View Poll Results: What did you think of the issue?

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • ★★★★★

    4 13.79%
  • ★★★★

    7 24.14%
  • ★★★

    9 31.03%
  • ★★

    6 20.69%
  • 3 10.34%
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 78
  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No offense intended but a lot of what you say does come across as very inflammatory.
    No, it really doesn’t. Ivy is a villain and one would expect her to act villainously.

    Inflammatory here means posting an opinion that others may disagree with, but is nevertheless valid.
    Last edited by brettc1; 03-23-2019 at 01:51 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Which maybe tells you something. Would anyone really care if Riddler or Mad Hatter did that?
    Best Riddler story arc ever was when he tried to prove he was a better detective than Batman. Yes, that means he was HELPING the police.

    The epitome of this was a one-off Superman story called "The Choice". Superman fights and beats 3 male supervillains during the story and Scorch. Each of the four villains was offered a seat in the Justice League for the low low price of becoming a superhero. Who accepted? If you guess Scorch..... WRONG! I mean Scorch did something in a different story. This story it was Major Disaster. Yes, the guy whose name explains what his powers create.....

    Also Scorch never actually joined the JL. She sometimes helped them, but in the Burning Martian case that went.... badly, for Scorch and only Scorch. So yeah Scorch got to do a heroic sacrifice even though she wasn't ever a hero. But that's not really the same thing. Yeah the story with Scorch and the Burning Martian... that wasn't really a face turn story, that was more of a "corrupted by evil" story. J'onn wanted to overcome his fear of fire because he didn't know why it was there. Which eventually awakened the Burning Martian. Who was beaten more by Plastic Man and (I forget whether it was Aquaman or Major Disaster that brought the tidal wave) than Superman. Scorch started out as a chaotic neutral instead of ever being evil. She only acts heroic when there's an actual villain in her way.

    Wait... I said Plastic Man. Plastic Man is a reformed villain... mostly. Look up the reason why Barda felt like choking him... ooh boy....

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Cassandra doesn't really get redeemed at the end of the run.

    I'm not really sure what the problem is though. Transforming villains into heroes has always been a Wonder Woman trope and Giganta has been depicted as a quasi-ally of WW since Gail Simone. I would also add, the most popular examples of this trope are males, Vageta from DBZ, Spike from Angel, and Darth Vader from Star Wars.

    A lot of people also really like this trope. I've read nearly every comic Poison Ivy stars in and the interpretations I liked the most is when she is depicted as being out right villainous. Yet when I commented in a Poison Ivy thread that I liked a comic where she threw people into a vat of acid they accused me of being a troll!
    Vegeta.

    Anyways the trope is nice because it makes the characters feel like people who make decisions. What motivates the Riddler to do things? Or Scorch, or Deathstroke, Lady Shiva(I loved her Jade Canary phase), or Poison Ivy? To me, the best Poison Ivy stories are those where she has reasons for massacring people, and doesn't just kill people because she's a villain.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Vegeta.

    Anyways the trope is nice because it makes the characters feel like people who make decisions. What motivates the Riddler to do things? Or Scorch, or Deathstroke, Lady Shiva(I loved her Jade Canary phase), or Poison Ivy? To me, the best Poison Ivy stories are those where she has reasons for massacring people, and doesn't just kill people because she's a villain.
    Every villain has reasons for doing what they do, and pretty much every single one of the villains feels like what they do is justified. But the debate is whether, by and large, female villains are shown in a more sympathetic light than their male counterparts.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #65
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    302

    Default

    I see the case for the Male and Female Villain to anti-hero ratio... Like when it comes to characters like the Riddler and Clayface vs. Poison Ivy and Harley, the fact that there are so many prominent male villains who are indeed NOT going to be redeemed, the former two see like drops in the ocean compared to the latter two when the only prominent bad gals besides those two in the Bat rogues gallery are Catwoman and Talia, who were less villainous than Harley and Ivy ever were. Hilarious in retrospect as Ivy's original purpose was to be a prominent female criminal as Catwoman was softened at the time. So it feels like more female villains are being softened up in comparison to their male counterparts as the pool is much smaller. I mean look at Ivy and Talia in comparison to Ra's? The endgame and goals are similar, but you know they wouldn't redeem Ra's over his daughter or the eco terrorist version of Ivy.

    With Wonder Woman she has many female baddies, but the real question is how many of them get used often?

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I see the case for the Male and Female Villain to anti-hero ratio... Like when it comes to characters like the Riddler and Clayface vs. Poison Ivy and Harley, the fact that there are so many prominent male villains who are indeed NOT going to be redeemed, the former two see like drops in the ocean compared to the latter two when the only prominent bad gals besides those two in the Bat rogues gallery are Catwoman and Talia, who were less villainous than Harley and Ivy ever were. Hilarious in retrospect as Ivy's original purpose was to be a prominent female criminal as Catwoman was softened at the time. So it feels like more female villains are being softened up in comparison to their male counterparts as the pool is much smaller. I mean look at Ivy and Talia in comparison to Ra's? The endgame and goals are similar, but you know they wouldn't redeem Ra's over his daughter or the eco terrorist version of Ivy.

    With Wonder Woman she has many female baddies, but the real question is how many of them get used often?
    Amazing that Talia can actually rape someone and be called less villainous, but a good example of what we’ve been talking about.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  7. #67
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    18,775

    Default

    Talia has been pretty damn villainous in her recent appearances and most of Diana's female villains haven't been redeemed. Or even been portrayed as being particularly sympathetic.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Talia has been pretty damn villainous in her recent appearances and most of Diana's female villains haven't been redeemed. Or even been portrayed as being particularly sympathetic.
    I would say Giganta, Cheetah and Cale all get shown in a pretty sympathetic light compared to characters like Mongol, Killer Croc and Ras Al Ghul.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  9. #69
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    18,775

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I would say Giganta, Cheetah and Cale all get shown in a pretty sympathetic light compared to characters like Mongol, Killer Croc and Ras Al Ghul.
    Last I heard of Croc, they'd retconned it so that he never actually ate people and is in a Beauty and The Beast-style relationship with June Moone. And Ra's for a long time was depicted as an antivillain whom even Batman had some degree of respect for.

    Orlando also had the Bana leader as antagonistic and Circe, Zara, Blue Snowman etc aren't shown as sympathetic.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-27-2019 at 01:54 AM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,085

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Last I heard of Croc, they'd retconned it so that he never actually ate people. And Ra's for a long time was depicted as an antivillain whom even Batman had some degree of respect for.

    Orlanda also had the Bana leader as antagonistic and Circe, Zara, Blue Snowman etc aren't shown as sympathetic.
    That's because they're rarely shown but when she is, Circe is sympathetic too.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,489

    Default

    The current versions of Cheetah and Cale work better being somewhat sympathetic. They've had aspects of Golden Age Priscilla Rich and Paula von Gunther folded into them respectively, so it's inevitable. The core concept of the Cheetah back in the Golden Age was a woman struggling with her good and evil sides, and she works best that way. I don't think it absolves them of their actions. Barbara Ann in particular can naturally go down a darker, increasingly monstrous path without losing her tragic foundation.

    But yeah, it would be nice to give more page time to complete, unrepentant a-holes like Poison and Clea to balance it out.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    That's because they're rarely shown but when she is, Circe is sympathetic too.
    I would agree. Circe used to be a straight up “I’m gonna kill Wonder Woman and live forever” villain. Now, not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The current versions of Cheetah and Cale work better being somewhat sympathetic. They've had aspects of Golden Age Priscilla Rich and Paula von Gunther folded into them respectively, so it's inevitable. The core concept of the Cheetah back in the Golden Age was a woman struggling with her good and evil sides, and she works best that way. I don't think it absolves them of their actions. Barbara Ann in particular can naturally go down a darker, increasingly monstrous path without losing her tragic foundation.

    But yeah, it would be nice to give more page time to complete, unrepentant a-holes like Poison and Clea to balance it out.
    I was thinking of these two as well. I liked how in the movie, Poison is just a straight up sadist. Her scene with Steve showed some of her back story motivation but they never had her do a face turn.
    Last edited by brettc1; 03-27-2019 at 01:21 AM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  13. #73
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    18,775

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    That's because they're rarely shown but when she is, Circe is sympathetic too.
    When has Circe been shown as sympathetic? She seems more like a wild card at best.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,085

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When has Circe been shown as sympathetic? She seems more like a wild card at best.
    She's a wild card, but since rebirth her motivation isn't simply "I hate Wonder Woman and want to make her life as difficult a possible, before I kill her". She's a magic user for hire that helped Cale because of their business arrangement, not because she's Evil. She still has a grudge against the Amazons but she's more passive and reasonable about it now, at least in the WW book.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    2,107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    She's a wild card, but since rebirth her motivation isn't simply "I hate Wonder Woman and want to make her life as difficult a possible, before I kill her". She's a magic user for hire that helped Cale because of their business arrangement, not because she's Evil. She still has a grudge against the Amazons but she's more passive and reasonable about it now, at least in the WW book.
    My fave Circe moment was when she literally BECAME Wonder Woman. Why kill your enemy when you've stolen her powers?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •