Thread Drift: Is the MCU Peter Parker just Iron Man's sidekick?

[Frontier]

We’ve seen that 5 times already.

I honestly don't think the novelty of the Starksuit warrants using it over the standard Spider-Man suit.

As long as MCU Peter doesn’t depend on tech to be Spider-man (which we just established he doesn’t) I don’t see a problem with him being a bit more tech savvy. Once he becomes more familiar with it, take it a step further and let him modify or outright create stuff on his own. We already know this version of Peter is capable of it.

I don't see him depending less on tech so long as they keep Peter in these Stark costumes and emphasizing how, compared to other versions of Spider-Man, he's so teched-out with all these cool gadgets and doodads.

The end of Homecoming proves he doesn't need them but then he suits up back in the Starksuit and gets stuck in an Iron Spider costume in his next film.

The jury is still out on exactly where the Far From Home suit rests, but I'm betting it's basically still the Starksuit.

Peter is Ned's sidekick.

Well, Peter wouldn't have beaten Shocker without Ganke.

That was, what? His third time getting bailed out of a jam by someone in his own movie? I hope he doesn't make a habit of it as much as Robbie Daymond's Peter does.

And people have a problem with "Mr. Stark" now? Jesus, how dare Peter have some manners! He should just go with "Yo, Tony!".

Admittedly I think "Yo, Tony" is something Spider-Man would probably say.

Also, apparently, it's worse to be associated with IM in any capacity than to need to watch freaking YouTube videos to know how batteries work.

Can't both be problematic in their own ways? I think they share an issue of diminishing Peter in some regards.

Tony doesn't fire him. He simply takes his tech back. Peter is still free to operate as Spider-Man, if he chooses. Which, eventually, he does.

I get the sense Tony was probably expecting him to stop entirely once he took the suit away.

Again, he wants to show Tony that he's ready for the big time. He has all this power and he wants to use it for the greater good. But eventually he realizes that he can serve the greater good just by helping the people directly around him. He doesn't have to save the world every time out, he just has to protect the neighborhood. That feels exactly like Spider-Man to me.

It's too bad that progression doesn't seem to be continuing much beyond Peter's excuse for sticking with Tony in Infinity War.

Far From Home has him basically leaving his neighborhood.

But it isn't. The fact that Tony gifted him the suit doesn't mean that it's Tony inside. It's still Peter, making his own decisions.

If the suit was emblazoned with Stark Tech logos - or, worse, was an actual Iron Spider armor decked out in Tony's colors - sure, it might be a tad distracting. But it isn't.

What makes Peter Spider-Man isn't his skills as a fashion designer, or his access to state of the art tech. It's his humanity and his fallible nature.

Wearing a suit designed by Tony doesn't change that.

I think wearing a suit designed by Tony effects that to the point where those traits become more emphasized the second he stops wearing the Starksuit.

The suit doesn't have a Stark logo but with all the doodads, Karen, and some of the features it definitely feels a little more Stark then Spider-Man.

False. Absolutely and entirely false. Tony is not the most important character in the movie and Peter operates independently.

I'd honestly say Tony's presence and weight makes him the 3rd most important character after Peter and Toomes.

(Aunt May is probably pretty low on the list of important characters in Homecoming).

Because, as with Stark and Peter, there's an appealing and funny on-screen dynamic between Happy and Peter that would be foolish not to exploit.

I'd really rather just see more Spidey supporting characters. We haven't even gotten Jonah yet.

And I say this as someone who enjoys Jon Favreau as Happy.

[Prof. Warren]

I honestly don't think the novelty of the Starksuit warrants using it over the standard Spider-Man suit.

The suit doesn't have a Stark logo but with all the doodads, Karen, and some of the features it definitely feels a little more Stark then Spider-Man.

I'd really rather just see more Spidey supporting characters. We haven't even gotten Jonah yet.

So many of the complaints about Homecoming are of the "Why isn't this just like every other Spider-Man movie? Why isn't this just the same thing that I've already seen before?" variety.

Admittedly I think "Yo, Tony" is something Spider-Man would probably say.

I'm gonna say no on that. I don't think Peter would be that disrespectful and I don't think Spidey would be that cheesy.

I get the sense Tony was probably expecting him to stop entirely once he took the suit away.

He might have. But it's the fact that Peter didn't just throw in the towel that causes Tony to have a new regard for him.

It's too bad that progression doesn't seem to be continuing much beyond Peter's excuse for sticking with Tony in Infinity War.

Far From Home has him basically leaving his neighborhood.

He's on a freaking field trip. It's not like he's moving overseas for good.

Again, the complaints on this movie are mostly from fans who seem utterly perplexed at the idea that after two other cinematic Spidey franchises, both of which are very fresh in audience's minds, and both of which that followed all the classic beats that it's time to shake things up, to do things a bit differently, and show things that the previous films didn't or weren't able to.

[Prof. Warren]

What I'm describing is mentality. A desire to impress and gain your idol's approval and validation can and often does co-exist with overriding immediate orders, since what subordinates want is not only validation of current activity but progressively higher validation. There's a reason why cognitive dissonance is a thing.

Ironic that you would bring up cognitive dissonance.

Peter's entire character arc is "Become an Avenger", which basically means getting Tony Stark's blessing. Homecoming's end pays lip service to the idea of Peter deciding he should be in the Friendly Neighborhood without elaborating why he chose that, but Infinity War upends and deletes that where Peter's again aspiring Avenger and gets chuffed up when Tony Stark "knights" him.

That isn't Peter entire character arc. It's about how to use his power responsibly.

Peter didn't set out to be an Avenger. He was already being a hero in his neighborhood. He wasn't vying for the Avengers, or Tony's, attention when he was doing this.

Tony sought him out. Tony recruited him to join his fight.

Suddenly Peter was operating on a much bigger stage. Then, suddenly, that was over and he was back to Queens.

But being on that bigger stage made him feel that he had more to offer, that his powers could be put to more use than webbing up purse snatchers.

He's not looking for Tony's blessing, he's simply looking to do more. But by the end of Homecoming, he realizes that he doesn't have to be on a bigger stage to do good and make a difference, that being a "friendly neighborhood Spider-Man" is enough for him after all.

This isn't "lip service," it's the whole point of the movie.

Infinity War doesn't delete or negate this. Peter is simply drawn up in a conflict that demands involvement. You can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood left. He's not acting as an "aspiring Avenger," he's acting like a hero who is fighting for the survival of everyone he knows.

[phantom1592]

I'm gonna say no on that. I don't think Peter would be that disrespectful and I don't think Spidey would be that cheesy.

Ummm.. yeah he would. On both counts. Spidey is notorious for being disrespectful when he's in the comics and usually making up wacky nicknames for enemies and allies alike. He may not have yelled 'Yo Tony'... but I could easily picture a Shellhead or Helmet head tossed into conversation.

heck, wearing a mask and being disrespectful and a 'poor role model' was one of the earliest excuses that Jameson had for turning the bugle on 'the menace'... And then he'd get his mouth webbed shut.

And cheesy?? YEah, Peter in his costume is loaded with cheesy quips. It's his thing...

Again, the complaints on this movie are mostly from fans who seem utterly perplexed at the idea that after two other cinematic Spidey franchises, both of which are very fresh in audience's minds, and both of which that followed all the classic beats that it's time to shake things up, to do things a bit differently, and show things that the previous films didn't or weren't able to.

No... I think everyone gets that. It's just that if you take the tried and true Spider-man that we've known in comics for sixty years and 5 movies and shake it up and do it too differently... then it's not the same character anymore. It's someone else's VERSION of the characer and that's not what they want. They want to see MARVEL'S Spider-man the hero of millions interacting with the MCU characters. You can take Raimi's Spider-man and Garfield's Spider-man and any of the 5+ Cartoon Spider-man and they all have the core of the comic Spider-Man. They are adapted from the same source.

MCU Spider-man? Not so much. They changed a lot more then they kept similar and it feels like a totally different character. They could have changed the costume and name and made him a brand new creation and it would have played just as well.

[Frontier]

So many of the complaints about Homecoming are of the "Why isn't this just like every other Spider-Man movie? Why isn't this just the same thing that I've already seen before?" variety.

Conversely I don't think something being "novel" or "different" automatically makes it good.

I'm gonna say no on that. I don't think Peter would be that disrespectful and I don't think Spidey would be that cheesy.

Spidey would totally be that cheesy. It's part of his charm .

He's on a freaking field trip. It's not like he's moving overseas for good.

Yeah, but it means we still haven't really seen much of a Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man in the movies.

Even in Homecoming it didn't feel like he was in New York as much. Maybe if we get four more Holland films with him in New York, then he'll feel like a "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man."

Again, the complaints on this movie are mostly from fans who seem utterly perplexed at the idea that after two other cinematic Spidey franchises, both of which are very fresh in audience's minds, and both of which that followed all the classic beats that it's time to shake things up, to do things a bit differently, and show things that the previous films didn't or weren't able to.

I wasn't expecting a rehash of what we saw in past movies, but I also wasn't hoping for creative decisions that just seem antithetical to who Spider-Man is as a character and work against rather then for him.

I also was totally open to showing and doing things that the previous films weren't able too, but so far I haven't seen as much of that as I was hoping, or handled as well as I would have liked. And some of that is tied to the Iron Man stuff.

Infinity War doesn't delete or negate this. Peter is simply drawn up in a conflict that demands involvement. You can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood left. He's not acting as an "aspiring Avenger," he's acting like a hero who is fighting for the survival of everyone he knows.

Aside from the line where he brings that up, most of his scenes with Tony make him come off like an "aspiring Avenger," especially when he gets "knighted."

[Dicer]

The simple fact people want to say Peter deciding to not ignore an alien invasion is detracting from his character development from homecoming is ridiculous, and frankly just makes it hard to take the statements you're saying seriously.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The simple fact people want to say Peter deciding to not ignore an alien invasion is detracting from his character development from homecoming is ridiculous, and frankly just makes it hard to take the statements you're saying seriously.

Peter does ignore Alien Invasions. He wasn't around when Galactus was making waves. The main reason he was part of the gang that went against Thanos in The Infinity Gauntlet series is because it was implied that Mary Jane got snapped.

...Peter going off-planet, and meeting aliens, and then fighting Thanos and punching him, creates a big problem for Jon Watts (a dude who wanted to jettison the Spider-Sense until Feige had to facepalm his way out of that) since how do you make him small potatoes again? That also goes to another big problem with Homecoming...the goddamn retcons and reshoots inserted at the start. Peter's Vlog (which honestly took me aback, I mean do they not want to sell the secret identity thing), them basically shoehorning and telling us that the Civil War fight went differently from how we saw it.

In Infinity War, they only sent Peter off-planet because they wanted to do the Spider-Man dying in Iron Man's arms scene. But there was nothing inherent about doing that. You could have kept Peter on the ground, helping people during the opening attack on Ebony Maw and so on. That would go back to the greatest moment in Ultimatum, where when Ult. Magneto attacks the world, all the heroes go to fight him, but Spidey stays back and helps people on the ground like a first responder. Like have Peter be the one to tell Bruce where the Avengers new compound is...that would allow Mark Ruffalo to interact with Holland, and seeing Bruce and Spider-Man together. Then you could have Peter with Cap and crew and interact with them. You could have done a couple of things else: Have Spider-Man go to Wakanda, or keep him in New York, and have him show up in the final scene, where he saves Fury and Maria Hill from an accident by webbing them out, and then being snapped there.

There was no need to shoot Spider-Man in space. That was something the film-makers chose to serve Iron Man's story specifically.

[Prof. Warren]

Ummm.. yeah he would. On both counts. Spidey is notorious for being disrespectful when he's in the comics and usually making up wacky nicknames for enemies and allies alike. He may not have yelled 'Yo Tony'... but I could easily picture a Shellhead or Helmet head tossed into conversation.

heck, wearing a mask and being disrespectful and a 'poor role model' was one of the earliest excuses that Jameson had for turning the bugle on 'the menace'... And then he'd get his mouth webbed shut.

And cheesy?? YEah, Peter in his costume is loaded with cheesy quips. It's his thing...

Yes, but he's usually a bit more creatively cheesy. "Yo, Tony!" is pretty lame. And as for being disrespectful, I noted that he wouldn't be disrespectful as Peter. As Spidey, yes he's frequently taking the wind out of blowhards. As Peter, especially a younger Peter, that isn't his style.

No... I think everyone gets that. It's just that if you take the tried and true Spider-man that we've known in comics for sixty years and 5 movies and shake it up and do it too differently... then it's not the same character anymore. It's someone else's VERSION of the characer and that's not what they want. They want to see MARVEL'S Spider-man the hero of millions interacting with the MCU characters. You can take Raimi's Spider-man and Garfield's Spider-man and any of the 5+ Cartoon Spider-man and they all have the core of the comic Spider-Man. They are adapted from the same source.

If you want to see a Spider-Man movie that feels chapter and verse from the comics - it already exists. And anyone who loves it owns it and the sequels and they can watch them all any time they want. Re-treading that same ground would be a huge mistake creatively and commercially, as Sony found out when they did the Garfield reboot. When Holland came in, it was time to take things in a new direction and not just do the same old, same old.

Spidey in the MCU still feels very much like Spidey to this old fan, one who's been reading since the early to mid '70s. It just isn't going down that same old checklist, spoon feeding fans all the familiar bits for the umpteenth time. If Spidey is going to continue to thrive and hold the attention of movie goers he can't feel like a nostalgia act. That would be a real danger if the second reboot of the franchise within a five year period and the third incarnation of the franchise with a fifteen year period followed too closely to what's already gone before.

Also, don't speak for what "they" want. Just speak for yourself. The audience is never unclear about what they want. They vote with their dollars. And given the popular reception to Homecoming and its commercial success, it's pretty clear that the filmmakers hit the mark and the direction they choose found favor with more than enough viewers. Some comic fans like to believe that there's a great hidden mass of other people share their outrage about this nerdy nitpick or that but the reality is, there isn't.

MCU Spider-man? Not so much. They changed a lot more then they kept similar and it feels like a totally different character. They could have changed the costume and name and made him a brand new creation and it would have played just as well.

No, it wouldn't. Homecoming is all about Peter Parker.

[Prof. Warren]

Peter does ignore Alien Invasions. He wasn't around when Galactus was making waves. The main reason he was part of the gang that went against Thanos in The Infinity Gauntlet series is because it was implied that Mary Jane got snapped.

Peter doesn't ignore something that is happening right in front of him. In Infinity War he sees something going down and investigates.

And while in the comics, you can have him sit this event out or that for the sake of publishing logistics, if there's something going down in the movie universe that involves the fate of all life on the planet, he's going to get mixed up in it.

...Peter going off-planet, and meeting aliens, and then fighting Thanos and punching him, creates a big problem for Jon Watts (a dude who wanted to jettison the Spider-Sense until Feige had to facepalm his way out of that) since how do you make him small potatoes again? That also goes to another big problem with Homecoming...the goddamn retcons and reshoots inserted at the start. Peter's Vlog (which honestly took me aback, I mean do they not want to sell the secret identity thing), them basically shoehorning and telling us that the Civil War fight went differently from how we saw it.

First of all, don't you think Jon Watts has been intimately involved in knowing what's going on with what the Russo's are doing and that Feige and Watts have coordinated their plans for Spidey with what's going on in Infinity War and Endgame? On what planet do you think that Watts comes in on Far From Home and is blindsided by the events of Endgame? On no planet and in no reality does that happen. So Endgame hasn't created any problems for Watts, big or otherwise. If anything, I'm sure it's created some opportunities to explore.

Secondly, how can Spidey go back to fighting street level criminals after punching Thanos? Gee, going by the fact that Spidey has gone back and forth from major, cosmic level threats back to pantsing the likes of Paste Pot Pete ALL THE TIME it should be - pardon the phrase - a snap.

Spider-Man has encountered all manner of adversary in the comics, has traveled to space, to other dimensions, and back but yet has no problem going back to his street level adventures. At the conclusion of the first Spider-Verse, Spidey wonders to the effect of "Boy, after everything that's happened, how am I ever going to get back to normal?" and then he stops a couple of muggers and returns a stolen purse to a woman and that's that.

As for the discrepancies between the Civil War fight and what we see in Homecoming - who cares? That's about as important as a recap in one comic slightly altering what we see in an earlier comic. The gist of it is the same.

In Infinity War, they only sent Peter off-planet because they wanted to do the Spider-Man dying in Iron Man's arms scene. But there was nothing inherent about doing that. You could have kept Peter on the ground, helping people during the opening attack on Ebony Maw and so on. That would go back to the greatest moment in Ultimatum, where when Ult. Magneto attacks the world, all the heroes go to fight him, but Spidey stays back and helps people on the ground like a first responder. Like have Peter be the one to tell Bruce where the Avengers new compound is...that would allow Mark Ruffalo to interact with Holland, and seeing Bruce and Spider-Man together. Then you could have Peter with Cap and crew and interact with them. You could have done a couple of things else: Have Spider-Man go to Wakanda, or keep him in New York, and have him show up in the final scene, where he saves Fury and Maria Hill from an accident by webbing them out, and then being snapped there.

You clearly have a major hang-up about Peter interacting with Tony. Most other people don't. They actually like seeing them together and find their relationship interesting, endearing and emotional. Pairing Peter up primarily with another hero in Infinity War would be a distraction and an unnecessary detour. We already have an established bond between Peter and Tony. With everything else going on in Infinity War, carving space in the story for Peter to get up to speed with, say, Cap or Bruce would have been squandering valuable screen time.

There was no need to shoot Spider-Man in space. That was something the film-makers chose to serve Iron Man's story specifically.

No, it's serving Peter's story. This is an experience that will be game-changing for him specifically.

[Prof. Warren]

Yeah, but it means we still haven't really seen much of a Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man in the movies.

Even in Homecoming it didn't feel like he was in New York as much. Maybe if we get four more Holland films with him in New York, then he'll feel like a "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man."

FFS, how much of the same freaking thing do people need to see?

We see a lot of Peter around his local stomping grounds in Homecoming. We see more than enough to know he's invested in the neighborhood and its people. The point has been made.

And after five previous movies where the character never left NYC, it's time to see Spidey in a few other places. Do we need a whole trilogy with Holland swinging past the same locales we've seen the character swing past in five other movies, the same concrete canyons, before he can take an out of town trip?

No, I don't think most people are that in need of repetition that they need that before they can adjust to seeing him in Washington DC or elsewhere without crying out "But wait, why isn't he in New York?!? Shouldn't he be in New York?"

I wasn't expecting a rehash of what we saw in past movies, but I also wasn't hoping for creative decisions that just seem antithetical to who Spider-Man is as a character and work against rather then for him.

There's nothing in Homecoming that is antithetical to who Spider-Man is. Some fans just don't understand that the MCU has its own continuity and that things are naturally going to play out there in a way that is different than in the comics. That doesn't change Peter's essential character.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

First of all, don't you think Jon Watts has been intimately involved in knowing what's going on with what the Russo's are doing and that Feige and Watts have coordinated their plans for Spidey with what's going on in Infinity War and Endgame?

From what I've read about how MCU works, I don't think so. When Peyton Reed worked on Ant-Man, he wrote Scottie Lang as a low stakes hero and caper. And he was taken aback when he saw Civil War and the arrival of Giant Man. That wasn't co-ordinated at all between the Russos and him. For the sequel, of Ant-Man and the Wasp, Peyton Reed again told a story in tune with that he did in the first film, which is why as many pointed out there was a huge jarring tonal shift from watching an uplifting movie suddenly have this out-of-left field post-credits that basically undid the whole thing. Remember that Spider-man's appearance in Civil War was a late addition, the Russos set up Spider-Man very quickly and hastily, deciding on Marisa Tomei as Aunt May, the apartment where she and Peter live, and okaying Tom Holland's casting with Sony (which Feige was reluctant about initially before being overruled).

So Jon Watts didn't really have much of a say when he came on board. Jon Watts didn't even want Iron Man in Homecoming. He wanted Nick Fury based on the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, but Sony and Marvel wanted Iron Man for brand politics. That probably accounts for why Homecoming feels so uninspired visually.

What you think would have been a better creative choice in Infinity War sounds absolutely terrible and is the kind of suggestion that would get any writer or director shown the door posthaste. "Hey, how about if we just keep Spider-Man on Earth the whole time and maybe cut back to him occasionally while the main action is elsewhere? Sound good?" No, it sounds absolutely ridiculous and an utter waste.

From a brand perspective, which is what you are describing...yes. But not from a story perspective.

They did it because they wanted this major character intimately involved in the actual freaking story, not playing a side role.

He's still playing a side character in the movie. Dr. Strange calls him Tony's ward...which feels cheap. Having him be his own little corner and scene stealing guy who pops in and out would have been more respectful and made Spider-Man come off as cool and his own hero.

No, it's serving Peter's story. This is an experience that will be game-changing for him specifically.

What are you talking about? Peter's not actually dead. So he didn't actually change.

And just on a practical, real world level, how fu*king dumb would everyone at Marvel Studios and Sony be to have an enormous culmination of everything in the cinematic Marvel universe but insist that Spider-Man sit it out? Honestly, how utterly stupid of a move would that be?

You say that as if this was planned all along. Again all this is iterative and made as it goes along. And what you are saying isn't 'practical" its about brand politics. Iron Man is the mascot of the MCU, Spider-Man is the overall mascot of the MU, so obviously you need to link them together regardless of the best interests of those characters. On a story level, Spider-Man staying back on street level, having one-on-one interactions with every Avenger or every major figure which he hasn't really gotten so far, would have made more sense...And let's not forget that Disney and Sony had issues with Far From Home's trailer spoiling the fact that Peter survives. From a marketing perspective overall, they should have maybe had Peter survive the snap...because what else could Sony do, not promote their movie?

The fact is the seams all show in this. It doesn't entirely cohere.

[SpiderClops]

People actually took my "Yo, Tony!" suggestion seriously.

And people are saying Peter should've stayed on earth and ignored the alien invasion in Infinity War.

We sure this is not a joke thread?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And people are saying Peter should've stayed on earth and ignored the alien invasion in Infinity War.

Firstly staying on the ground and helping survivors and others after Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian's rampage isn't ignoring the alien invasion. It's simply focusing on the aftermath of destruction rather than going into space and joining the fight. Peter did something like that during Ultimatum, where he didn't join everyone fighting Magneto, he stayed back and helped people drowning in Manhattan in that flood. Spider-Man at heart is a first responder and maybe people are too young to remember 9/11 but people who lived in those years saw them as heroes. Spider-Man would still be in the movie only he'd be the one of the few who gets to interact with all the major figures from Phases 1 and 2. Instead he's Iron Man's caddy.

Secondly, Spider-Man never played all that big a role in the original Infinity Gauntlet series. He wasn't snapped and the reason he joined the fight against Thanos was that Mary Jane got snapped and he wanted to do all he could to bring her back. And then he died at Thanos' hands, or rather that girl clone that Thanos made, as did many others before everything got undone at the end.

[SpiderClops]

Firstly staying on the ground and helping survivors and others after Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian's rampage isn't ignoring the alien invasion. It's simply focusing on the aftermath of destruction rather than going into space and joining the fight. Peter did something like that during Ultimatum, where he didn't join everyone fighting Magneto, he stayed back and helped people drowning in Manhattan in that flood. Spider-Man at heart is a first responder and maybe people are too young to remember 9/11 but people who lived in those years saw them as heroes. Spider-Man would still be in the movie only he'd be the one of the few who gets to interact with all the major figures from Phases 1 and 2. Instead he's Iron Man's caddy.

Secondly, Spider-Man never played all that big a role in the original Infinity Gauntlet series. He wasn't snapped and the reason he joined the fight against Thanos was that Mary Jane got snapped and he wanted to do all he could to bring her back. And then he died at Thanos' hands, or rather that girl clone that Thanos made, as did many others before everything got undone at the end.

So you wanted for him to play a less important role than he did? Seeing that the earth parts were the less interesting and overall less important parts where the heroes didn't actually get to do much compared to the space heroes. All this just to not have him in the vicinity of Iron Man.

Un-freaking-believable.

And he already interacted with many phase-1 heroes in Civil War. He actually got to interact with more heroes like Strange and GotG instead.

[Prof. Warren]

From what I've read about how MCU works, I don't think so. When Peyton Reed worked on Ant-Man, he wrote Scottie Lang as a low stakes hero and caper. And he was taken aback when he saw Civil War and the arrival of Giant Man. That wasn't co-ordinated at all between the Russos and him. For the sequel, of Ant-Man and the Wasp, Peyton Reed again told a story in tune with that he did in the first film, which is why as many pointed out there was a huge jarring tonal shift from watching an uplifting movie suddenly have this out-of-left field post-credits that basically undid the whole thing. Remember that Spider-man's appearance in Civil War was a late addition, the Russos set up Spider-Man very quickly and hastily, deciding on Marisa Tomei as Aunt May, the apartment where she and Peter live, and okaying Tom Holland's casting with Sony (which Feige was reluctant about initially before being overruled).

Just as with the comics, which have a variety of moving parts and larger plans that have to be adjusted for, so too goes the MCU.

All the time, writers plan for things in the comics that have to be re-written or adjusted to accommodate events in other books that affect theirs.

It's no different in the movies. And it's why no other studio has been able to do the shared universe successfully. It's hard and involves a lot of planning and re-adjusting.

So Jon Watts didn't really have much of a say when he came on board. Jon Watts didn't even want Iron Man in Homecoming. He wanted Nick Fury based on the Ultimate Spider-Man comics, but Sony and Marvel wanted Iron Man for brand politics. That probably accounts for why Homecoming feels so uninspired visually.

Again, plans change. Comic writers come on to books with a certain set of ideas only to be told that certain characters are unavailable at the moment or that the editors or publishers want them to use alternate characters instead or that one storyline or another will have to be tabled due to other plans in the works elsewhere. This is the kind of normal creative adjusting that writers - and filmmakers in the MCU - have to accommodate for.

I'm sure at the end of the day, Watts was perfectly happy to actually have Iron Man in Homecoming. And he eventually got to have Fury in Far From Home so it all works out.

You say "brand politics" like it's some slur. You know that these movies are about intellectual properties, right?

From a brand perspective, which is what you are describing...yes. But not from a story perspective.

From a story perspective, it would have been idiotic for Peter not to jump on that ship. It would make him look cowardly to bail out. And also, having this street level hero finding himself in a cosmic melee is a far more interesting route to take than "No, let's keep him on Earth."

He's still playing a side character in the movie. Dr. Strange calls him Tony's ward...which feels cheap. Having him be his own little corner and scene stealing guy who pops in and out would have been more respectful and made Spider-Man come off as cool and his own hero.

Strange calling Peter Tony's ward is just a case of Strange being snarky towards Tony. And Spidey came off plenty cool in IW.

What are you talking about? Peter's not actually dead. So he didn't actually change.

I think going into space, fighting a Mad Titan, and dissolving into dust is an experience that would stick with and change most people going forward.

You say that as if this was planned all along. Again all this is iterative and made as it goes along. And what you are saying isn't 'practical" its about brand politics. Iron Man is the mascot of the MCU, Spider-Man is the overall mascot of the MU, so obviously you need to link them together regardless of the best interests of those characters. On a story level, Spider-Man staying back on street level, having one-on-one interactions with every Avenger or every major figure which he hasn't really gotten so far, would have made more sense...And let's not forget that Disney and Sony had issues with Far From Home's trailer spoiling the fact that Peter survives. From a marketing perspective overall, they should have maybe had Peter survive the snap...because what else could Sony do, not promote their movie?

Again, limited story space in Infinity War. A lot going on on multiple fronts, interweaving many characters and plot threads.

Actively looking to push Peter away from a character that he already has a relationship with in the midst of an already busy storyline just for the sake of...what, exactly?...would be a dumb move on the part of any screenwriters. Writing a movie like IW/Endgame involves keeping a lot of balls in the air. Interrupting the flow of an already in motion storyline just to put Peter in, say, Wakanda would be incredibly clumsy. That would be a blatantly shoehorned move as opposed to simply having him follow Tony into something that is unfolding right in front of him. In order to have Peter do anything else but stick with Tony, you'd have to insert an entire new subplot that would get Peter aligned with these other characters, whether it be Bruce or Steve or T'Challa. That's not smart storytelling.

The fact is the seams all show in this. It doesn't entirely cohere.

But it does. My answer to the problems expressed here towards Homecoming/IW can be summed up thusly:

We sure this is not a joke thread?