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  1. #46
    Spectacular Member SilverSpider's Avatar
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    When I saw the movie in theaters I also noticed that Spidey is somewhat a sidekick or acts like a sidekick.

    I think people find it weird that Peter tries to impress Tony too much, which is not what we are used to. Spidey usually just dashes in to fight the villain. If he gets beaten he restrategizes.

    In this timeline Tony helps him with his suit, which turns him in to the goto person to ask for advice. 16 year old Peter had no hero to ask for advice. By the time he started encountering other heroes he already developed his fighting style and gadgets.

    The movie was great it would have benefited from a slightly less focus on Tony, but other than that it was cool. (that said Tony was still cool, just overused)

    What I'm saying is that there were some aspects of Spidey's growth as a solitary hero that were sacrificed.

    However I really liked the final scene where he refuses the fancy suit to find his own way. That's the Spidey I know and love.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSpider View Post
    The movie was great it would have benefited from a slightly less focus on Tony, but other than that it was cool. (that said Tony was still cool, just overused)
    Tony's only in this two hour plus movie for about seven minutes total. Not "overused."

  3. #48
    Spectacular Member SilverSpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Tony's only in this two hour plus movie for about seven minutes total. Not "overused."
    Maybe I didn't express that right. He is overused in the sense that this is a Spidey solo movie, not a team up. He has such a huge presence that Peter is always focused on what would Mister Stark say when he ends up planning his science expedition fighting the Vulture on the boat. Tony saves him, cause he couldn't hold the boat, he flirts with aunt May does the press conference at the end. That's a lot for a solo movie, at any rate that's just my opinion. I may not express myself completely accurately as I'm not a native english speaker. I'm hoping this was more clear "overused" doesn't just mean raw minutes for me.
    Creativity is awesome.

    It's a cruel world, that doesn't care for you. Which is why remember to always smile.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverSpider View Post
    Maybe I didn't express that right. He is overused in the sense that this is a Spidey solo movie, not a team up. He has such a huge presence that Peter is always focused on what would Mister Stark say when he ends up planning his science expedition fighting the Vulture on the boat. Tony saves him, cause he couldn't hold the boat, he flirts with aunt May does the press conference at the end. That's a lot for a solo movie, at any rate that's just my opinion. I may not express myself completely accurately as I'm not a native english speaker. I'm hoping this was more clear "overused" doesn't just mean raw minutes for me.
    Understood!

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Tony's only in this two hour plus movie for about seven minutes total. Not "overused."
    As Orson Welles said, "In theatre, you know, the old star actors never liked to come on until the end of the first act. Mister Wu is a classic example—I've played it once myself. All the other actors boil around the stage for about an hour shrieking, 'What will happen when Mr. Wu arrives?,' 'What is he like, this Mr. Wu?,' and so on. Finally a great gong is beaten and slowly, over a Chinese bridge, comes Mr. Wu himself in full mandarin robes. Peach Blossom, or whatever her name is, falls on her face and a lot of coolies yell, 'Mister Wu!!!' The curtain comes down, the audience goes wild, and everybody says, 'Isn't that guy playing Mr. Wu a great actor!' That's a star part for you! "

    Basically Spider-Man spends three whole movies doing most of the time going, "What will happen when Mr. Stark arrives?", "Will Mr. Stark like me?", "What Would Mr. Stark Do?" and so on. So even Tony Stark has only a few scenes in the movie, that doesn't diminish the fact that he's the most important character in the movie, and that Spider-Man thinks of himself in relation to Stark and as such has no independent agency and life outside that. That makes him a sidekick. And again why does Happy Hogan need to be in a Spider-Man movie, that guy takes screentime away from Spider-Man supporting characters (whose boots Happy isn't fit to shine).

    And from a story perspective, why is Spider-Man so uncritical and accepting of Tony "creator of Ultron" when he's a fairly controversial guy in the world of the movies as we saw at the start of Civil War? That's never explained properly. When Adrian Toomes brings up Tony's past as a weapons manufacturer, Peter doesn't say anything in response and lets it slide. Just one line, "Tony Stark made mistakes and tries to make up for it...I know what's that like." Just put that there, and that's all I need. I needed MCU Peter to acknowledge that MCU Tony is a deeply flawed man, who keeps doing harm even when he tries to do good...and because of that he relates to him. Otherwise, Spider-Man comes across as a blind fool (for accepting what Tony said about Cap that he had gone crazy during Civil War) and fawning fan without any real agency...all to a character who for most of his history wasn't fit to shine Peter's shoes. And don't get me started on the stupidity of Spider-Man fighting the Vulture in that ugly home-made suit in the climax as proof that he's something without Tony's suit. That entire concept and subplot, down to the undeserved hijacking of the machinery lifting scene, is nonsense. Spider-Man HAS SUPERPOWERS. HE is something without the suit. It's important for Tony Stark to prove he's something without the suit (since that's what Cap rubbed in his face in Whedon's Avengers) but it's not important for Spider-Man at all. That entire theme also runs counter to Peter's entire story. He's about using his powers responsibly.

    As for Scott Lang being Cap's sidekick...you know in the comics, Scott Lang for the longest time was sidekick to...Tony Stark. This was during Michelinie's run, for the obvious fact that Michelinie created Scott Lang and wanted to feature him as much as he could. Scott Lang is also a legacy character and so on. So for me, Scott Lang deferring to Cap doesn't feel that all that far from the character's history in the comics. He was never conceived as an independent hero. He never made the Ant Man suit and tech and so on...so that to me feels correct. And even then, Scottie still got the big scene when he went Giant Man and proved himself to be the toughest of Team Cap's crew. Whereas it's inappropriate for Spider-Man. In the movies, Scottie doesn't develop the Ant-Man tech, the Pym Particles and so on. That's true to the comics. Whereas Spider-Man did create his own costume, his own web-shooters, and whatever limited gadgets he used and he was an independent non-sidekick major hero...senior to Iron Man, and indeed in Avengers #4 when Tony came to him, X-Men and FF for help, Spider-Man who was busy fighting people told him more or less to get lost.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Basically Spider-Man spends three whole movies doing most of the time going, "What will happen when Mr. Stark arrives?", "Will Mr. Stark like me?", "What Would Mr. Stark Do?" and so on.
    But he doesn't spend three whole movies doing that "most of the time."

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So even Tony Stark has only a few scenes in the movie, that doesn't diminish the fact that he's the most important character in the movie, and that Spider-Man thinks of himself in relation to Stark and as such has no independent agency and life outside that.
    False. Absolutely and entirely false. Tony is not the most important character in the movie and Peter operates independently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That makes him a sidekick.
    Not a sidekick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And again why does Happy Hogan need to be in a Spider-Man movie, that guy takes screentime away from Spider-Man supporting characters (whose boots Happy isn't fit to shine).
    Because, as with Stark and Peter, there's an appealing and funny on-screen dynamic between Happy and Peter that would be foolish not to exploit.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 03-15-2019 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post




    What I don't get is the inconsistency of this believability argument. Why is it more believable that Tony Stark built his first costume and arc reactor in a cave with a box of scraps then for Peter Parker to put together a costume that historically speaking in universe in comics was never considered this state of the art thing. Tony Stark is a pampered rich fop who had everything handed down to him unlike Peter who had to work hard in school and dumpster dive and repurpose stuff. Him going from basically the Justin Bieber of the arms dealing world to a one man factory is unbelievable. And as that video I linked above shows, it's believable for Peter to make that costume...and any argument that he can't isn't far from people claiming that Shakespeare didn't write his plays because "poor people can't do anything" and it's disgusting
    Tony didn't build his original suit all by himself and if you look at it, it's actually very unimpressive compared to what he later made with more time and resources.



    Yeah. I was hoping that would happen but obviously for branding reasons they wanted RDJ to be with Spider-Man. That's going to be a problem for Tom Holland, a guy who strikes me as lacking leading man chops to start with, but so far he's been configured in the MCU entirely as a sidekick and supporting player in Tony Stark's story, and that's going to cripple him when they make him a lead. As it is Happy is going to be in Far From Home, why I don't know. Why does a an Iron Man supporting character (historically the weakest in supporting and rogues in Marvel) doing taking screentime away from Spider-Man's awesome supporting cast.
    Happy's role in Far From Home appears to be nothing more than dating May. There is nothing to suggest he'll be taking time away from other characters.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Tony didn't build his original suit all by himself and if you look at it, it's actually very unimpressive compared to what he later made with more time and resources.
    Exactly. Tony's first armor is as busted and cheesy on its own terms as Peter's first homemade Spidey suit.

    He's basically a walking tin can.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    How so? I can see what Iron Man gets out of the relationship, but I'm not really sure the positive benefits for Peter.
    Uncle Ben is Peter's primary male role model. Inserting Tony into that shared spotlight makes Peter weigh their ethics and forces himself to self-create, rather than hero worship.

  10. #55
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Basically Spider-Man spends three whole movies doing most of the time going, "What will happen when Mr. Stark arrives?", "Will Mr. Stark like me?", "What Would Mr. Stark Do?" and so on.
    So far, Spider-man has been in three movies. In the first movie, Stark went and found HIM because he was impressed by the guy. And yes, Spidey was a little bit starstruck, but he wasn't sucking up to "Mr. Stark" anymore than he was to Captain America.

    The second movie, had a Spider-man who had been called up to the big leagues and then forgotten about. He was trying to prove himself to Ironman to show that he deserved to be back with the Avengers, and living up to his heroes standards, and in the end decided by himself that he was better off doing his own thing.

    The the third movie, he was disobeying Stark as often as he listened to him, if not more. He was just being respectful about it.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    So far, Spider-man has been in three movies. In the first movie, Stark went and found HIM because he was impressed by the guy. And yes, Spidey was a little bit starstruck, but he wasn't sucking up to "Mr. Stark" anymore than he was to Captain America.
    He literally says in the airport battle to Winter Soldier and Falcon: "Guys, look, I'd love to keep this up, but I've only got one job here today...and I gotta impress Mr Stark, so, I'm really sorry." "Impressing Mr. Stark" is what his main motivation is in CIVIL WAR and for most of HOMECOMING for that matter. His last words in Infinity War are telling Mr. Stark that he's sorry. His self-esteem is reduced so low that he's apologizing for his death to Mr. Stark. In real world, that mentality was there in Prussian soldiers during World War I, kadaver gehorsam (https://krautblog-ulrich.blogspot.co...rgehorsam.html). Even the corpse will obey.

    Look, I don't get why people are denying that MCU Peter's role so far is fundamentally as a supporting player for Tony to further his character arc. That's literally what we see so far.

  12. #57
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    If MCU Peter was really Tony’s obident little soldier he never would’ve left Earth to begin with.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Look, I don't get why people are denying that MCU Peter's role so far is fundamentally as a supporting player for Tony to further his character arc. That's literally what we see so far.
    Because that's not what we see.
    What's being shown is two characters who have interconnecting arcs, it only becomes Peter being a supporting character if that's what you want to see rather than the reality.
    Last edited by Dicer; 03-15-2019 at 10:56 AM.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    If MCU Peter was really Tony’s obident little soldier he never would’ve left Earth to begin with.
    What I'm describing is mentality. A desire to impress and gain your idol's approval and validation can and often does co-exist with overriding immediate orders, since what subordinates want is not only validation of current activity but progressively higher validation. There's a reason why cognitive dissonance is a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dicer View Post
    What's being shown is two characters who have interconnecting arcs, it only becomes Peter being a supporting character if that's what you want to see rather than the reality.
    Peter's entire character arc is "Become an Avenger", which basically means getting Tony Stark's blessing. Homecoming's end pays lip service to the idea of Peter deciding he should be in the Friendly Neighborhood without elaborating why he chose that, but Infinity War upends and deletes that where Peter's again aspiring Avenger and gets chuffed up when Tony Stark "knights" him.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 03-15-2019 at 11:01 AM.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Is Spider-Man Iron Man's side kick? Short answer, no.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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