Thread Drift: Is the MCU Peter Parker just Iron Man's sidekick?

[Frontier]

The Vulture's suit malfunctions because of the toll taken due to his fight with Spider-Man. It's not like it just spontaneously sh*t the bed and Spidey was lucky enough to be there when it happened. The suit failed as a direct result of fighting Spider-Man.

Yeah, Vulture's suit malfunctioned because Spidey dragged him into one of the engines.

It's easy to miss because of how much the final fight with Vulture doesn't really feel much like a "fight."

Incidentally, the malfunction of the Vulture's suit leads to one of the best character moments in the film where Peter - who has every reason to simply let the Vulture perish - goes out of his way to warn him that his suit is going to explode and then rescue him, proving his sense of altruism.

Agreed.

I thought they were subtly incorporating Spider-Man's no-kill rule until Infinity War gave him the idea to shove Ebony Maw out an airlock...

He's still not anybody's Robin or Jimmy Olsen.

He's not accompanying Tony on nightly missions. He's not under Tony's direct purview. He's not training with Tony.

Not directly shown, but he definitely comes off like that kind of interaction with or dynamic with Tony isn't very far off from what their relationship is.

You could even take their interaction from Civil War on as Tony's attempt at "training," or that's what Peter reporting to Happy were supposed to constitute.

He's working independently. Tony is hands off, save for not wanting Peter to get over his head. But, by the end of Homecoming, he understands that Peter is capable of handling himself and invites him to step into the big leagues of The Avengers but Peter turns him down, preferring to remain a solo hero.

Which lasted about five minutes before Infinity War happened.

Also, how is Homecoming unjustly benefiting Tony? He's only in the movie for all of seven minutes. And his part in the film is not just to aggrandize Tony at Peter's expense. It's to show how Tony learns to respect Peter as an equal.

I mean, I think it further pushes Iron Man as being the top dog of the MCU to the point where he has such a critical and prominent role and relationship with Spider-Man and where the latter comes off as not the major and professional hero Iron Man is. I'm really not sure what positive benefits Spider-Man gets out of the relationship unless you enjoy Tom Holland and RDJ together.

I don't think Tony views Peter as an equal. I think he views him as a good kid with a lot of potential who can impress him, but I don't think he views him as an exact equal.

While the Raimi movies found other ways to show Peter's intelligence, both Civil War and Homecoming also portrayed Peter as a smart, scientifically-minded guy.

I thought Civil War did a better job of it than Homecoming, especially since we got to actually see Spider-Man come up with clever plans and creative tricks to fight rather then kind of just flailing about like he did in Homecoming.

Spec/PS4 Spidey, he ain't.

He isn't a sidekick. And they aren't partners. People act as though he spends the entire movie trailing a step behind Tony rather than doing everything on his own, with Tony being largely out of the picture.

On-screen he's not depicted as the Iron Lad to Tony's Iron Man every single minute, but his dynamic with Iron Man and view of Tony is isn't really that far off from a sidekick.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4249681]Peter not completing his doctorate is an aging issue and not a smarts issue. Marvel regret Peter graduating high school and college, getting married and then teaching high school...him completing his doctorate and leaving grad school would finally put him further as an adult and a post-student, since that's pretty much the highest degree you can earn, and after that it's all honorary degrees from colleges you didn't attend.

But in any case, Peter's already done stuff that makes him pretty brilliant. Inventing the web-fluid alone, at the age of 15 alone, would be enough to secure him a place in the pantheon.

I mean Peter could devote his entire lifetime writing papers on just that, and developing it and talking more about its chemical properties and so on...that would be enough as a career to spin around. Have Peter fight crime, pick up books to do important research for his latest theoretical paper he submits to a paper or journal and so on. But that would require people at Marvel to have some idea on how science works...[/QUOTE
You made my point. Marvel does not want Peter to grow up. This applies to the Phd, OMD ( and the end of the marriage). Stark and the suit, Spider-Man never being allowed to be a leader ( see The Avengers), Rami's Spider-Man 3, the relationship involving Silk and countless other examples. It is not that he is incapable of better. The greatest Spider-Man stories are the ones where he has to step up and show character growth ASM 31-33 versus Doc Ock ASM 229-230 versus Juggernaut are classic examples of this. So is 'Spider-Man No More' ASM 50. Did I mention the greatest What If type story of them all Renew Your Vows?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...

Alan Moore pointed out in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow..."this is an imaginary story, aren't they all?" So all stories are "What if" stories.

Spider-Man has been retconned back and forth so many times destroying the integrity of the core continuity so often that it's all fragmented, that everything is functionally indistinguishable from an AU. It's not an accident that film-makers take more inspiration and influence from Ultimate Spider-Man rather than 616 as Jon Watts claimed (as well as Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane).

The MCU "What if Spider-Man was in a shared movie universe?"

Of course as Neil Gaiman said in The Sandman, "the trouble with wanting something is getting what you once wanted". So you get Spider-Man in the MCU and it's not him interacting with Cap, with Banner, with Widow, and Fury (which will change in Far From Home thank goodness) but mostly becoming part of Tony's supporting cast.

[Prof. Warren]

I thought they were subtly incorporating Spider-Man's no-kill rule until Infinity War gave him the idea to shove Ebony Maw out an airlock...

An extreme situation, obviously. And even still, Peter might still draw the line at killing a human being, no matter what the circumstance.

Not directly shown, but he definitely comes off like that kind of interaction with or dynamic with Tony isn't very far off from what their relationship is.

I don't think so. Tony is shown to be very "hands off" with Peter. Happy spends more time with him than Tony does. I can't even imagine Tony working with Peter enough to actual train with him.

You could even take their interaction from Civil War on as Tony's attempt at "training," or that's what Peter reporting to Happy were supposed to constitute.

That doesn't fit the definition of training. Tony doesn't even give Peter a tutorial on the new suit.

Which lasted about five minutes before Infinity War happened.

A very extreme, all hands on deck situation. With the fate of the world directly at hand, it's not really the time to defer from pitching in.

I mean, I think it further pushes Iron Man as being the top dog of the MCU to the point where he has such a critical and prominent role and relationship with Spider-Man and where the latter comes off as not the major and professional hero Iron Man is. I'm really not sure what positive benefits Spider-Man gets out of the relationship unless you enjoy Tom Holland and RDJ together.

Well, many people do enjoy Holland and Downey Jr. together. They have a great on screen chemistry and dynamic with each other that makes sense to exploit.

And in-universe, there's no "pushing" IM as the top dog of the MCU. He already is. He spearheaded the whole thing. This isn't the comics. As far as the movies go, Iron Man is the founding character from which the whole MCU sprang.

And at this point in the MCU, Spider-Man is not the professional hero that Iron Man is. That's part of what's compelling about him. That we're seeing him evolve and mature. Even in the early days of the comics, it was made clear that characters like Iron Man and the other Avengers were the adults and the pros and Spider-Man was just a kid and an amateur, prone to making mistakes.

I don't think Tony views Peter as an equal. I think he views him as a good kid with a lot of potential who can impress him, but I don't think he views him as an exact equal.

I don't think Tony sees anyone as an "exact equal." He is rather arrogant, you know. But by the end of Homecoming, he does comes to respect Peter's abilities and acknowledges his true worth as a hero.

On-screen he's not depicted as the Iron Lad to Tony's Iron Man every single minute, but his dynamic with Iron Man and view of Tony is isn't really that far off from a sidekick.

As they don't actually work together as a team, I'd say that removes the sidekick aspect from their relationship. Tony is more like a distant father figure, occasionally coming in to mop up a mess Peter's made.

[CrimsonEchidna]

You know, reading through all of this, it occurred to me that it is kind of ironic that the much maligned Amazing Spider-Man movies was actually the one of the three that actually showed Peter going through trial and error developing his own gear.



I think my feeling when I saw Homecoming was that it was a good MCU movie, but it really didn't feel like Peter Parker story. Between all the Stark Tech, the AI, and even aping some aspects from Miles' comic it kind of felt too much like an amalgam like quite a few MCU movies do. I think that's why the Insomniac game felt like such a breath of fresh air last year, even though it also borrowed a lot of attributes from different sources; it still felt like a meat and potatoes classic Peter Parker story.

[Frontier]

An extreme situation, obviously. And even still, Peter might still draw the line at killing a human being, no matter what the circumstance.

That's so speciest .

I don't think so. Tony is shown to be very "hands off" with Peter. Happy spends more time with him than Tony does. I can't even imagine Tony working with Peter enough to actual train with him.

At Tony's discretion so he can keep tabs on and control Peter's development.

That doesn't fit the definition of training. Tony doesn't even give Peter a tutorial on the new suit.

True. I guess Tony is a big-believe in on-the-job, but controlled, training that he doesn't need to be personally involved in.

A very extreme, all hands on deck situation. With the fate of the world directly at hand, it's not really the time to defer from pitching in.

Well, he was always going to pitch in, with or without the Starksuit, it's just the plot of the movie basically walked back some of his development from Homecoming.

Well, many people do enjoy Holland and Downey Jr. together. They have a great on screen chemistry and dynamic with each other that makes sense to exploit.

Oh, I agree they have good on-screen chemistry with each other, but I find their dynamic very problematic for Spider-Man.

And in-universe, there's no "pushing" IM as the top dog of the MCU. He already is. He spearheaded the whole thing. This isn't the comics. As far as the movies go, Iron Man is the founding character from which the whole MCU sprang.

I know that much, I just think that clashes with them trying to re-integrate Spider-Man and making them so connected as a result of it.

And at this point in the MCU, Spider-Man is not the professional hero that Iron Man is. That's part of what's compelling about him. That we're seeing him evolve and mature. Even in the early days of the comics, it was made clear that characters like Iron Man and the other Avengers were the adults and the pros and Spider-Man was just a kid and an amateur, prone to making mistakes.

That sounds more like Peter's dynamic with the Ultimates then his dynamic with the adult heroes back in the early days. The distinction more seemed to be how much the public vilified and questioned Spider-Man compared to other heroes, thanks to the Bugle, then the fact that he was a rookie, especially since Peter got his start at around the same time the other heroes did.

Something that, obviously, could not be feasible in the MCU...but I think Ultimate Spider-Man (the comic) handled it better.

As they don't actually work together as a team, I'd say that removes the sidekick aspect from their relationship. Tony is more like a distant father figure, occasionally coming in to mop up a mess Peter's made.

Well, they've basically worked together as a team in the Avengers movies. Homecoming is the equivalent of a Robin solo adventure (ala Tim Drake), and that description of Tony could be pretty apt for Batman in certain contexts.

You know, reading through all of this, it occurred to me that it is kind of ironic that the much maligned Amazing Spider-Man movies was actually the one of the three that actually showed Peter going through trial and error developing his own gear.



I think my feeling when I saw Homecoming was that it was a good MCU movie, but it really didn't feel like Peter Parker story. Between all the Stark Tech, the AI, and even aping some aspects from Miles' comic it kind of felt too much like an amalgam like quite a few MCU movies do.

Self-made hero, right there .

[FeliciaSpidey]

No, you can't judge a character by the beginning of the story. MCU Peter will grow up to be more like 616 Spider-Man, let's give him a little more time.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You know, reading through all of this, it occurred to me that it is kind of ironic that the much maligned Amazing Spider-Man movies was actually the one of the three that actually showed Peter going through trial and error developing his own gear.

The Garfield movie had Peter creating the formula from his Dad's notes and then repurposing that from oscorp tech, which to me feels cheaper than "organic webbing". Yeah in USM Richard Parker was working on the web-fluid formula but left it incomplete which Peter finished on his own, and the costume comes from the fight promoter but those felt soft grounding rather than this. And Peter's Dad created the Venom suit so it's not entirely positive there.

I kind of preferred Raimi's approach with "organic webbing but he does everything else by himself" then the Marc Webb and MCU approach where lip service is given to Peter's scientific skills but he's not allowed to be the full prodigy he was when he started out in 616. So the Garfield movie says yeah he uses web-shooters but the formula and everything wasn't really made by him, but he did the costume and his girlfriend does everything else. The MCU says he creates the web fluid but Stark created the costume and all his other gadgets was given to him on a silver platter. Also he's got Ganke Ned Leeds to help him do detective work and hacking.

In the Raimi movie where Peter developed his costume and worked extensively on a notepad designing and spitballing ideas and so on. That montage was so iconic the Simpsons homaged it and you saw that in the PS4 game too. Peter always defeats the bad guys by himself, and does stuff on his own in those movies.

[Dicer]

Well, they've basically worked together as a team in the Avengers movies. Homecoming is the equivalent of a Robin solo adventure (ala Tim Drake), and that description of Tony could be pretty apt for Batman in certain contexts.

So Peter is a sidekick because he worked together in a movie that's literally all about heroes teaming with each other?
And your Tim Drake comparison continues to fail and need to generalize things to work.
Because let's see Peter was active for months before meeting Tony and after continued to do his own thing in his neighborhood while all of the times he's worked with Tony has literally been during the crisis situations when all the heroes are teaming up, whereas I can't say the same about Tim Drake, because his teaming up with Batman is the norm for their relationship, he was not active before meeting Batman, and doesn't do his own thing most of the time.

This just reinforces it, that apparently yes Spider-Man having any sort or friends of allies is forbidden, and things should never change for a new story, because there's only one story that can be told and should be allowed to be told.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So Peter is a sidekick because he worked together in a movie that's literally all about heroes teaming with each other?

He's a sidekick because "Mr. Stark" is the phrase he keeps repeating all the damn time, and it's annoying to see. He says that more than 30 times across all three MCU movies he's appeared. I counted that in Ctrl+F on sprngfieldspringfield which keeps transcripts of the movie dialogue.

Like in Civil War he tells Falcon and Winter Soldier, "Guys, look, I'd love to keep this up, but I've only got one job here today...and I gotta impress Mr Stark, so, I'm really sorry."

That's the mentality of a sidekick.

This just reinforces it, that apparently yes Spider-Man having any sort or friends of allies is forbidden, and things should never change for a new story, because there's only one story that can be told and should be allowed to be told.

You can have a good idea, even one you like, and still see it executed badly. I liked the idea of Spider-Man in the MCU and interacting with heroes. But I don't like his movies becoming an annex to Iron Man's sub-franchise.

[Dicer]

So is Ant-Man Captain America's sidekick?
Because that's the conclusion I'm coming to based on this logic, because the mentality Peter has is someone he looks up to just asked him for help during an incredibly important and tense situation which by that logic makes Ant-Man Captain America's sidekick.
And even then you're telling he's a sidekick because he refers to Tony in a respectful and formal way.
And again this is just making it clear that Peter can't have any allies or friends or look up to anyone not named Uncle Ben because otherwise he's an Iron Man sub-franchise.
Because yes only one story is allowed and they should never stray or try anything new.

[Prof. Warren]

He's a sidekick because "Mr. Stark" is the phrase he keeps repeating all the damn time, and it's annoying to see.

Being polite makes Peter a sidekick? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact that it annoys you personally is irrelevant.

He says that more than 30 times across all three MCU movies he's appeared. I counted that in Ctrl+F on sprngfieldspringfield which keeps transcripts of the movie dialogue.

If you're actually keeping track of how many times Peter says "Mr. Stark" it says more about you having a personal hang up than about Peter's portrayal.

He could say it a hundred times and it wouldn't mean that he was Tony's sidekick.

Some teens are actually raised to refer to adults by their honorific title, you know.

Like in Civil War he tells Falcon and Winter Soldier, "Guys, look, I'd love to keep this up, but I've only got one job here today...and I gotta impress Mr Stark, so, I'm really sorry."

That's the mentality of a sidekick.

No, it isn't. Any kid who wants to impress an adult in a particular situation isn't automatically that adult's "sidekick."

You can have a good idea, even one you like, and still see it executed badly. I liked the idea of Spider-Man in the MCU and interacting with heroes. But I don't like his movies becoming an annex to Iron Man's sub-franchise.

It's a good thing that isn't what happening, then. Spider-Man is no more an annex to Iron Man than Captain America, or Captain Marvel, or Ant-Man is. Everything is simply inter-connected. As has been pointed out, it would be incredibly stupid of Spider-Man to join the MCU only to keep him isolated just for the sake of appeasing a few cranky fans who don't get the idea of a shared universe.

[Prof. Warren]

In the Raimi movie where Peter developed his costume and worked extensively on a notepad designing and spitballing ideas and so on. That montage was so iconic the Simpsons homaged it and you saw that in the PS4 game too. Peter always defeats the bad guys by himself, and does stuff on his own in those movies.

That's a fun montage, sure. But it's also a case of Raimi using directorial sleight of hand to help the viewers over a huge plausibility leap.

"I'm making a lot of costume sketches, spit balling ideas, and the next time you see me, I'll be magically wearing this costume that I couldn't have, in a million years, actually made in real life, even if someone directly handed me all the outrageously pricey materials that go into making it."

By the way, Peter also defeats bad guys and does stuff on his own in the Garfield and Holland movies.

[Cmbmool]

Yes. Say what you want about the previous Spider-Man films, but at least they remind us of the character individuality and do it yourself works of his webshooters and costume. I mean with some effort he could have made the costume minus the AI suit.

Spider-man NEVER NEEDED an AI Suit. Now every time I would see the MCU Spider-man, I would just see Iron Man JR.

[Cmbmool]

So is Ant-Man Captain America's sidekick?
Because that's the conclusion I'm coming to based on this logic, because the mentality Peter has is someone he looks up to just asked him for help during an incredibly important and tense situation which by that logic makes Ant-Man Captain America's sidekick.
And even then you're telling he's a sidekick because he refers to Tony in a respectful and formal way.
And again this is just making it clear that Peter can't have any allies or friends or look up to anyone not named Uncle Ben because otherwise he's an Iron Man sub-franchise.
Because yes only one story is allowed and they should never stray or try anything new.

Actually when you think it over the First Ant-man film and even the Civil War film had a bit of a Pym vs Stark vibe that we never get in the comics that much outside of Tony dating Janet.