Doomsday Clock next issue is due out . . .

[BohemiaDrinker]

And here’s the real crux to our disagreement. I’m sure we could go round and round on the details of our specific arguments for days and days...and that’d probably be pretty fun, too Unfortunately (and fortunately for my bank account), I’ve just found out that I’ve got a new full time job on top of all my two other full time jobs and I no longer have the time to do that anymore—which is maybe why I have so much sympathy for Johns in regards to the Doomsday Clock delays.

Hey, I have a lot of sympathy fo Johns on the delays. I'm just pointing out that he is most probably getting screwed,

At the very least, we can agree that we’re both hoping the final issue of Doomsday Clock is worthy of the work Johns & Frank have put into it, regardless of what either of us thinks Didio may or may not be doing.

Meh, I'm not a fan of Johns going meta, this book is no different.

So, in the interests of time management and me not getting fired/divorced, let’s just cut to the end where we both agree to disagree because I choose to be optimistic whereas you choose to be cynical, and both of us end up being proven right and/or wrong half the time.

Calling me a cynical is a mis-representation,, but I don't really care. Now Bored, and I say this with all due respect, what you don't get to do is impose your point of view as the truth, ignore all evidence to the contrary, dismiss everyone who do not ignore such evidence as "conspiracy theorists" (seriously dude, "flat Earth"?) and tell such people to basically shut-up.

There's more out there to sutain Johns being either sabotaged - or losing interest with comics by having become sort of a persona non grata at the writers summits - than to the over-simplistic "Johns is busy, Dan is trying his best" that you're painting.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm not saying that Doomsday Clock was ever bad. But it was always empty. Sure, it gave more of that pure sugary Nostalgia to the fans who so clearly relished it with the Rebirth Special and initiative, which allowed DC and themselves to slash and burn everything done during the New 52, as if nothing even average had been done there, often in the most petty of manners (with Greg Rucka and Dan Jurgens taking the spotlight for most blatant and arrogant shots at what came before). But Doomsday Clock was full of problems from the star, which would have always precluded it from being that great game-changer in the DC Universe so many clearly craved.

Because, unlike Metal which -while clearly not as well crafted as Doomsday Clock told a far better story, adding things up to the DCU instead of erasing more to bring back some selective pieces of its past- Doomsday Clock was too hang-up with being the "new Watchmen" but in the DCU, with aberrant choices (such as setting the story one or some years in the future is almost always a receipt for disaster, especially in a universe like comics, with dozens of creators working separately from each other) to truly create more, to be, for a lack of better term, generous. Snyder can sometimes be too much, creating too much new things, so being generous isn't in itself a quality, but by trying to be a worthy Watchmen successor, Doomsday Clock could never marry the nihilistic tone of its precursor with an expansion of the DCU.

Johns did try to add things up (the Supermen Theory, the Khandaq as a refuge for metahumans), but, let's be honest. Did anyone ever believed that such monumental elements could be truly treated in a satisfying way in a 12 issues series ? So far, those elements were mostly used so that Black Adam would punch Superman into Dr. Manhattan. Literally. By trying to tell an incredibly momentous story, Geoff Jonhs kind of shot himself in the foot, and we are left with what we have today, and I think that editorial intervention has very little to do with it.

At least, that's how I feel about the whole project.

So, in your own post, you say that Doomsday Clock didn't try to add anything new and then a few paragraphs later say that Doomsday Clock tried to add new elements??? Yeah. That's just painfully contradictory. Its also just factually inaccurate. The point of Doomsday Clock was to introduce a satisfying mystery for the heroes of the DC Universe to solve. And even though its been a slow burn and we already had a lot of the answers from the beginning, its done that. The mystery of Carver Colman and his importance to the DC Universe is probably one of the better plots in recent memory. Doomsday Clock is commonly referred to as the best book DC is putting out and has painted a DC Universe more fresh and exciting than it has been since 2011. I wish we could say that about some of DC's other output at the moment.

[Korath]

So, in your own post, you say that Doomsday Clock didn't try to add anything new and then a few paragraphs later say that Doomsday Clock tried to add things??? Yeah. That's just painfully contradictory. Its also just factually inaccurate. The point of Doomsday Clock was to introduce a satisfying mystery for the heroes of the DC Universe to solve. And even though its been a slow burn and we already had a lot of the answers from the beginning, its done that. The mystery of Carver Colman and his importance to the DC Universe is probably one of the better plots in recent memory. Doomsday Clock is commonly referred to as the best book DC is putting out and has painted a DC Universe more fresh and exciting than it has been since 2011. I wish we could say that about some of DC's other output at the moment.

Yes, Doomsday Clock added nothing. It tried. It failed. Because it never developped them correctly.

I'm sure that Coleman's plot must be important for the peoples who like the book, but the concept of the Metaverse did not warrant the use of so many panel of his movie. It only had so much because Johns was aping Watchmen.

I also find the idea that the Doomsday Clock's DC Universe is fresher than the New 52 or Rebirth itself utterly laughable, but that just me.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yes, Doomsday Clock added nothing. It tried. It failed. Because it never developped them correctly.

I'm sure that Coleman's plot must be important for the peoples who like the book, but the concept of the Metaverse did not warrant the use of so many panel of his movie. It only had so much because Johns was aping Watchmen.

I also find the idea that the Doomsday Clock's DC Universe is fresher than the New 52 or Rebirth itself utterly laughable, but that just me.

How can it fail when it reached and liked by the audience it was meant for? Sure, that is'nt for you. But, that doesn’t mean it failed. It just wasn't your taste. I could say teen titans go failed since i didn't like it. But, i would be wrong. It has its following.
New52 had nothing fresh. It was same old after reboot narrative. Heroes are introduced. They band together. They beat a villain. That's it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes, Doomsday Clock added nothing. It tried. It failed. Because it never developped them correctly.

Except I could argue that it did. Tell me, how did it not develop them correctly? Again, this book has been hailed as one of the best books being put out by DC right now and every time it comes out, people want more. So, obviously, its doing several things right.

I'm sure that Coleman's plot must be important for the peoples who like the book, but the concept of the Metaverse did not warrant the use of so many panel of his movie. It only had so much because Johns was aping Watchmen.

Uh, Johns was up front about this being a spiritual successor to Watchmen. That was kind of the point of this book. So, taking inspiration from the style Moore used in the original work is really not a flaw that you're interpreting it as. He used frames of the Carver Colman movies because he's important to the story of Dr. Manhattan in the DC Universe.

I also find the idea that the Doomsday Clock's DC Universe is fresher than the New 52 or Rebirth itself utterly laughable, but that just me.

It feels freasher because it actually feels like an interconnected and coherent universe that's been lived in. That's something that's been missing since 2011.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Calling me a cynical is a mis-representation,, but I don't really care. Now Bored, and I say this with all due respect, what you don't get to do is impose your point of view as the truth, ignore all evidence to the contrary, dismiss everyone who do not ignore such evidence as "conspiracy theorists" (seriously dude, "flat Earth"?) and tell such people to basically shut-up.

I am in no way telling anyone to "basically shut-up", nor have I attempted to impose my point of view as "the truth", in fact I'm pretty sure I've said more than once on either this thread or others that people were free to spout any theory they wanted (it's what comic fans do), but they shouldn't expect those theories to remain unchallenged or accepted as reality because they are based upon rumors and assumptions, just as I am also leaping to different conclusions based upon the available information.

However, if that's how you think I've come across, I apologize for any confusion, as that was not my intention. Also, if I have misrepresented your pretty consistently pessimistic views as cynicism, you have my apologies for that as well. I think assuming the worst intentions of people based upon industry gossip is deeply cynical and mean-spirited, but perhaps I'm projecting my own past cynicism and douchebaggery towards Marz, Dooley, and Carlin upon you.

[iron chimp]

At the end of the day about 175,000 people (USA sales international sales digital sales) have shelled out $50 each on a story that many thought was going to have a fundamental influence on the whole DCU before delays forced it to be downgraded and other events took its place.

So it's hardly surprising a proportion of readers are completely unamused.

[CaptCleghorn]

So it's hardly surprising a proportion of readers are completely unamused.

This is one of best description of fan reaction I've seen.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I am in no way telling anyone to "basically shut-up", nor have I attempted to impose my point of view as "the truth"

You categorized everyone with a POV distinct of yours as unsubstantiated or a conspiracy theory. When presented with a resumed timeline of facts -that, again, you're free to check for yourself - you dismissed them as "rumors".

And then you pointed out how unfair it is to point fingers at "people who are just trying to make the best comics they can". As if fact.

Also, if I have misrepresented your pretty consistently pessimistic views as cynicism, you have my apologies for that as well. I think assuming the worst intentions of people based upon industry gossip is deeply cynical and mean-spirited

And there you go again. Assuming that a scorpion is gonna sting me is neither pessimistic nor cynic. Reaching any conclusions based on past and consistent behavior, actual news, and rumors that turned to be confirmed is not "industry gossip" nor a "conspiracy theory". If you're not looking at stuff as closely as others are, that's fine, but your choice of optimism and believing the best in people and all of that does not warrant you the right to simply dismiss everything that contradicts your view as non-factual.

IF we go solely by rumors, then "Johns being sabotaged" has been making the rounds since before DClock went "by-monthly". Is he? We don't know, but it was a hell of a late paying bet for all those saying it back then...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

You categorized everyone with a POV distinct of yours as unsubstantiated or a conspiracy theory. When presented with a resumed timeline of facts -that, again, you're free to check for yourself - you dismissed them as "rumors".

And then you pointed out how unfair it is to point fingers at "people who are just trying to make the best comics they can". As if fact.

And there you go again. Assuming that a scorpion is gonna sting me is neither pessimistic nor cynic. Reaching any conclusions based on past and consistent behavior, actual news, and rumors that turned to be confirmed is not "industry gossip" nor a "conspiracy theory". If you're not looking at stuff as closely as others are, that's fine, but your choice of optimism and believing the best in people and all of that does not warrant you the right to simply dismiss everything that contradicts your view as non-factual.

IF we go solely by rumors, then "Johns being sabotaged" has been making the rounds since before DClock went "by-monthly". Is he? We don't know, but it was a hell of a late paying bet for all those saying it back then...

Ok, I've got a little time before work, so I'll try to address your timeline of "facts"

• Once the Rebirth initiative launched, there was a "Rebirth" corner, which was clearly reporting to Johns (even though he didn't have official editorial position at the time) and a "New Age of Heroes" corner, who was doing Metal and related stuff.

This is a mix of facts and rumors. Johns was asked by Didio to oversee the initial launch of Rebirth. Johns organized a "writer's room" to discuss each book and figure out how to refocus the DC line down to the essential core of each character/concept. Everything, including Rebirth, was overseen by Didio, because he's still the guy in charge of DC Comics.

• AT&T bought WB.

No disagreement here, but not evidence of DC screwing over Johns.

• Johns ceased to an employee at DC.

I'm not going to split hairs with you over what defines an employee, but suffice it to say that the numerous projects that Johns is working on for Warner Bros. are still his primary source of income and his power within the corporate pecking order is likely several times more important than Didio's (although we'll no doubt argue over that one)

• Rebirth was undone almost immediately (thematically, at least), and the guys from the "Metal" corner of things became the top dogs.

Rebirth being undone is not a fact, this is an opinion. With Johns busy doing his Hollywood stuff, Snyder was definitely considered the top creative force at DC though.

• DClock started being delayed. (And while that's not true now, as Gary Frank recently said to be at half the last issue, at some point in the past the same Frank also said that he was completely on schedule and had no idea what the delays were about). Shazam is at worse condition. Previously mentioned 3 Jokers is in Limbo.

I haven't seen those specific comments by Gary Frank, so I can't comment on how accurate that is. The delays on Shazam and 3 Jokers can be much more more easily viewed as evidence that Doomsday Clock's delays are the result of Johns being too busy, than that Johns is being screwed over by editorial.

• The whole "JSA and LSH" thing was taken off Johns hand, mostly.

DC waited until Johns & Frank reintroduced them in Doomsday Clock before letting them be used by Bendis & Snyder. That's hardly evidence that Johns is being screwed over. If anything, the fact that Johns was able to hold the JSA, LSH & Shazam in limbo for so long is a testament to how much power he still wields.

• We've got the first Geoff Johns event ever with an underwhelming pay-off (As critical as I am of the guy, he usually delivers what he promises at the start of a story. It's the promises he makes I'm not usually fond off, but that's another matter).

Again, not a fact, particularly given that the story isn't finished, so we haven't even seen what the pay-off will be, underwhelming or not.

So, I'm sorry, but, if these are the facts that you think prove your case, then this is indeed a conspiracy theory based upon the assumption of bad faith and ill-intentions which I have been talking about. If you go into any situation believing in the very worst of people, then it's extraordinarily easy to find some way of showing how they are trying to screw you over. If you view a person as a scorpion, then of course you are going to think they're going to sting you. If you view yourself as a hammer, the entire world looks like a nail. If you view yourself as an aggrieved DC fan, then DC Editorial naturally seems like a den of vipers out to screw over everything you hold dear.

This is not a great way to approach life.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Ok, I've got a little time before work, so I'll try to address your timeline of "facts"


This is a mix of facts and rumors. Johns was asked by Didio to oversee the initial launch of Rebirth. Johns organized a "writer's room" to discuss each book and figure out how to refocus the DC line down to the essential core of each character/concept. Everything, including Rebirth, was overseen by Didio, because he's still the guy in charge of DC Comics.

Yeah, but not really. Didio did take a major step back regarding creative decisions. Go watch the Rebirth live announcement, this is stated a few times. (Including by himself)

I'm not going to split hairs with you over what defines an employee, but suffice it to say that the numerous projects that Johns is working on for Warner Bros. are still his primary source of income and his power within the corporate pecking order is likely several times more important than Didio's (although we'll no doubt argue over that one)

Well, WB is not DC. If it was, the Snyderverse wouldn't have happened. But even if it was just one big company, Johns "position" (which is non-existant right now) still would leave him with absolutely no controle over anything at the comics division. The only thing you can say he has is clout: and being savy as he is, he wouldn't spend it in a story taht, at tis point, doesn't matter anyway.

Rebirth being undone is not a fact, this is an opinion. With Johns busy doing his Hollywood stuff, Snyder was definitely considered the top creative force at DC though.

Yeah, it's a fact. It's "Year of the Villain" yet again, and we've all been to this rodeo before.

I haven't seen those specific comments by Gary Frank, so I can't comment on how accurate that is. The delays on Shazam and 3 Jokers can be much more more easily viewed as evidence that Doomsday Clock's delays are the result of Johns being too busy, than that Johns is being screwed over by editorial.

Keyword: "can be".

DC waited until Johns & Frank reintroduced them in Doomsday Clock before letting them be used by Bendis & Snyder. That's hardly evidence that Johns is being screwed over. If anything, the fact that Johns was able to hold the JSA, LSH & Shazam in limbo for so long is a testament to how much power he still wields.

Or he was used as an excuse to hold in Limbo properties that Editorial dowesn't d care for anyway. Wouldn't be the first time. Or the second. And then comes Bendis, etc, etc...

Again, not a fact, particularly given that the story isn't finished, so we haven't even seen what the pay-off will be, underwhelming or not.

Okay, I grant you, that is an opinion, which wouldn't be included there if I proof read the post. Still, do you believe there's space for a satisfying pay-off in one more issue? Do you really think the narrative started in DCU: Rebirth will be closed here, with all it's elements addressed, in the same vein that Johns always did?

So, I'm sorry, but, if these are the facts that you think prove your case, then this is indeed a conspiracy theory

Dude, no one said "proof". It's about likelihood.

based upon the assumption of bad faith and ill-intentions which I have been talking about.

Again, it's not an assumption if it's based on past behavior. Past "documented" behavior. Which is more than the thin air you based your "best intentions" take on, is all I'm saying.

If you go into any situation believing in the very worst of people, then it's extraordinarily easy to find some way of showing how they are trying to screw you over.

Ok, but if you go into any situation assuming a person is gonna behave the same way they always did, chances are you're going to be right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you view a person as a scorpion, then of course you are going to think they're going to sting you. If

Okay, but if you view a scorpion as a benevolent being, of course you're gonna get stung. Same principle applies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is not a great way to approach life.

It's a great way to approach life. Sting free.

[ArthurCurry]

For what its worth I think it's more likely than not there are backstage shenanigans with release dates being used against Geoff Johns. You don't go from A+ talent to being unable to finish a mini-series. Especially when you have people in positions of management that may hold a grudge for your time in the sun. It could be all bunk, but we just don't know. These are unsubstantiated opinions, not conspiracy theories.

[iron chimp]

What's the story with Gary Frank selling unused pages?
Are these from an aborted script?
Havent read whole thread so maybe somebody's already asked this

[BohemiaDrinker]

You don't go from A+ talent to being unable to finish a mini-series. Especially when you have people in positions of management that may hold a grudge for your time in the sun. It could be all bunk, but we just don't know.

I'd tend to agree, but then there are all those old stories with Waid, Rucka, Ellis, PaD...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, but not really. Didio did take a major step back regarding creative decisions. Go watch the Rebirth live announcement, this is stated a few times. (Including by himself)

Well, WB is not DC. If it was, the Snyderverse wouldn't have happened. But even if it was just one big company, Johns "position" (which is non-existant right now) still would leave him with absolutely no controle over anything at the comics division. The only thing you can say he has is clout: and being savy as he is, he wouldn't spend it in a story taht, at tis point, doesn't matter anyway.

Yeah, it's a fact. It's "Year of the Villain" yet again, and we've all been to this rodeo before.

Keyword: "can be".

Or he was used as an excuse to hold in Limbo properties that Editorial dowesn't d care for anyway. Wouldn't be the first time. Or the second. And then comes Bendis, etc, etc...

Okay, I grant you, that is an opinion, which wouldn't be included there if I proof read the post. Still, do you believe there's space for a satisfying pay-off in one more issue? Do you really think the narrative started in DCU: Rebirth will be closed here, with all it's elements addressed, in the same vein that Johns always did?

Dude, no one said "proof". It's about likelihood.

Again, it's not an assumption if it's based on past behavior. Past "documented" behavior. Which is more than the thin air you based your "best intentions" take on, is all I'm saying.

Ok, but if you go into any situation assuming a person is gonna behave the same way they always did, chances are you're going to be right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Okay, but if you view a scorpion as a benevolent being, of course you're gonna get stung. Same principle applies. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's a great way to approach life. Sting free.

Which brings us back to where I thought we'd end up, in which I choose to look at it from the perspective of hope while you choose to believe that things are going to be terrible.

If you always think people are going to be awful, you might very well be protecting yourself from disappointment, but, whether you want to admit it or not, that is indeed cynicism. Believe me when I say that I know the comforting protective shell of being cynical about all things comics very well and it accomplished absolutely nothing positive for me. In the end, though, it's completely your choice. All I can do is try to convince you that there's another way of looking at things. A lot of times, I'm completely wrong and things end up being $#!*, but that's okay. That's not the way life works. Things aren't always going to turn out the way you want them to. However, automatically assuming the worst of people simply because they've made some bad creative choices we disagree with is not a way to approach a hobby that's meant to bring you happiness.

You spend your time and money on these silly ridiculously attired fictional characters because, at some point in your life, they brought you joy and hope. As a result, these characters mean something to all of us. Letting that love curdle into resentment and anger is never a good thing. It's toxic for ourselves, our fellow fans, and, frankly, to everyday lives. Carrying around such strong negative feelings about anyone or anything is simply not healthy.

Thanks for hearing me out, and I'm sorry if I've come across too preachy or self-righteous during our debates. That is never my intention. It's just that I truly believe this kneejerk assumption of bad intentions has become one of the worst aspects of geek fandom. It's already infected Star Wars, Star Trek, video games, and more. We're increasingly viewing each other as warring tribes in not just politics, but in our very entainment. Sooner or later, we've got to pause for a second to take a breath, and realise that it's not healthy to automatically view creators whose decisions we disagree with as horrible people.