Thread Drift: Is the MCU Peter Parker just Iron Man's sidekick?

[Dicer]

I'd be down for a what if Peter Parker was Spider-Man instead of Iron Boy Jr.?

I'd personally like "What If people acknowledged Spider-Man used gadgets long before Homecoming and didn't pretend that was an outlier where it suddenly became a new thing?"
Looks like I'm not getting that anytime soon.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I'd personally like "What If people acknowledged Spider-Man used gadgets long before Homecoming and didn't pretend that was an outlier where it suddenly became a new thing?"
Looks like I'm not getting that anytime soon.

How about we meet half way.

Yes Spider-Man used tracers, invented stuff to go against Vulture, invented his web fluid and shooters. What he didn't have was a suit that did his thinking for him, In-Suit AI, Google VR display, and other doodads inserted into his suit. "Nothing without your suit" was never ever a part of Spider-Man's story. Peter is always Spider-Man ever since he got bitten.

More important than Spider-Man using gadgets is the fact that Spider-Man made those gadgets. By himself. He did it all by himself. He made his costume himself.

And don't give me that "peasants can't art" BS that Peter is too poor to design a suit by himself and being handed down to him is "realistic". A 40 year old arms-dealer suddenly becoming a do-gooder and shutting down his arms business is far more unbelievable than a kid getting superpowers from a spider-bite and making his own costume and motifs.

There are parts of Spider-Man Homecoming that gets aspects of the character and setting in the teenage era well enough, stuff like downplaying Uncle Ben and "great responsibility" is fair since that was never a particularly big part of Spider-Man for his first 150 issues. Michelle "MJ" Jones being a class clown and eccentric is true of MJ's background in Tom Defalco's flashback issue ASM#259.

But yeah complaining about Peter being Iron Robin, complaining about Tony handing him stuff, and nerfing the first non-sidekick hero into a sidekick to Iron Man and complaining about that, are all legitimate and fair observations, truthful ones and not misreadings of the film by any stretch of the imagination.

[David Walton]

My god people really are intent on whining about this.
I guess we apparently do need to see Uncle Ben get shot a million more times.


So basically what the movie already had.
Since jokes about that in the actual movies can be counted on one hand.
But I guess if you wanna whine you can whine.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have been a smartass. It's not my intention to detract from the joy that Homecoming brings others. I think it's a very well executed film loaded with talent. It just didn't work as a Spider-Man film for me personally, and that's okay. Mileage varies. It's Dan Slott's seventh favorite MCU film, and he has quite a bit of cred when it comes to the web-slinger.

Peter Parker is my favorite character in all of fiction, and I have strong opinions about who he is and why he does what he does. But at the end of the day, it's a story with widely varying interpretations, and certainly not worth stressing over or detracting from the hard work of everyone involved with Homecoming and their incredible accomplishments.

All the Best,

David

[Prof. Warren]

How about we meet half way.

Yes Spider-Man used tracers, invented stuff to go against Vulture, invented his web fluid and shooters. What he didn't have was a suit that did his thinking for him, In-Suit AI, Google VR display, and other doodads inserted into his suit. "Nothing without your suit" was never ever a part of Spider-Man's story. Peter is always Spider-Man ever since he got bitten.

More important than Spider-Man using gadgets is the fact that Spider-Man made those gadgets. By himself. He did it all by himself. He made his costume himself.

And don't give me that "peasants can't art" BS that Peter is too poor to design a suit by himself and being handed down to him is "realistic". A 40 year old arms-dealer suddenly becoming a do-gooder and shutting down his arms business is far more unbelievable than a kid getting superpowers from a spider-bite and making his own costume and motifs.

There are parts of Spider-Man Homecoming that gets aspects of the character and setting in the teenage era well enough, stuff like downplaying Uncle Ben and "great responsibility" is fair since that was never a particularly big part of Spider-Man for his first 150 issues. Michelle "MJ" Jones being a class clown and eccentric is true of MJ's background in Tom Defalco's flashback issue ASM#259.

But yeah complaining about Peter being Iron Robin, complaining about Tony handing him stuff, and nerfing the first non-sidekick hero into a sidekick to Iron Man and complaining about that, are all legitimate and fair observations, truthful ones and not misreadings of the film by any stretch of the imagination.

But he isn't a sidekick to Iron Man. That would be a misreading of the film - certainly a very flawed take on it. Peter is a younger hero that Tony keeps a (half) eye on and imparts help and advice to but Peter is still his own man. That's the whole point of Homecoming. That he isn't Tony's sidekick and he ultimately doesn't need the Avengers, or any outside tech, to be a hero.

As for the plausibility of Peter making himself a costume that accurately resembles the comics, I much prefer the MCU solution. Yes, one can willingly suspend their disbelief in the Raimi films and think, "Well, I know that in real life each one of these suits costs probably upwards of 100K and requires a whole squadron of designers to bring it to life, all of whom have their own areas of expertise to bring to the table, but for the sake of enjoying the movie, I'll just go along with the idea that a kid with limited income and no background in fashion and working with various materials came up with something that looks this damn good."

You could do that, because, obviously, we want to see a Spider-Man on screen that looks like Spider-Man but it's much more easily believable that Peter's homemade suit looked as junky as Holland's initial outfit and the one that Tony gives him is totally pimped out. I can very easily go along with that solution.

As for the gadgets, I like them. Obviously they have roots in JMS's ASM run with Tony's Iron Spider so there is precedent. Also, giving Tom Holland's Spidey an in-suit computer to talk to is a clever way to replicate something from the comics that the movie's haven't thus far been able to do - Spidey's ongoing internal dialogue. Giving him someone to talk to while he's Spidey is a nice way to bring in the kind of internal discussion that would usually go to thought balloons or captions in the comics.

[Frontier]

But he isn't a sidekick to Iron Man. That would be a misreading of the film - certainly a very flawed take on it. Peter is a younger hero that Tony keeps a (half) eye on and imparts help and advice to but Peter is still his own man. That's the whole point of Homecoming. That he isn't Tony's sidekick and he ultimately doesn't need the Avengers, or any outside tech, to be a hero.

I think he's definitely Iron Man's sidekick.

Tony is the source for Peter's costume, iconography as Spider-Man (since he comes up with the classic look design), his gadgets, and a lot of Peter's character development and personality is hinged around Iron Man. It's Tony's words who he hears during the lifting of the weights moment and the whole "nothing without the suit moment" that leads to Peter actually acting like Spider-Man is a result of Tony Stark.

This is on-top of the fact that the first main villain he deals with is the result of Tony's actions.

This is emphasized into Infinity War where Peter, despite not wanting the Iron Spider suit or feeling like he needs to become an Avenger, ends up getting the Iron Spider suit forced on him by Tony in order to save him and have Stark dub him an Avenger. Strange even mistakes Peter for Tony's "ward."

You could do that, because, obviously, we want to see a Spider-Man on screen that looks like Spider-Man but it's much more easily believable that Peter's homemade suit looked as junky as Holland's initial outfit and the one that Tony gives him is totally pimped out. I can very easily go along with that solution.

Somebody like Tony being the source for Peter's costume in high school makes sense from a believability standpoint, but I think Spider-Man's status as a self-made hero who isn't adherent to an adult mentor or Superhero is more important to his character then how believable his costume is.

Heck, if they wanted a more believable means of giving him his main suit, why not just put him in a situation where he has the resources to make the suit instead of having Tony hand it to him? That's what the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon did.

As for the gadgets, I like them. Obviously they have roots in JMS's ASM run with Tony's Iron Spider so there is precedent. Also, giving Tom Holland's Spidey an in-suit computer to talk to is a clever way to replicate something from the comics that the movie's haven't thus far been able to do - Spidey's ongoing internal dialogue. Giving him someone to talk to while he's Spidey is a nice way to bring in the kind of internal discussion that would usually go to thought balloons or captions in the comics.

The gadgets have their root in the comics but I think there's a point where you can get a tad excessive with them, as I feel Homecoming did, especially when the tech isn't even his.

Certainly the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon did not need to have a bunch of teched-out gadgets beyond the basic Spider-Man rollout to make Spidey come off as cool, because on a general basis the character is more about outwitting and out-performing his villains instead of doling out the latest tech upgrades like Iron Man does.

I get why they had the AI on the front of trying to adapt the internal dialogue (setting aside the fact that Peter talking to himself is kind of the point instead of having an AI he can bounce off of), but it's a little too Iron Man.

As for suggestions, I'd add "What if Spider-Man Switched Sides During Captain America: Civil War?"

That was actually something I was hoping would happen in the movie once Peter realized what Cap's team was actually trying to do.

It would have felt much more in-character for Spider-Man and would've been a nice clean cut to the Stark relationship and a nod to the original comic.

[Dicer]

I can't help but feel if Peter really Tony's sidekick Peter wouldn't have been the one doing all the work against Vulture, and wouldn't have been to take him down.
But I guess Spider-Man just shouldn't be allowed to have any allies or friends, since it seems people think if Spider-Man isn't treated like **** by the rest of the superhero community or gets any sort of assistance he apparently isn't his own hero.
So I guess shame on me for liking the fact the films don't have everyone treating him like a damn leper like they do in the comics or not minding the fact a 15-year-old didn't sew together his own suit since that's apparently the most important thing about Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As for the plausibility of Peter making himself a costume that accurately resembles the comics, I much prefer the MCU solution.

This video demonstrates quite well that someone of Peter's limited resources could well have made his costume:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ_1NrBm5e8

Peter Parker is a chemical engineer. He created a synthetic web fluid which is essentially a synthetic fabric, which means he'd be familiar with synthetic fabric design such as spandex and kevlar both of them developed in the laboratory in the 50s and 60s by scientists working for Dupont chemicals. So Peter does have some knowledge about costume design and material.

Yes, one can willingly suspend their disbelief in the Raimi films and think, "Well, I know that in real life each one of these suits costs probably upwards of 100K and requires a whole squadron of designers to bring it to life, all of whom have their own areas of expertise to bring to the table, but for the sake of enjoying the movie, I'll just go along with the idea that a kid with limited income and no background in fashion and working with various materials came up with something that looks this damn good."

You know Bane's Jacket in TDKR cost that much to make and create and the external bits of costs have nothing to do with the in-universe look. Bane's jacket is cheap looking, not branded, and highly worn and overused.

The Raimi suit clearly looks improvised with the raised webbing covering everything and Peter needing to wash it, and it shrinking (a classic bit of Ditko missing in the MCU thanks to the Iron Man suit being all self-regulating). That it took a lot of money on screen doesn't mean anything since film-makers need to make the costume look good in different lighting conditions, match practical and VFX shots and have visual consistency between the two.

Somebody like Tony being the source for Peter's costume in high school makes sense from a believability standpoint, but I think Spider-Man's status as a self-made hero who isn't adherent to an adult mentor or Superhero is more important to his character then how believable his costume is.

What I don't get is the inconsistency of this believability argument. Why is it more believable that Tony Stark built his first costume and arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps then for Peter Parker to put together a costume that historically speaking in universe in comics was never considered this state of the art thing. Tony Stark is a pampered rich fop who had everything handed down to him unlike Peter who had to work hard in school and dumpster dive and repurpose stuff. Him going from basically the Justin Bieber of the arms dealing world to a one man factory is unbelievable. And as that video I linked above shows, it's believable for Peter to make that costume...and any argument that he can't isn't far from people claiming that Shakespeare didn't write his plays because "poor people can't do anything" and it's disgusting

That was actually something I was hoping would happen in the movie once Peter realized what Cap's team was actually trying to do.

It would have felt much more in-character for Spider-Man and would've been a nice clean cut to the Stark relationship and a nod to the original comic.

Yeah. I was hoping that would happen but obviously for branding reasons they wanted RDJ to be with Spider-Man. That's going to be a problem for Tom Holland, a guy who strikes me as lacking leading man chops to start with, but so far he's been configured in the MCU entirely as a sidekick and supporting player in Tony Stark's story, and that's going to cripple him when they make him a lead. As it is Happy is going to be in Far From Home, why I don't know. Why does a an Iron Man supporting character (historically the weakest in supporting and rogues in Marvel) doing taking screentime away from Spider-Man's awesome supporting cast.

[Frontier]

I can't help but feel if Peter really Tony's sidekick Peter wouldn't have been the one doing all the work against Vulture, and wouldn't have been to take him down.

I mean, I can see a Tim Drake Robin movie where Tim ends up proving himself against the villain on his own because Batman is too busy with another case.

But I guess Spider-Man just shouldn't be allowed to have any allies or friends, since it seems people think if Spider-Man isn't treated like **** by the rest of the superhero community or gets any sort of assistance he apparently isn't his own hero.
So I guess shame on me for liking the fact the films don't have everyone treating him like a damn leper like they do in the comics or not minding the fact a 15-year-old didn't sew together his own suit since that's apparently the most important thing about Spider-Man.

I'm not against Spider-Man having allies or friends in the Superhero community, just not involved with him to the extent of Iron Man in the MCU.

I think Peter being a self-made hero in all aspects of his career is an important aspect of Spider-Man, if not the most important aspect. Especially since it's generally a consistent staple for the character.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I can't help but feel if Peter really Tony's sidekick Peter wouldn't have been the one doing all the work against Vulture, and wouldn't have been to take him down.

Vulture gets taken down because his suit malfunctions and goes out of control and Peter tries to warn him. Spider-Man doesn't actually defeat the Vulture in a fight at the end. Nothing like the original comic where Peter builds his own gadget to defeat him.

But I guess Spider-Man just shouldn't be allowed to have any allies or friends, since it seems people think if Spider-Man isn't treated like **** by the rest of the superhero community or gets any sort of assistance he apparently isn't his own hero.

That actually is a legitimate criticism and observation. Spider-Man was originally the first non-sidekick teenage hero with entirely independent resources. He had no Alfred, no Ma or Pa Kent, no Jim Gordon, no Batcave, no Fortress of Solitude and he was nobody's Robin and Jimmy Olsen to no one.

Homecoming throws all of that away and you don't get to do that and not raise eyebrows and questions, especially when its being done in the benefit of Iron Man, a character who historically has had about 4 comics stories that are anywhere as good as the top 100 or top 50 Spider-Man stories, and whose movies largely ignore the comics and make it the Robert Downey Jr. comeback tour. And it doesn't even adapt Spider-Man and Iron Man's relationship accurately since Spider-Man turned against Iron Man in Civil War when he found out about the whole superhero gulag.

So I guess shame on me for liking the fact the films don't have everyone treating him like a damn leper like they do in the comics or not minding the fact a 15-year-old didn't sew together his own suit since that's apparently the most important thing about Spider-Man.

Spider-Man building his own costume, his own web-shooters, and so on is pretty damn important in conveying that this guy is entirely on his own.

Sam Raimi's film made the webbing organic but kept everything else in place and emphasized the Spider-Sense and other powers but he still showed Peter's smarts. Like in the first Goblin fight, Spider-Man removes a piece from the glider forcing Goblin to flee and outfoxing him. In the second movie he cottons on that Dr. Octopus' experiments are dangerous. Spider-Man 3 has him instantly realize that sound affects the symbiote and in a snap of a second he shuts it down.

Spider-Man does have good relations with some superheroes, especially Captain America who Spider-Man said reminded him of Uncle Ben.

[Dicer]

All I'm getting here is that no Spider-Man shouldn't be allowed to have any sort of help or have any kind of allies and it's wrong to ever have a version of Spider-Man to even slightly deter from that and that Iron Man shouldn't be allowed any sort of connection with him whatsoever.
That's all I'm getting here don't try anything different and keep rehashing until everyone is sick of him, and don't ever think of portraying a different kind of story other than what people have already seen.

[Frontier]

All I'm getting here is that no Spider-Man shouldn't be allowed to have any sort of help or have any kind of allies and it's wrong to ever have a version of Spider-Man to even slightly deter from that and that Iron Man shouldn't be allowed any sort of connection with him whatsoever.
That's all I'm getting here don't try anything different and keep rehashing until everyone is sick of him, and don't ever think of portraying a different kind of story other than what people have already seen.

I mean, that hasn't been my point at all, it's just those elements shouldn't get to a point where they undercut him as a character.

I don't want rehashes but if I think something isn't true or beneficial to the character, I probably won't like it. But your mileage may vary.

Frankly, MCU Spider-Man on his own is a pretty interesting "What If" on the Spider-Man concept.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4249610]Vulture gets taken down because his suit malfunctions and goes out of control and Peter tries to warn him. Spider-Man doesn't actually defeat the Vulture in a fight at the end. Nothing like the original comic where Peter builds his own gadget to defeat him.



That actually is a legitimate criticism and observation. Spider-Man was originally the first non-sidekick teenage hero with entirely independent resources. He had no Alfred, no Ma or Pa Kent, no Jim Gordon, no Batcave, no Fortress of Solitude and he was nobody's Robin and Jimmy Olsen to no one.

Homecoming throws all of that away and you don't get to do that and not raise eyebrows and questions, especially when its being done in the benefit of Iron Man, a character who historically has had about 4 comics stories that are anywhere as good as the top 100 or top 50 Spider-Man stories, and whose movies largely ignore the comics and make it the Robert Downey Jr. comeback tour. And it doesn't even adapt Spider-Man and Iron Man's relationship accurately since Spider-Man turned against Iron Man in Civil War when he found out about the whole superhero gulag.



Spider-Man building his own costume, his own web-shooters, and so on is pretty damn important in conveying that this guy is entirely on his own.

Sam Raimi's film made the webbing organic but kept everything else in place and emphasized the Spider-Sense and other powers but he still showed Peter's smarts. Like in the first Goblin fight, Spider-Man removes a piece from the glider forcing Goblin to flee and outfoxing him. In the second movie he cottons on that Dr. Octopus' experiments are dangerous. Spider-Man 3 has him instantly realize that sound affects the symbiote and in a snap of a second he shuts it down.

Spider-Man does have good relations with some superheroes, especially Captain America who Spider-Man said reminded him of Uncle Ben.[/QUOTE
That is eactly right. The biggest weakness of Homecoming was making Peter the Rick Jones of Iron Man. Peter's intelligence has been something that has been overlooked.for many years. Obviously Stark and the costume is one example, but the whole bogus Phd and Ock is another. Why did Marvel not have a storyline where Pete gets a Phd based on his own accomplishments? No one claims he is Banner, Stark, Pym or Richards but he is in the top 10% of intelligence of Marvel heroes I wish it would be shown more often.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That is eactly right. The biggest weakness of Homecoming was making Peter the Rick Jones of Iron Man. Peter's intelligence has been something that has been overlooked.for many years. Obviously Stark and the costume is one example, but the whole bogus Phd and Ock is another. Why did Marvel not have a storyline where Pete gets a Phd based on his own accomplishments? No one claims he is Banner, Stark, Pym or Richards but he is in the top 10% of intelligence of Marvel heroes I wish it would be shown more often.

Peter not completing his doctorate is an aging issue and not a smarts issue. Marvel regret Peter graduating high school and college, getting married and then teaching high school...him completing his doctorate and leaving grad school would finally put him further as an adult and a post-student, since that's pretty much the highest degree you can earn, and after that it's all honorary degrees from colleges you didn't attend.

But in any case, Peter's already done stuff that makes him pretty brilliant. Inventing the web-fluid alone, at the age of 15 alone, would be enough to secure him a place in the pantheon.

I mean Peter could devote his entire lifetime writing papers on just that, and developing it and talking more about its chemical properties and so on...that would be enough as a career to spin around. Have Peter fight crime, pick up books to do important research for his latest theoretical paper he submits to a paper or journal and so on. But that would require people at Marvel to have some idea on how science works...

[Lee]

I mean Peter could devote his entire lifetime writing papers on just that, and developing it and talking more about its chemical properties and so on...that would be enough as a career to spin around. Have Peter fight crime, pick up books to do important research for his latest theoretical paper he submits to a paper or journal and so on. But that would require people at Marvel to have some idea on how science works...

That's not a job that lends itself well to making Spider-Man stories happen.

[Prof. Warren]

Vulture gets taken down because his suit malfunctions and goes out of control and Peter tries to warn him. Spider-Man doesn't actually defeat the Vulture in a fight at the end. Nothing like the original comic where Peter builds his own gadget to defeat him.

The Vulture's suit malfunctions because of the toll taken due to his fight with Spider-Man. It's not like it just spontaneously sh*t the bed and Spidey was lucky enough to be there when it happened. The suit failed as a direct result of fighting Spider-Man.

Incidentally, the malfunction of the Vulture's suit leads to one of the best character moments in the film where Peter - who has every reason to simply let the Vulture perish - goes out of his way to warn him that his suit is going to explode and then rescue him, proving his sense of altruism.

That actually is a legitimate criticism and observation. Spider-Man was originally the first non-sidekick teenage hero with entirely independent resources. He had no Alfred, no Ma or Pa Kent, no Jim Gordon, no Batcave, no Fortress of Solitude and he was nobody's Robin and Jimmy Olsen to no one.

He's still not anybody's Robin or Jimmy Olsen.

He's not accompanying Tony on nightly missions. He's not under Tony's direct purview. He's not training with Tony.

He's working independently. Tony is hands off, save for not wanting Peter to get over his head. But, by the end of Homecoming, he understands that Peter is capable of handling himself and invites him to step into the big leagues of The Avengers but Peter turns him down, preferring to remain a solo hero.

Homecoming throws all of that away and you don't get to do that and not raise eyebrows and questions, especially when its being done in the benefit of Iron Man, a character who historically has had about 4 comics stories that are anywhere as good as the top 100 or top 50 Spider-Man stories, and whose movies largely ignore the comics and make it the Robert Downey Jr. comeback tour. And it doesn't even adapt Spider-Man and Iron Man's relationship accurately since Spider-Man turned against Iron Man in Civil War when he found out about the whole superhero gulag.

Why the hell would the movies have to accurately represent the fifty some odd year history of Tony and Peter's relationship in the comics. The MCU is its own thing, with its own continuity.

And why does the fact that Iron Man doesn't have the same measure of success in print have anything to do with the movies?

Also, how is Homecoming unjustly benefiting Tony? He's only in the movie for all of seven minutes. And his part in the film is not just to aggrandize Tony at Peter's expense. It's to show how Tony learns to respect Peter as an equal.

Spider-Man building his own costume, his own web-shooters, and so on is pretty damn important in conveying that this guy is entirely on his own.

Peter still made his own costume and his own web-shooters. The costume was just busted, as it would understandably be, given Peter's means. And in Civil War, Tony himself is impressed with Peter's ingenuity with his web-shooters.

Sam Raimi's film made the webbing organic but kept everything else in place and emphasized the Spider-Sense and other powers but he still showed Peter's smarts. Like in the first Goblin fight, Spider-Man removes a piece from the glider forcing Goblin to flee and outfoxing him. In the second movie he cottons on that Dr. Octopus' experiments are dangerous. Spider-Man 3 has him instantly realize that sound affects the symbiote and in a snap of a second he shuts it down.

You must have forgotten how much fans lost their minds at the time at the introduction of organic webbing and how it was such an egregious betrayal of the character.

While the Raimi movies found other ways to show Peter's intelligence, both Civil War and Homecoming also portrayed Peter as a smart, scientifically-minded guy.

The biggest weakness of Homecoming was making Peter the Rick Jones of Iron Man.

He isn't a sidekick. And they aren't partners. People act as though he spends the entire movie trailing a step behind Tony rather than doing everything on his own, with Tony being largely out of the picture.