Doomsday Clock next issue is due out . . .

[CaptCleghorn]

I also think that along with the vitriol that some fans levy towards Didio, they conversely view Johns as their champion - like Johns is trying to keep continuity and characters in tact, while Didio is thwarting him at every move.

I know that not to be true, but some fans see it that way.

Assuming Johns and Didio have different ideas for the direction of overall DC storylines, It seems natural that fans could easily prefer one to the other. And while there really is no good vs. evil connotation here, preferring one to the other is natural. Fans need to take more care in phrasing their desires so as not to paint a side as evil or villainous.

[manwhohaseverything]

The flaw with Rebirth and Doomsday Clock is that Doomsday Clock should have started about 6 months after the Rebirth Special, should have been a monthly title, and should have been well finished by now, establishing the new status quo for DC by 2018 and beyond. By the time Doomsday Clock saw print, the momentum of Rebirth had all but diminished, and Doomsday Clock's erratic schedule has ensured that its impact to the DCU will be minimal as DC has clearly moved towards a different direction.

I agree with that. Overall,this thing is heavily mismanaged. I guess, i am more forgiving of johns for the delays than the management for meddling with the message. Reboots are a dime a dozen. But, rebirth was bringing back stuff in a way that celebrated the history. That was what i liked and think was different.rebooting the legion inside this book and disregarding the history of the team feels like watering down the message.

[Vordan]

I also think that along with the vitriol that some fans levy towards Didio, they conversely view Johns as their champion - like Johns is trying to keep continuity and characters in tact, while Didio is thwarting him at every move.

I know that not to be true, but some fans see it that way.

People definitely do. I can be guilty of this myself. Sometimes I forget that Johns is the guy who turned Superboy-Prime into a whiny nostalgic fanboy who beats the original Superman to death. He certainly has no problem being brutal to the old characters when he wants to be.

[manwhohaseverything]

I believe,fans(myself including) see didio as embodiment of new52 that erased wally. Geoff John's as embodiment of rebirth who restored him.it also doesn't help that fans think didio has it out for wally(maybe it's true) . So, this didio vs john's thing only gets more fuel.I guess, i have been prejudiced. I apologise, if i have hurt any sentiments and was just causing only negativity.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Despite the popular belief, Rebirth is Didio's idea as much as the New52. Dan was the one pitching Rebirth to Jonhs. It was brought up several times on this board. Some will probably have better articles about it, but you can look at this one: https://screenrant.com/geoff-johns-d...rth-explained/

Edit: Found another article:

So what was the origin of Rebirth? How did it get started?

Jonhs: [...] Dan [Didio, DC co-publisher] and Jim said that they wanted to stop everything at issue 52 and restart all the titles again, and my first reaction was probably everyone's reaction: Why? Why do that beyond having a new No. 1? Dan said that he wanted to call it Rebirth, and I said, "Woah woah woah. Let me sit with this and come back with you."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ringing-897289

[Scott Taylor]

Rebirth came out at a good time, though, and was refreshing after most of the New52 had become stale.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Sorry, but, again, not liking Dan Didio or his mismanagement of the original Teen Titans generation is not evidence that editorial is responsible for the delays that Doomsday Clock has had. Just because it fits your preconceptions does not make it more or less likely to be true.

It's not a "preconception. Their head-butts have been reported ad nauseaum. You just have to look for it. Hell, look around well enough you may fund Johns himself talking about, with Didio by his side, at a one hell of an akward conversation.

The only facts that are currently known are that Geoff Johns has an immensely time consuming workload. We also know that Jason Fabok asked Tom King if he wanted to collaborate on a comic while he was waiting for Johns to deliver his scripts for Three Jokers, which were delayed because Johns was so busy doing all his Hollywood gigs.

Ah, 3 jokers. We're yet to see what will be the deal with this one...

Given all this, what's more likely, that Johns has been late delivering scripts because of his workload and wanting to make sure he's delivering a story worthy of Watchmen or that Dan Didio is deliberately mucking with Geoff Johns, who now has vastly more corporate power within Warner Bros than Didio? Yes, Didio was able to boss Johns around before, particularly with Infinite Crisis, but even now that Johns is not President of DC Films, he's still producing/writing for half their output. Didio is a smart enough corporate animal to let Johns do his own thing, particularly given how well received Doomsday Clock has been, both critically and financially.

If you look at this objectively, rather than through the lense of "Dan Didio wants to break all my favorite stuff", these conspiracy theories do not hold up to any scrutiny.

See, I think you're mixing up 2019 with 2017. Johns is not even a DC employee anymore. What we actually know for facts here is:

• Once the Rebirth initiative launched, there was a "Rebirth" corner, which was clearly reporting to Johns (even though he didn't have official editorial position at the time) and a "New Age of Heroes" corner, who was doing Metal and related stuff.
• AT&T bought WB.
• Johns ceased to an employee at DC.
• Rebirth was undone almost immediately (thematically, at least), and the guys from the "Metal" corner of things became the top dogs.
• DClock started being delayed. (And while that's not true now, as Gary Frank recently said to be at half the last issue, at some point in the past the same Frank also said that he was completely on schedule and had no idea what the delays were about). Shazam is at worse condition. Previously mentioned 3 Jokers is in Limbo.
• The whole "JSA and LSH" thing was taken off Johns hand, mostly.
• We've got the first Geoff Johns event ever with an underwhelming pay-off (As critical as I am of the guy, he usually delivers what he promises at the start of a story. It's the promises he makes I'm not usually fond off, but that's another matter).

Now, none of this is a conspiracy theory. It's actually a timeline, you can look it up now if you want.

Now, has Didio readjusted the direction of the DCU from what Johns originally intended when he started Rebirth because of how delayed Doomsday Clock has been. That's probably true, but since nobody but Johns ever seemed privy to what that direction was supposed to be, we'll never know. Rucka stated that he wasn't told what the overall plan with Rebirth was, and he was in charge of relaunching Wonder Woman. Giffen similarly didn't know. It's entirely possible that they were winging it to see what worked and what didn't. We also know that, at one point, Johns decided against doing his follow-up to Rebirth altogether until Trump's election changed his mind. My guess is that it's always been in flux.

Which is sort of meaningless. Penned by Johns or not, there was a plan in place. It's not what we got. (Per Brett Booth's twitter, pretty outspoken fella). You may choose to put 2 + 2 together or not, but it is what it is.

But I don't really know, and nobody on this board does either. Spreading unsubstantiated conspiracy theories that assign malice towards people who are just trying to create good comics is not something I think creates a healthy atmosphere on these forums, which are already overflowing with resentment and anger. I see no reason to throw more gasoline on that fire.

Yeah, you may say that any conclusion reached by anyone who is looking a little more closely is an "unsubstantiated conspiracy theory". But if you look at stuff and looks like someone lost an editorial tug of war that we all know existed by last 10 years or so, and the guy who looks like he's lost it is the one under the bus, and the one who looks he won starts doing exactly the same shit he's always either done or tried to do during all this time, I prefer to call it "a pretty safe bet". No benefit in rose colored glasses from where I'm standing.

[astro@work]

Okay. What evidence do you have to support the idea that DC Editorial is delaying Doomsday Clock? The only whiff I've heard of anyone other than Johns & Frank having complete control over this was when they had to delay one issue to get approval from the Russian government for their depiction of Putin, who promptly leaked the issue to Russian pirate sites.

There has been literally nothing put in print to validate editorial interference is the reason for the delays.

I have yet to see any article published that included any specific reasons. Literally not one. Most of the Newsarama articles have ended with the statement (paraphrasing):
We reached out to DC for a comment and there was no response.

Truly the only thing that has seen print is Gary Frank going on record that he is NOT the reason for the delays. (Including drawn art of the JSA from issue #10 long before it saw print).

Honestly the fact that Shazam has been postponed indefinitely and the 3 Jokers Mini has yet to see a solicit after all this time tells me it's NOT editorial interference holding things up.

Purely my own speculation, but I'd guess Johns is too heavily involved in the upcoming Stargirl TV show to find the time to finish the writing chores for D-Clock and Shazam.

..and at this point it's ALL speculation because not one reason for the delays has ever been offered up.

[CaptCleghorn]

..and at this point it's ALL speculation because not one reason for the delays has ever been offered up.

Which isn't surprising. The two biggest theories are that Johns is slow and DC is tweaking.changing DClock and rewriting and redrawing causes the delays. Neither seems like a reason anyone at DC would gain anything by verifying. Throwing Johns under the bus or stating editporial interference seem like ways for a DC staffer to lose face and gain disfavor.

[kingaliencracker]

It's not a "preconception. Their head-butts have been reported ad nauseaum. You just have to look for it. Hell, look around well enough you may fund Johns himself talking about, with Didio by his side, at a one hell of an akward conversation.



Ah, 3 jokers. We're yet to see what will be the deal with this one...



See, I think you're mixing up 2019 with 2017. Johns is not even a DC employee anymore. What we actually know for facts here is:

• Once the Rebirth initiative launched, there was a "Rebirth" corner, which was clearly reporting to Johns (even though he didn't have official editorial position at the time) and a "New Age of Heroes" corner, who was doing Metal and related stuff.
• AT&T bought WB.
• Johns ceased to an employee at DC.
• Rebirth was undone almost immediately (thematically, at least), and the guys from the "Metal" corner of things became the top dogs.
• DClock started being delayed. (And while that's not true now, as Gary Frank recently said to be at half the last issue, at some point in the past the same Frank also said that he was completely on schedule and had no idea what the delays were about). Shazam is at worse condition. Previously mentioned 3 Jokers is in Limbo.
• The whole "JSA and LSH" thing was taken off Johns hand, mostly.
• We've got the first Geoff Johns event ever with an underwhelming pay-off (As critical as I am of the guy, he usually delivers what he promises at the start of a story. It's the promises he makes I'm not usually fond off, but that's another matter).

Now, none of this is a conspiracy theory. It's actually a timeline, you can look it up now if you want.



Which is sort of meaningless. Penned by Johns or not, there was a plan in place. It's not what we got. (Per Brett Booth's twitter, pretty outspoken fella). You may choose to put 2 + 2 together or not, but it is what it is.



Yeah, you may say that any conclusion reached by anyone who is looking a little more closely is an "unsubstantiated conspiracy theory". But if you look at stuff and looks like someone lost an editorial tug of war that we all know existed by last 10 years or so, and the guy who looks like he's lost it is the one under the bus, and the one who looks he won starts doing exactly the same shit he's always either done or tried to do during all this time, I prefer to call it "a pretty safe bet". No benefit in rose colored glasses from where I'm standing.

I think fans would agree that Johns' vision of the DCU differs from Didio to varying degrees, although I don't think they're as far off as some fans think. They've been able to work together on several high profile projects for 20 years, when I'm sure Marvel would have loved to have snatched up Johns as they did Loeb, Waid, and Millar in the mid-2000's when those three allegedly had a falling out with Didio. Johns could walk into Marvel now and likely get a lot of high profile projects so why would he stick around DC/WB if his relationship with Didio was so bad and editorial influence so heavy that it's affecting the quality of his work? Or why not turn these projects down if he feels like his work is being changed too much that his vision is being lost, given that he's no longer directly employed by DC but rather WB?

I go back to Shazam on this. There's no reason or even the faintest of rumors that editorial is interfering with Johns with regards to Shazam, and that's been delayed indefinitely. I have questions if Three Jokers will ever see the light of day, and at this point I would say scrap it and move on because I hated the concept to begin with. I think comic books just aren't a priority for Johns right now and this is the result of that.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I believe,fans(myself including) see didio as embodiment of new52 that erased wally. Geoff John's as embodiment of rebirth who restored him.it also doesn't help that fans think didio has it out for wally(maybe it's true) . So, this didio vs john's thing only gets more fuel.I guess, i have been prejudiced. I apologise, if i have hurt any sentiments and was just causing only negativity.

Being able to step back and reassess your opinions is not always easy to do, so you have my highest respect for doing so. I've had to the same thing more times than I can count. I was a world-class prick at times towards Ron Marz, Kevin Dooley & Mike Carlin during the dark old days of post-Emerald Twilight era because I felt so upset over what those guys were doing to characters I loved. It took me far too long to realise that these guys were just trying to create good comics, and they just had a different opinion about how best to do that.

It's very easy for fans to leap to the worst conclusions about the intentions of people within the comics industry. It's much harder to think people are just trying to entertain us.

[CaptCleghorn]

Being able to step back and reassess your opinions is not always easy to do, so you have my highest respect for doing so. I've had to the same thing more times than I can count. I was a world-class prick at times towards Ron Marz, Kevin Dooley & Mike Carlin during the dark old days of post-Emerald Twilight era because I felt so upset over what those guys were doing to characters I loved. It took me far too long to realise that these guys were just trying to create good comics, and they just had a different opinion about how best to do that.

It's very easy for fans to leap to the worst conclusions about the intentions of people within the comics industry. It's much harder to think people are just trying to entertain us.

Exactly. It's a lot like watching a sporting event and disagreeing with what the pitch is, or what play should be called. We may disagree, but it's pretty much a universal fact that few are trying to fail or lose the game. Where sports differ is even though the coach makes a call we disagree with, the game can still be won and that's our goal. Comics differ in that how they're created is the goal. Sales or the number of other people pleased don't mean much to me if I don't like the book or its direction.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It's not a "preconception. Their head-butts have been reported ad nauseaum. You just have to look for it. Hell, look around well enough you may fund Johns himself talking about, with Didio by his side, at a one hell of an akward conversation.

There's no doubt that Johns & Didio have had, and continue to have, creative disagreements over the DCU. That's part of any artistic discussion. You and I disagree on certain things as well, but we still have respect for one another. Why can't the same be true for Johns & Didio? They've worked together closely for nearly two decades now.

See, I think you're mixing up 2019 with 2017. Johns is not even a DC employee anymore. What we actually know for facts here is:

• Once the Rebirth initiative launched, there was a "Rebirth" corner, which was clearly reporting to Johns (even though he didn't have official editorial position at the time) and a "New Age of Heroes" corner, who was doing Metal and related stuff.
• AT&T bought WB.
• Johns ceased to an employee at DC.
• Rebirth was undone almost immediately (thematically, at least), and the guys from the "Metal" corner of things became the top dogs.
• DClock started being delayed. (And while that's not true now, as Gary Frank recently said to be at half the last issue, at some point in the past the same Frank also said that he was completely on schedule and had no idea what the delays were about). Shazam is at worse condition. Previously mentioned 3 Jokers is in Limbo.
• The whole "JSA and LSH" thing was taken off Johns hand, mostly.
• We've got the first Geoff Johns event ever with an underwhelming pay-off (As critical as I am of the guy, he usually delivers what he promises at the start of a story. It's the promises he makes I'm not usually fond off, but that's another matter).

Now, none of this is a conspiracy theory. It's actually a timeline, you can look it up now if you want.

Many of those point are not facts, but suppositions based upon rumors, and the idea that Johns is no longer an employee at DC is patently ridiculous. He's the producer/writer on both Wonder Woman 1984 and Aquaman 2 and Shazam 2, in addition to producing Titans and Doom Patrol, and being showrunner for Stargirl. Those are all extremely big jobs at DC, in addition to writing what I'm guessing is DC's top selling comic (when it comes out at least).

Which is sort of meaningless. Penned by Johns or not, there was a plan in place. It's not what we got. (Per Brett Booth's twitter, pretty outspoken fella). You may choose to put 2 + 2 together or not, but it is what it is.

I'm unfamiliar with whatever Booth has said. Could you fill me in there? Thanks.

Yeah, you may say that any conclusion reached by anyone who is looking a little more closely is an "unsubstantiated conspiracy theory". But if you look at stuff and looks like someone lost an editorial tug of war that we all know existed by last 10 years or so, and the guy who looks like he's lost it is the one under the bus, and the one who looks he won starts doing exactly the same shit he's always either done or tried to do during all this time, I prefer to call it "a pretty safe bet". No benefit in rose colored glasses from where I'm standing.

Sure, if you choose to assume the worst possible intentions on everyone involved, any conspiracy theory can be seen as valid. If I make a bunch of bad faith assumptions about the aeronautics industry, I can make Flat Earth look like it isn't ridiculous. If I assume that NASA was nothing but a bunch of ex-Nazis, the idea that we faked the moon landing becomes plausible.

However, that doesn't make those theories true, even if there are elements of truth sprinkled in.

[BohemiaDrinker]

There's no doubt that Johns & Didio have had, and continue to have, creative disagreements over the DCU. That's part of any artistic discussion. You and I disagree on certain things as well, but we still have respect for one another. Why can't the same be true for Johns & Didio? They've worked together closely for nearly two decades now.

It could be true. Every account that we have point that it's not.

Many of those point are not facts, but suppositions based upon rumors

Care to say which ones?

, and the idea that Johns is no longer an employee at DC is patently ridiculous.

No, the idea that he is not an employee at DC is cold, hard fact. Johns stepped down from his positions at DC and DCE last year and opened up his own producing company, Mad Ghost. Whatever job he has with DC and or WB is routed trough that. He works for himself and sell things for DC. He has no editorial or corporate position, no exclusivity deal and really no work-link with the company anymore. This has been true for a while.

It says so in his wikipedia page, even:

He's the producer/writer on both Wonder Woman 1984 and Aquaman 2 and Shazam 2, in addition to producing Titans and Doom Patrol, and being showrunner for Stargirl. Those are all extremely big jobs at DC

No, those are extremely big projects at Warner Brothers. We're talking comics here, and DC Comics is it's own company, even if controlled by the parent ones (WB, DCE, AT&T and God knows how many at this point).

, in addition to writing what I'm guessing is DC's top selling comic (when it comes out at least).

Yeah, the one that started publication, with a clear premise and promise, when Johns was a golden boy and top dog at DC.

Before he stepped down and started his own company, before AT&T bought WB (with DC in the package), before a bunch of editors were laid off for whatever company restructuring there was, and before every comic that was following the Rebirth narrative got axed or started going all Metal.

You know, all those things that happened around the same time when Johns stuff started getting really delayed.

I'm unfamiliar with whatever Booth has said. Could you fill me in there? Thanks.

Back at the time of HiC #1, he said he was pissed, but he knew something bad was coming because he was aware of the original Rebirth plan. And that it was not that.

Sure, if you choose to assume the worst possible intentions on everyone involved, any conspiracy theory can be seen as valid. If I make a bunch of bad faith assumptions about the aeronautics industry, I can make Flat Earth look like it isn't ridiculous. If I assume that NASA was nothing but a bunch of ex-Nazis, the idea that we faked the moon landing becomes plausible.

Dude, I won't even respond to a comparison to these lunacies.

However, that doesn't make those theories true, even if there are elements of truth sprinkled in.

Yeah, well, "I believe the best in people" doesn't make people good people, either.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, well, "I believe the best in people" doesn't make people good people, either.

And here’s the real crux to our disagreement. I’m sure we could go round and round on the details of our specific arguments for days and days...and that’d probably be pretty fun, too Unfortunately (and fortunately for my bank account), I’ve just found out that I’ve got a new full time job on top of all my two other full time jobs and I no longer have the time to do that anymore—which is maybe why I have so much sympathy for Johns in regards to the Doomsday Clock delays.

So, in the interests of time management and me not getting fired/divorced, let’s just cut to the end where we both agree to disagree because I choose to be optimistic whereas you choose to be cynical, and both of us end up being proven right and/or wrong half the time.

At the very least, we can agree that we’re both hoping the final issue of Doomsday Clock is worthy of the work Johns & Frank have put into it, regardless of what either of us thinks Didio may or may not be doing.