been a common trend since Claremont's Magneto.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Honestly, there is likely a sexist factor. Our culture see that women tend to be more vulnerable than men, so people associate this with kindness.

    That is why many find it easier to redeem female characters (and with much poorer reasons) than male characters.

    It is for that reason that even when the male villains got more depth over time, many of them remained mainly bad and unrepent.

    If we speak about equally, demanding more redeemable male villains is still a sign of equally (since there are so much redeemable female villains).

    I know equally isn't the main reason why you want more unrepentently female villains. I just want to mention that equally doesn't work only in one way.
    There are male villains who do a face turn. Slade Wilson and Venom are both both anti-heroes now, or have been. So has Magneto, Captain Cold, Catman.

    But these characters do not represent the same large percentage as with the female villains who go from a heel to a face, to use the pro-wrestling jargon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    DC sugarcoats their male villains just as much. Bane and Catman in Simone's Secret Six, Black Adam and Sinestro under Geoff Johns, Slade Wilson under Wolfman just for a few examples. This is not unique to female characters.
    Unique - no.

    More prevalent - definitely.

    It even happens in Wonder Woman. In the Azarello run, by the end of the story all the women are fighting on Diana’s side. The only two unredeemed characters - Apollo and the Firstborn - are guys.
    Last edited by brettc1; 03-22-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  8. #53
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    This was pretty good, 5/5 from me, and I've been a harsh critic of this run so far. Its obviously not a 5/5 masterpiece, but a 5/5 I liked it. So far, the only two good issues of Wilson's run have involved those animal people.

    Some highlights:
    > I laughed when WW got punched by a Titan
    > Giganta was pretty good
    > it feels like an actual adventure story!

    My only concern here is that Giganta isn't actually introduced...You have to know who she is from general knowledge of the DCU. Its not really a concern for us, but for new readers.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    It even happens in Wonder Woman. In the Azarello run, by the end of the story all the women are fighting on Diana’s side. The only two unredeemed characters - Apollo and the Firstborn - are guys.
    Cassandra doesn't really get redeemed at the end of the run.

    I'm not really sure what the problem is though. Transforming villains into heroes has always been a Wonder Woman trope and Giganta has been depicted as a quasi-ally of WW since Gail Simone. I would also add, the most popular examples of this trope are males, Vageta from DBZ, Spike from Angel, and Darth Vader from Star Wars.

    A lot of people also really like this trope. I've read nearly every comic Poison Ivy stars in and the interpretations I liked the most is when she is depicted as being out right villainous. Yet when I commented in a Poison Ivy thread that I liked a comic where she threw people into a vat of acid they accused me of being a troll!
    Last edited by Pinsir; 03-22-2019 at 08:40 PM.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Why did Diana not have any money? I mean we know she has toys and other items. Why wouldn't she get royalties from those?
    Probably goes to charity.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Cassandra doesn't really get redeemed at the end of the run.

    I'm not really sure what the problem is though. Transforming villains into heroes has always been a Wonder Woman trope and Giganta has been depicted as a quasi-ally of WW since Gail Simone. I would also add, the most popular examples of this trope are males, Vageta from DBZ, Spike from Angel, and Darth Vader from Star Wars.

    A lot of people also really like this trope. I've read nearly every comic Poison Ivy stars in and the interpretations I liked the most is when she is depicted as being out right villainous. Yet when I commented in a Poison Ivy thread that I liked a comic where she threw people into a vat of acid they accused me of being a troll!
    Which maybe tells you something. Would anyone really care if Riddler or Mad Hatter did that?

    Vader died straight after, but then he went to hell for for being a child murdering monster. I don't care what stupidity Lucas thinks on the subject.
    Last edited by brettc1; 03-22-2019 at 09:04 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    DC sugarcoats their male villains just as much. Bane and Catman in Simone's Secret Six, Black Adam and Sinestro under Geoff Johns, Slade Wilson under Wolfman just for a few examples. This is not unique to female characters.
    DC's problem is that they always try to push the wrong villains(male and female)as anti-heroes or anti-villains and refuse to redeem the characters who should be antiheroes.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Cassandra doesn't really get redeemed at the end of the run.

    I'm not really sure what the problem is though. Transforming villains into heroes has always been a Wonder Woman trope and Giganta has been depicted as a quasi-ally of WW since Gail Simone. I would also add, the most popular examples of this trope are males, Vageta from DBZ, Spike from Angel, and Darth Vader from Star Wars.

    A lot of people also really like this trope. I've read nearly every comic Poison Ivy stars in and the interpretations I liked the most is when she is depicted as being out right villainous. Yet when I commented in a Poison Ivy thread that I liked a comic where she threw people into a vat of acid they accused me of being a troll!
    No offense intended but a lot of what you say does come across as very inflammatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Which maybe tells you something. Would anyone really care if Riddler or Mad Hatter did that?
    Well I recall a lot of people being disappointed when he became a villain again so probably yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Vader died straight after, but then he went to hell for for being a child murdering monster. I don't care what stupidity Lucas thinks on the subject.
    I really don't get why the reveal that children were among Vader's victims makes his redemption too difficult to believe.

    I mean, what did you think the Emperor's right hand man was doing all this time?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-23-2019 at 12:42 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I really don't get why the reveal that children were among Vader's victims makes his redemption too difficult to believe.

    I mean, what did you think the Emperor's right hand man was doing all this time?
    Vader works for an Empire that destroy a planet in the first film. He had no problem witnessing when that happened.

    Yeah. Vader killing children isn't surprising.
    Last edited by Konja7; 03-23-2019 at 05:31 AM.

  15. #60
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    <ahem>

    Vader debates should go elsewhere, please
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