Doomsday Clock next issue is due out . . .

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Of course, he had a huge hand in creating the DC Bronze Age in the first place. I guess the Giordano giveth, and the Giordano taketh away.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Everyone is a hero and villain depending upon who is telling the story and what part of their life you're talking about. In Giordano's case, I think he contributed more good to DC than bad, even if some of the bad decisions he made still haunt DC to this day.

With Didio, it's a little more fraught. Irregardless of when you pick, Didio is giving the greenlight to absolutely great stuff I adore, while simultaneously concocting some of the worst stuff DC has ever published.

Carlin was more consistent than either of them, but his creative highs were never as good as Giordano or Didio's reigns.

[Buried Alien]

Can we both agree that Johns has waaaay more clout than Didio does at Warner Bros, which owns DC? How does Didio benefit from pissing off Johns by mucking with his story?

Geoff Johns = Monitor and Dan Didio = Anti-Monitor. They're sons of the same mother, but their relationship is...complicated.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Everyone is a hero and villain depending upon who is telling the story and what part of their life you're talking about. In Giordano's case, I think he contributed more good to DC than bad, even if some of the bad decisions he made still haunt DC to this day.

With Didio, it's a little more fraught. Irregardless of when you pick, Didio is giving the greenlight to absolutely great stuff I adore, while simultaneously concocting some of the worst stuff DC has ever published.

Carlin was more consistent than either of them, but his creative highs were never as good as Giordano or Didio's reigns.

I'm grateful to Didio for ending the decades-long embargo on a living Barry Allen (and even so much as MENTIONING the Pre-COIE DC Multiverse; remember when even mentioning it was verboten during the 1990s, Bored?), but by that same token, the decisions he's made regarding Wally West and other characters have made it very, very difficult to enjoy that victory.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[BohemiaDrinker]

Can we both agree that Johns has waaaay more clout than Didio does at Warner Bros, which owns DC? How does Didio benefit from pissing off Johns by mucking with his story?

Okay, that is not so simple.

First thing here is that WB and DC are not technically the same company and, while since DCEntertainment was founded, WB does have a little bit more of a hands on approach - and the move to Burbank is a big evidence of that - the comics division is usually left to it's own devices as long as it delivers.

Now, Dan first entered DC exactly to follow orders from WB, way back when. And as long as he does at his bosses are telling him, he's pretty much left to his own devices. And he always performed: under his regime a lot of new IPs were created - some more successful outside of comics than inside - several attempts at synergy were made (all of them pretty much failed, because synergy is not really a think that works with comics) and the guy was slick enough, and business savvy enough, to maneuver DC out of some pretty dire situations more than once (sure, he created some of those, but don't tell anyone. Have I mentioned that it's year of the villain yet again?). And doing that assured that, when WB decided that it would actually milk the comics division, Dan rose trough the ranks and got Levitz old job (someone else with whom he's said to constantly bust heads). Of course this also has to do with his talent for politics - he eliminated, alienated or downright fired any possible competition for his positions. (And you'll have to excuse me here: there's some shit I know for facts that just doesn't go in a public forum).

Johns, OTOH, has a very complicated story: it's actually pointless to list the many positions he's occupied, but let's just say that that he fell on WB's grace than out of it around the time of the GL movie, went full comics again, fell on WB's grace again with his success in television, fell out of grace with movies, in grace again with movies, etc. There are 3 moments where he had some creative control over the DC line. The first was from right before DCE was founded (he was the one who put Gail Simone back in BoP, for instance) to about a year after the NEW52 - because as CCO he had some say in how properties should look/;feel in order to better sell them to other media, the second was his big movie promotion, a period where he was both Didio's boss and employee and vice versa, and finally Rebirth, which was an emergency measure. But by the time ATT&T bought WB, all accounts indicate that he had already fell out of prestige within the comics side - and the thematic undoing of Rebirth is some indication of that - and most people who care about this stuff theorize that the reason he left his corporate position was to secure his "job". An editorial culling came soon after, as well as a line reduction, which sort of corroborate that.

So, yes, Johns has more clout... but it's Hollywood clout, not comics clout. Dan reigns supreme at the comics division, and even if they personally hated each other (which is not the case, AFAIK), and Geoff threw all his weight and all his influence around, he wouldn't make a dent on Dan right now, at all.

The "how does Didio benefit" is a funny one: as I always say, he has a vision and boy will he enforce it. And the top one flaw in Dan's characters seems to be that he is petty: he is known for completing demolishing creative's contributions when and if they leave DC (or stay) in not so good terms with him. (There's a very old interview here at CBR where Waid answered a question of mine exactly on this mold, I can't find right now). And I believe that Rebirth in particular rubbed him the wrong way.

So, in the case that's pertinent to this thread, the delays on DClock: it may be the case that Didio put put way too much extra time between issues so the status quo that it was supposed to generate never came to fruition. What I think is possible is that Geoff got a little late (as he usually does), Dan made the book bi-monthly (and looking good and understanding while doing it) and then started stripping elements of it so Johns would have to rework it and get more late. Superman and Legion go Bendis, Wally is mandated into HiC and hell, at this point, give the Justice Society to Scott because DClock just doesn't matter anyway. (See the Snyder quote that was later edited out at his request). Shazam getting resolicited to oblivion while "the Shazam who laughs" shows up also doesn't look good.

Johns, OTOH, has no reason to fight this: he's barely a comics writer anymore. I'm pretty sure that most of his income is coming trough the streaming shows and producing movies. He gains nothing by picking a fight he can't win.

Also, Morrison and JMS are special cases here: JMS barely writes comics and he's only eventually called out for something. Morrison abandoned the monthly grind because, according to him, "it was just not fun anymore". This was never stated, but it's implied that having to follow New 52 continuity when finishing Batman INC left a sour taste in his mouth (He talked a little bit about this, but made an effort to be classy). So his other Projects were WW:E1 (out of continuity), Multiversity (barely in continuity, free reign) and now Green Lantern where although he has free reign, he doesn't seem to have access to the rest of the DCU.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'm grateful to Didio for ending the decades-long embargo on a living Barry Allen (and even so much as MENTIONING the Pre-COIE DC Multiverse; remember when even mentioning it was verboten during the 1990s, Bored?), but by that same token, the decisions he's made regarding Wally West and other characters have made it very, very difficult to enjoy that victory.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah, he's one of the most wildly inconsistent EiCs during my time as a comics fan. Only Jim Shooter's reign at Marvel comes close to being as divisive and controversial. That was another guy who oversaw some of the best comics Marvel ever produced, while also making some of the dumbest decisions that ended up driving a lot of Marvel's top talent into the loving arms of Dick Giordano at DC. Of course, Carlin (with a lot of help from Levitz) ended up doing the same thing at DC, which saw its top talent leave for Marvel...until they were chased away by Bill Jemas.

If there's one consistent thing in the world of comic books is that nobody is ever happy with whoever is in charge of either Marvel or DC.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't think the idea that didio and current management wouldn't throw a book that sold solid for their own "personal" vision is quiet right. Supersons got gutted for Bendis's direction. Now we will have reboot legion that has no connection to clark inside a superman story. Don't get me started on titans not being allowed to have an aim that leads into ddc.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't think the idea that didio and current management wouldn't throw a book that sold solid for their own "personal" vision is quiet right. Supersons got gutted for Bendis's direction. Now we will have reboot legion that has no connection to clark inside a superman story. Don't get me started on titans not being allowed to have an aim that leads into ddc.

I don't think these are comparable to a book selling as well as Doomsday Clock. Supersons was, at best, a mid-tier title, and has been moved over to the DC kids imprint, where it might attract a larger readership, in addition to the sequel maxi-series that also didn't sell that well. Legion likewise hasn't been a big seller for decades, so I can understand DC's willingness to let Bendis do whatever he wants there, even if I may disagree with that idea.

As for Titans. I'm not sure if the misfires of that title can be laid at the feet of Doomsday Clock either. The current vagueness of the New Teen Titans continuity wasn't the biggest problem there, but rather that the comic wasn't very interesting to most readers. What kind of direction would Doomsday Clock have given to the book that Rebirth didn't already provide?

[Paul Newell]

Who do we blame for ending Dick Grayson's days as Robin, killing off Barry Allen in COIE, eliminating the original DC Multiverse, and bringing the curtain down on the Bronze Age, Bored?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Don't forget breaking poor Brainiac 5's heart, Bured!

[Paul Newell]

Yeah, he's one of the most wildly inconsistent EiCs during my time as a comics fan. Only Jim Shooter's reign at Marvel comes close to being as divisive and controversial. That was another guy who oversaw some of the best comics Marvel ever produced, while also making some of the dumbest decisions that ended up driving a lot of Marvel's top talent into the loving arms of Dick Giordano at DC. Of course, Carlin (with a lot of help from Levitz) ended up doing the same thing at DC, which saw its top talent leave for Marvel...until they were chased away by Bill Jemas.

If there's one consistent thing in the world of comic books is that nobody is ever happy with whoever is in charge of either Marvel or DC.

I really think that's when some of the best stuff comes out, personally.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't think these are comparable to a book selling as well as Doomsday Clock. Supersons was, at best, a mid-tier title, and has been moved over to the DC kids imprint, where it might attract a larger readership, in addition to the sequel maxi-series that also didn't sell that well. Legion likewise hasn't been a big seller for decades, so I can understand DC's willingness to let Bendis do whatever he wants there, even if I may disagree with that idea.

As for Titans. I'm not sure if the misfires of that title can be laid at the feet of Doomsday Clock either. The current vagueness of the New Teen Titans continuity wasn't the biggest problem there, but rather that the comic wasn't very interesting to most readers. What kind of direction would Doomsday Clock have given to the book that Rebirth didn't already provide?

Be that as may that supersons was only mid tier book. But, my point still stands it was still was gutted for the sake of new direction with the superman, legion and jon being a teen.
As for titans, for starters it could have given it a mystery/aim( which was promised in the first issues) and a larger role in main narrative. It wasn't interesting because it was aimless. it was tied behind by editorial edicts and restrictions of shouldn't be done.(titans and adventures of supersons both fell to this) I mean, they couldn't capitalise the grand return of wally west because of this nonsense.wally was barred from flash books. Titans weren't given a narrative pie that will tie into doomsday clock even when wally the epicentre of the rebirth is on the team. Instead, what was done was barry and bruce became incharge of the mystery and that story became the button which was underwhelming to say the least. Mystery was at first being addressed in titans book. It was outright said. Then suddenly it became irrelevant. Then they where disbanded by silverage favourites of current management whom the titans aren't supposed to outshine.

How is having a dc's kids imprint version of supersons connected to the main universe version of supersons? They are not the same version of characters. They didn't move anything. They created a new version that had nothing to with main universe. There is also dc kids imprint version of superman book. Does that mean the management should give the same treatment( like tieing the books with editorial restrictions) to main super titles the way they treated supersons?

As i said, people bring up adventures of supersons and titans being good or selling as great as it should. But, how can it if the authors are no allowed to do anything interesting with the characters by the management.

And i don't understand the logic behind doing the same mistake over and over again expecting different result. Rebooting legion like this has never worked.for that, they cut original the supersons short(which was on a different direction btw) and made the follow up maxi into at best filler where the main cast aren't even allowed their main support cast like their dads, friends on earth.. Etc.Now, removed Clark from his legacy and friends in the future.worse, rewriting a delayed doomsday clock to cause more delays thereby making fools of the readers . i don't believe their is evidence that this will pay off this time after it didn't last time. As i said, there is evidence that the management will gut their books for their "new direction". So, now no supersons, no titans and a weird legion books that's not even supported by superman fan, jon fans or even many legion fans.I am not assuming malice here. It just seems stupid. I just think when didio took over reign he just reverted dc back to its old routine of reboot, relaunch and recycle.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Be that as may that supersons was only mid tier book. But, my point still stands it was still was gutted for the sake of new direction with the superman, legion and jon being a teen.
As for titans, for starters it could have given it a mystery/aim( which was promised in the first issues) and a larger role in main narrative. It wasn't interesting because it was aimless. it was tied behind by editorial edicts and restrictions of shouldn't be done.(titans and adventures of supersons both fell to this) I mean, they couldn't capitalise the grand return of wally west because of this nonsense.wally was barred from flash books. Titans weren't given a narrative pie that will tie into doomsday clock even when wally the epicentre of the rebirth is on the team. Instead, what was done was barry and bruce became incharge of the mystery and that story became the button which was underwhelming to say the least. Mystery was at first being addressed in titans book. It was outright said. Then suddenly it became irrelevant. Then they where disbanded by silverage favourites of current management whom the titans aren't supposed to outshine.

How is having a dc's kids imprint version of supersons connected to the main universe version of supersons? They are not the same version of characters. They didn't move anything. They created a new version that had nothing to with main universe. There is also dc kids imprint version of superman book. Does that mean the management should give the same treatment( like tieing the books with editorial restrictions) to main super titles the way they treated supersons?

I'm not saying Supersons is connected to the main continuity. What I'm saying that isn't really a problem if the idea is to expand the readership beyond the current one. Books less tied to the vast overwhelming continuity tend to be better at bringing in new readers, which is why evergreen books like Dark Knight, Watchmen, Sandman and All Star Superman are such consistent gateway comics for people, because they aren't tied to the larger narrative that require readers to know a lot of stuff to enjoy the story. That's why all these new imprints are relying less on continuity and more on just trying to tell good stories, with the main DCU books becoming less of the focus for DC. If comics are to survive, they've got to expand their audience beyond the continuity obsessives like myself. Supersons has got a helluva great hook, which is why it's ideal property for trying to hook young readers, who will hopefully become longterm fans.

That's not really a sign that DC doesn't value Supersons, just that they think it might work better with a different audience.

[kingaliencracker]

Okay, that is not so simple.

First thing here is that WB and DC are not technically the same company and, while since DCEntertainment was founded, WB does have a little bit more of a hands on approach - and the move to Burbank is a big evidence of that - the comics division is usually left to it's own devices as long as it delivers.

Now, Dan first entered DC exactly to follow orders from WB, way back when. And as long as he does at his bosses are telling him, he's pretty much left to his own devices. And he always performed: under his regime a lot of new IPs were created - some more successful outside of comics than inside - several attempts at synergy were made (all of them pretty much failed, because synergy is not really a think that works with comics) and the guy was slick enough, and business savvy enough, to maneuver DC out of some pretty dire situations more than once (sure, he created some of those, but don't tell anyone. Have I mentioned that it's year of the villain yet again?). And doing that assured that, when WB decided that it would actually milk the comics division, Dan rose trough the ranks and got Levitz old job (someone else with whom he's said to constantly bust heads). Of course this also has to do with his talent for politics - he eliminated, alienated or downright fired any possible competition for his positions. (And you'll have to excuse me here: there's some shit I know for facts that just doesn't go in a public forum).

Johns, OTOH, has a very complicated story: it's actually pointless to list the many positions he's occupied, but let's just say that that he fell on WB's grace than out of it around the time of the GL movie, went full comics again, fell on WB's grace again with his success in television, fell out of grace with movies, in grace again with movies, etc. There are 3 moments where he had some creative control over the DC line. The first was from right before DCE was founded (he was the one who put Gail Simone back in BoP, for instance) to about a year after the NEW52 - because as CCO he had some say in how properties should look/;feel in order to better sell them to other media, the second was his big movie promotion, a period where he was both Didio's boss and employee and vice versa, and finally Rebirth, which was an emergency measure. But by the time ATT&T bought WB, all accounts indicate that he had already fell out of prestige within the comics side - and the thematic undoing of Rebirth is some indication of that - and most people who care about this stuff theorize that the reason he left his corporate position was to secure his "job". An editorial culling came soon after, as well as a line reduction, which sort of corroborate that.

So, yes, Johns has more clout... but it's Hollywood clout, not comics clout. Dan reigns supreme at the comics division, and even if they personally hated each other (which is not the case, AFAIK), and Geoff threw all his weight and all his influence around, he wouldn't make a dent on Dan right now, at all.

The "how does Didio benefit" is a funny one: as I always say, he has a vision and boy will he enforce it. And the top one flaw in Dan's characters seems to be that he is petty: he is known for completing demolishing creative's contributions when and if they leave DC (or stay) in not so good terms with him. (There's a very old interview here at CBR where Waid answered a question of mine exactly on this mold, I can't find right now). And I believe that Rebirth in particular rubbed him the wrong way.

So, in the case that's pertinent to this thread, the delays on DClock: it may be the case that Didio put put way too much extra time between issues so the status quo that it was supposed to generate never came to fruition. What I think is possible is that Geoff got a little late (as he usually does), Dan made the book bi-monthly (and looking good and understanding while doing it) and then started stripping elements of it so Johns would have to rework it and get more late. Superman and Legion go Bendis, Wally is mandated into HiC and hell, at this point, give the Justice Society to Scott because DClock just doesn't matter anyway. (See the Snyder quote that was later edited out at his request). Shazam getting resolicited to oblivion while "the Shazam who laughs" shows up also doesn't look good.

Johns, OTOH, has no reason to fight this: he's barely a comics writer anymore. I'm pretty sure that most of his income is coming trough the streaming shows and producing movies. He gains nothing by picking a fight he can't win.

Also, Morrison and JMS are special cases here: JMS barely writes comics and he's only eventually called out for something. Morrison abandoned the monthly grind because, according to him, "it was just not fun anymore". This was never stated, but it's implied that having to follow New 52 continuity when finishing Batman INC left a sour taste in his mouth (He talked a little bit about this, but made an effort to be classy). So his other Projects were WW:E1 (out of continuity), Multiversity (barely in continuity, free reign) and now Green Lantern where although he has free reign, he doesn't seem to have access to the rest of the DCU.

I REALLY dislike it when posters make a statement to the effect of "I have inside knowledge but I can't really discuss it here". I mean no disrespect to you but it's just how I feel about it. It's a way to make an opinion seem better or more important than someone else's, with no way to validate it.

Mark Waid and Dan Didio most definitely had a falling out. That's well documented and Waid - while not completely burning the bridge - hasn't shied away from his frustrations with DC in the mid 2000's that caused him to leave the company. We also know Didio has clashed with other creators as well, including Jeph Loeb. But Waid has also called out Geoff Johns from time-to-time too.

As others have pointed out, Didio certainly has flaws as an EiC/Publisher. Someone who makes the statement that "Countdown is 52 done right" is someone who clearly has a different idea of what qualifies as a quality comic book story IMO. However, Geoff Johns has stayed with DC for almost three decades now, most of which has been working for (or at times with) Dan Didio. There's no question Johns would be coveted by Marvel so if his and Didio's relationship was such that Didio is blatantly undermining Johns with his stories, then why on Earth would Johns bother sticking with it? If nothing else, he could remove himself completely from the comic book side of things and focus squarely on the adaptations, since I'm sure that's the majority of his income now anyway.

I also have to point this out, because this has been stated by both Johns AND Didio: Rebirth was Didio's idea. That's not to say he developed it or had long term plans for it. But he approached Johns and basically stated "help me" when DCYou was tanking and DC had lost all momentum with NEW 52 (which, btw, Didio has acknowledged had failures itself). Now, do I think Didio was fully on board with all aspects of Rebirth? No, and in fact I think part of him probably REALLY disliked a lot of it. Johns was very reluctant to do Rebirth AND Doomsday Clock, but relented (both for different reasons). Again, this is based on statements made publicly by Johns AND Didio.


At the end of the day, I really think fans are overthinking this and trying to find deeper meaning into something that's blatantly obvious. Johns has had a habit in recent years of being extraordinarily late on his work. He's had sporadic habits of this in the past, but it's gotten worse as his duties at WB have expanded. Given that we've been waiting 5 years for the "Three Jokers" story, and Shazam is now delayed indefinitely (the latter of which is almost entirely cut off from the primary DCU and has no known or rumored reason for editorial interference), it's just much more realistic that Johns is too busy to keep up with the limited work he is doing for DC.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm not saying Supersons is connected to the main continuity. What I'm saying that isn't really a problem if the idea is to expand the readership beyond the current one. Books less tied to the vast overwhelming continuity tend to be better at bringing in new readers, which is why evergreen books like Dark Knight, Watchmen, Sandman and All Star Superman are such consistent gateway comics for people, because they aren't tied to the larger narrative that require readers to know a lot of stuff to enjoy the story. That's why all these new imprints are relying less on continuity and more on just trying to tell good stories, with the main DCU books becoming less of the focus for DC. If comics are to survive, they've got to expand their audience beyond the continuity obsessives like myself. Supersons has got a helluva great hook, which is why it's ideal property for trying to hook young readers, who will hopefully become longterm fans.

That's not really a sign that DC doesn't value Supersons, just that they think it might work better with a different audience.

They value "supersons" as a whole.i never said otherwise. But, it is easy to cut their losses in out of continuity book and wouldn't create a narrative mess.They just have cancel the book and that version of jon and ian will be gone.
But, the superfamily, supersons and kid jon are not seen as of value to "current direction" in continuity. Dare i say, it might be even burden to bendis and current management . So, they got "independent". And a book that was perfectly selling decent without any gimmicks got shut and got relaunched into maxi filler.
In short, in continuity kid "son of superman" - bad
Out of continuity kid "son of superman" - good

[Bored at 3:00AM]

They value "supersons" as a whole.i never said otherwise. But, it is easy to cut their losses in out of continuity book and wouldn't create a narrative mess.They just have cancel the book and that version of jon and ian will be gone.
But, the superfamily, supersons and kid jon are not seen as of value to "current direction" in continuity. Dare i say, it might be even burden to bendis and current management . So, they got "independent". And a book that was perfectly selling decent without any gimmicks got shut and got relaunched into maxi filler.
In short, in continuity kid "son of superman" - bad
Out of continuity kid "son of superman" - good

I think Bendis just wanted to go a different direction with Jon, and since the kid version of him can still be used whenever anyone wants for flashback tales, it's not a giant problem for the other creators. They haven't erased the character or anything.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think Bendis just wanted to go a different direction with Jon, and since the kid version of him can still be used whenever anyone wants for flashback tales, it's not a giant problem for the other creators. They haven't erased the character or anything.

I am not faulting him for that(even though, i disagree) . I am just pointing it out that dc management is perfectly capable of letting a book down for the sake of a brand new direction that they deem attractive or fit their vision.