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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    The other thing to consider is that Gotham City has a population in the millions, and its infrastructure is mostly rotted out and crumbling. Can one man save everyone? Would he force out help when obviously he's stretched too thin to do it all himself. People don't have it good there--lots of crime, lots of poverty. I think Batman needs all the help he can get with that town; the Family should formalize their activities more. For example, a short-lived plot device in the 70's that went nowhere was Bruce's VIP work--his Victims Incorporated Program. Why not put the compassionate Dick Grayson as responsible for following up for these families and giving them the support AND justice they've been denied by the corrupt city government? I could see Babs or Kate running for the City Council, trying to work from within. Jason might be that Plan B guy, or perhaps the black sheep who disdains the others' methods but isn't biddable or stoppable? Damian could do good for the kids in Gotham City; they could see that a kid CAN make a difference. I question if the Bats could take their own roles within The Family Business.
    Well, the "get help" argument doesn't work in a shared universe where Batman's bestie is a Kryptonian super-god. The League could take a weekend and weed out the corrupt businessmen and politicians and collect most of the lunatics and villains, if we were going to take "get help" to its logical conclusion. You'll notice that when Clark arrived in Metropolis (in many versions) the city was corrupt (Glennmorgan, for example).....but all that ended thanks to super-senses and journalistic skills. Granted, the evil politicians got replaced by monsters from outer space, but the elections aren't rigged anymore!

    As for the Bats finding viable civilian work.....hell yes. That ties into the idea some of us float (myself included) about Tim becoming a plain clothes detective; you put the excess Bats into semi-retirement (so they can still suit up when the need arises) but you spin them into the supporting cast for another title. That way they're useful, visible, and they get development when the alternative is not being seen at all.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  2. #47
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Pretty much where I'm at. Bruce, Dick, Babs and a Robin (Damian being my preferred option) are all I need for the core group, with Kate and Bette off doing their own thing. Kate shouldn't be Bruce's cousin anymore either.
    That seems like an odd retcon? I mean, just ignore it if you dont want to use it. They're not that close, and the majority of Kate's stories have nothing to do with Bruce being her cousin anyway.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That seems like an odd retcon? I mean, just ignore it if you dont want to use it. They're not that close, and the majority of Kate's stories have nothing to do with Bruce being her cousin anyway.
    Her being the cousin is the odd retcon.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  4. #49
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The Bat family isn't to big, the problem is that there are too many of them in Gotham. I'd move most of them to different cities or place them on various teams. The hard part is deciding who gets to stay in Gotham with Bruce and Alfred.
    I wouldn't even say that is the problem so much as there are too many to give adequate page space too and writers can't seem to be bothered to define strong roles and places for these characters or play with what other writers do with a certain character.

    Like, the Batfamily in the comics was at it's strongest during the 90's and onward because the family was better utilized and had more clearly-defined roles, and writers played ball more.

    But nowadays stuff like Batman getting married to Catwoman, the 'Tec team, etc...just generally doesn't play into other books that much. The family feels less like a family past Batman and the Robins and only a loosely associated band of bat-people.

    So, personally, if I were to re-vamp the Batfamily I wouldn't necessarily try to cut back but take stock of the entire family and figure out what to do with them, trying to re-build brand and family cohesiveness.

    And if I think a character could benefit from a solo book (looking at you Cass), I would give it to them.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    What if Gotham becomes the largest city in the world?
    It'd become the world's largest garbage dump.

  6. #51
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    Bruce is stretched thin. He definitely needs help in Gotham, I don't know how he can handle being Bruce Wayne (being a playboy and dealing so much with his company) to protecting Gotham City and running around the World with the Justice League. So it does make sense that there are a lot of heroes in Gotham. I'd love for another Gotham Knights group to pop up since I really do like most of the Bat characters. I wouldn't want to get rid of Dick, Steph, Cass, Barbara, or Tim for sure. I think one of Tim or Damian needs to let go of being Robin and get a new name though.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zudomon View Post
    Bruce is stretched thin. He definitely needs help in Gotham, I don't know how he can handle being Bruce Wayne (being a playboy and dealing so much with his company) to protecting Gotham City and running around the World with the Justice League. So it does make sense that there are a lot of heroes in Gotham. I'd love for another Gotham Knights group to pop up since I really do like most of the Bat characters. I wouldn't want to get rid of Dick, Steph, Cass, Barbara, or Tim for sure. I think one of Tim or Damian needs to let go of being Robin and get a new name though.
    That's why I would suggest DickBats for the Justice League so that BruceBats can spend all his time in Gotham. To handle a large Bat-Family in Gotham, they need specific roles. It can't be, "Okay, everybody line up--we're all going on patrol tonight!!"

  8. #53
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    One of the problems with the current Bat Family is that too few of them actually compliment one another. They have created this character eat character environment where the characters actually hurt and diminish one another. Even Batman.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-14-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    One of the problems with the current Bat Family is that too few of them actually compliment one another. They have created this character eat character environment where the characters actually hurt and diminish one another. Even Batman.
    I think part of the problem with this is that character standings and relationships have been degraded so much that the family just doesn't work as well with each other as they used too, or no one is even quite sure what everybody's exact relationship is.

    Writers in general also just don't seem all that interested in building relationships back up or don't have the page space to actually do it in a believable manner (I think this was one of the biggest issues with Tynion's 'Tec run).

  10. #55
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    If for whatever reason I had to and wanted to "revamp" it:

    I'd start with - what are the major roles that the family covers, and which are doubled-up?

    Batman's role as:
    Parent = Robin, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Signal, Orphan *doubles with mentor role
    Son = Alfred
    Mentor = Batgirl, Spoiler *doubles with parent role
    Partner = Catwoman
    Sibling-type = Batwoman
    Friend = Comissioner Gordon, Batwing, Azrael, Batwoman

    Too many overlaps, though some overlapping is ok. 6 kids plus 2 mentees seems a bit extreme though.

    Well, I heard that Black Lightning was getting 2 of Batman's kids. So maybe those 2 will become part of the Black Lightning family instead?
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 03-14-2019 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, the "get help" argument doesn't work in a shared universe where Batman's bestie is a Kryptonian super-god. The League could take a weekend and weed out the corrupt businessmen and politicians and collect most of the lunatics and villains, if we were going to take "get help" to its logical conclusion. You'll notice that when Clark arrived in Metropolis (in many versions) the city was corrupt (Glennmorgan, for example).....but all that ended thanks to super-senses and journalistic skills. Granted, the evil politicians got replaced by monsters from outer space, but the elections aren't rigged anymore!

    As for the Bats finding viable civilian work.....hell yes. That ties into the idea some of us float (myself included) about Tim becoming a plain clothes detective; you put the excess Bats into semi-retirement (so they can still suit up when the need arises) but you spin them into the supporting cast for another title. That way they're useful, visible, and they get development when the alternative is not being seen at all.
    Even simpler. Calls the Flashes. Give them ten minutes. Admire Gotham's new and perfect infrastructure, without a leak, a blackout or any other problem of the sort.

    That's why I think White Knight is such a strong Elseworld tale : it truly accepts that there isn't other heroes than Batman and his crew in its world, and it allow Murphy to truly dive in whatever story he wants to tell. His Batman couldn't have existed with a Superman or a Wonder Woman able to come in any day to calm him down.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    If for whatever reason I had to and wanted to "revamp" it:

    I'd start with - what are the major roles that the family covers, and which are doubled-up?

    Batman's role as:
    Parent = Robin, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Signal, Orphan *doubles with mentor role
    Son = Alfred
    Mentor = Batgirl, Spoiler *doubles with parent role
    Partner = Catwoman
    Sibling-type = Batwoman
    Friend = Comissioner Gordon, Batwing, Azrael, Batwoman

    Too many overlaps, though some overlapping is ok. 6 kids plus 2 mentees seems a bit extreme though.

    Well, I heard that Black Lightning was getting 2 of Batman's kids. So maybe those 2 will become part of the Black Lightning family instead?
    Which two? Is the Black Lightning Family selling enough to support more supporting characters?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think part of the problem with this is that character standings and relationships have been degraded so much that the family just doesn't work as well with each other as they used too, or no one is even quite sure what everybody's exact relationship is.

    Writers in general also just don't seem all that interested in building relationships back up or don't have the page space to actually do it in a believable manner (I think this was one of the biggest issues with Tynion's 'Tec run).
    Thast something they should have done, before the they brought in the new characters (or the ones that were initially erased after flashpoint).

    Tynion made imo also a mistake by changing up the team so early in his run, imo he should have continued with the original line up, instead of "killing" Tim and having Steph go solo, to bring in Azrael and Batwing.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Thast something they should have done, before the they brought in the new characters (or the ones that were initially erased after flashpoint).

    Tynion made imo also a mistake by changing up the team so early in his run, imo he should have continued with the original line up, instead of "killing" Tim and having Steph go solo, to bring in Azrael and Batwing.
    I've been very unimpressed with Tynion.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by oasis1313 View Post
    Which two? Is the Black Lightning Family selling enough to support more supporting characters?
    I think he is mentoring Orphan and Signal in 'The Outsiders'. So I assumed they would more become a part of that family. Never read any Black Lightning books, no idea how well it sells. But the character has a tv series - so I'd think he's probably, at least, fairly popular to have gotten a live action adaption.

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