Was Hydra Steve a clone? Is the real Steve a clone? Can someone explain it?

[The Cool Thatguy]

No. The end of SE, the one we all read, was known before HydraCap uttered his first "Hail Hydra." Guaranteed.

If you're Marvel, you don't even put that train on the tracks without knowing where you're going to be on the other side of it.

I suspect you're one of those who criticized SE and the HydraCap saga the whole way through, for a year or more, perceiving it as a mind control story and when it wasn't that at all (which, from the start, Marvel told us it wasn't), the complaint then becomes "Well, uh, they must've changed the story mid-way through!" to cover for your own misreading of the story.

If it was, then it was pretty poorly plotted.

But again, that wouldn't be surprising. Just as Pymtron, lecturing the team for another Civil War, for example.

My favorite plothole?

Cubey, as a gift to Red Skull, did what no other cosmic cube could and altered Steve Roger's past, and only his, while somehow keeping him in the main timeline. She did that as a favor to Red Skull...yet crafted a narrative that cast Red Skull as the villain and ultimately resulted in him being killed.

[capandkirby]

couldn't be that wrong. Iron Man, Henry Pym, Reed Richards, the entire Squadron Supreme, and Spider-man have all taken turns erasing memories/altering reality. do you feel the same way about mood-altering drugs?

Didn't approve when they did it either. I follow the Star Trek philosophy on the matter. If you go into someone's mind without their consent to change or erase anything, you are mind-raping them, point-blank, period. It is unethical. If you change someone's entire history without informing of what those changes are beforehand, you are in breech of disclosure and also culpable for murder, since the essence of who we are is contained within the mind. It is unethical. There is nothing anyone can do or say to change my stance on this matter.

cosmic trumps organic, imo. and you really shouldn't bring up physics in a world where Hank Pym is the scientist supreme.

Did I not mention "when they're not busy making up comicbook science". Indicating that sometimes they'll use actual science, sometimes they embellish.

it's still not what happened to the villains in Pleasant Hill.

Didn't say it was. When I said Kobik had already done it (re: change someone's history using the Pleasant Hill prisoners as an example) I distinctly followed that example with a "without their knowledge". Please actually read what I say before attempting to argue with me.

I don't think that the Red Skull had much to do with Steve's childhood. Kobik had creative control over that part. Skull's story was about the greatness of Hydra. but the actual events of Steve's childhood didn't help the Skull's overall plan. the two big influences in his life were Elisa and Daniel Whitehall. both steered him away from being what the Skull needed. at no point, did he have Stevil's loyalty.

Kobik. Red Skull. The entire point was that the rewritten childhood was not actually Steve's real childhood. It was invented. Made up. Given to an adult Steve retroactively to assist in changing him.

so it's ok when it's the villains being brutalized. Pleasant Hill was self defense.

Nope, you are making a false equivalence. See my above thoughts on mind-rape.

in this reality, he was a loyal patriot, the prodigal son, and Steve's protector. even in what you call the original reality, Helmut had saved the world (existence even) more than once. you call him a career criminal. he was a college student when he became the Phoenix. he was solely out to get revenge on the person who (from his perspective) murdered his father. you make him sound like a bank robber.

LOL. You need to read more comics. Zemo has committed tons of criminal acts over the years. Hey, remember that time, during Brubaker's Cap vol. 6, where he was brainwashing people using the television to start mass rioting in the streets? Uh-huh.

and deal with them he did, as Stevil. sounds like a fair trade/buyer beware.

If you go into someone's mind and change their entire history, without informing them you plan to do this beforehand, that is not 'getting consent'. Consent is only obtained when the entire set of conditions are presented beforehand. There's actually a entire section of law surrounding "disclosure".

yet here we are having a conversation. weird.

What, exactly, are your goals here?

[Michael Watkins]

Didn't approve when they did it either. I follow the Star Trek philosophy on the matter. If you go into someone's mind without their consent to change or erase anything, you are mind-raping them, point-blank, period. It is unethical. If you change someone's entire history without informing of what those changes are beforehand, you are in breech of disclosure and also culpable for murder, since the essence of who we are is contained within the mind.

that's why I asked you about mind-altering drugs. who you are is a culmination of experiences/environment and genetics. if you get into an accident and have amnesia, you are no less a person than you were before the amnesia. there is no relevant distinction between a life created by nature and one created by a cosmic cube.

Did I not mention "when they're not busy making up comicbook science". Indicating that sometimes they'll use actual science, sometimes they embellish.

more often than not, they embellish and/or fabricate.

Didn't say it was.

a lot of what you write is unclear

Kobik. Red Skull. The entire point was that the rewritten childhood was not actually Steve's real childhood. It was invented. Made up. Given to an adult Steve retroactively to assist in changing him.

or it was a history that was restored. and the Red Skull didn't realize it. maybe some other cosmic entity changed things along the way for the benefit of humankind. heck, maybe was the concordance engine introduced in Fraction's Defenders run.

Nope, you are making a false equivalence. See my above thoughts on mind-rape.

I saw them. I find them unconvincing and patronizing to actual victims of rape.

LOL. You need to read more comics. Zemo has committed tons of criminal acts over the years. Hey, remember that time, during Brubaker's Cap vol. 6, where he was brainwashing people using the television to start mass rioting in the streets? Uh-huh.

show me some recent references to those stories. I subscribe to the theory that Zemo has died and been reborn enough times that those stray stories don't count. he altered some of his own history in the Born Better series.

If you go into someone's mind and change their entire history, without informing them you plan to do this beforehand, that is not 'getting consent'. Consent is only obtained when the entire set of conditions are presented beforehand. There's actually a entire section of law surrounding "disclosure".

when you can change reality, consent is a luxury.

What, exactly, are your goals here?

I earn a freckle whenever someone who said that they were done with me continues to reply.

[capandkirby]

that's why I asked you about mind-altering drugs. who you are is a culmination of experiences/environment and genetics. if you get into an accident and have amnesia, you are no less a person than you were before the amnesia. there is no relevant distinction between a life created by nature and one created by a cosmic cube.

If you get amnesia, you are actually not the person you were before. And likely the amnesia was the result of an accident, not something done to you intentionally with malicious intent.

BTW: the nature vs. nurture has recently gone more to the side of nurture, despite years of the common thought on that being reversed, might want to catch up on current theory.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nother-paradox

Excerpt:

Nature just provides us with a range of possible behaviors and reactions, while both nurture and thinking (don't forget about thinking) allow us to choose where within that range we would prefer to reside.

more often than not, they embellish and/or fabricate.

Yet they have embraced Quantum Physics to explain alternative realities.

a lot of what you write is unclear

Subjective. I think I'm being perfectly clear.

or it was a history that was restored. and the Red Skull didn't realize it. maybe some other cosmic entity changed things along the way for the benefit of humankind. heck, maybe was the concordance engine introduced in Fraction's Defenders run.

Nope, Marvel, themselves, made it perfectly clear that reality was changed by Red Skull/Kobik and then restored. If you don't want it accept it, then that's your problem, no one else's.

I saw them. I find them unconvincing and patronizing to actual victims of rape.

They are not. Entering the mind without someone's consent is no less horrible than entering their body. Especially as the mind is the last refuge we have. And the mind is the epicenter for who we are as a person.

show me some recent references to those stories. I subscribe to the theory that Zemo has died and been reborn enough times that those stray stories don't count. he altered some of his own history in the Born Better series.

Enjoy your theory. I've been reading comics too long to agree with you. Zemo is a serial criminal and that is that. End of story.

when you can change reality, consent is a luxury.

With great power comes great responsibility.

I earn a freckle whenever someone who said that they were done with me continues to reply.

How nice for you.

[Michael Watkins]

If you get amnesia, you are actually not the person you were before. And likely the amnesia was the result of an accident, not something done to you intentionally with malicious intent.

BTW: the nature vs. nurture has recently gone more to the side of nurture, despite years of the common thought on that being reversed, might want to catch up on current theory.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nother-paradox

I'll wait for the next update

Yet they have embraced Quantum Physics to explain alternative realities

They use the term because dum-dums equate it with legitimacy.

Nope, Marvel, themselves, made it perfectly clear that reality was changed by Red Skull/Kobik and then restored. If you don't want it accept it, then that's your problem, no one else's.

If it were perfectly clear, this thread wouldn't exist.

They are not. Entering the mind without someone's consent is no less horrible than entering their body. Especially as the mind is the last refuge we have. And the mind is the epicenter for who we are as a person.
.

It's ridiculous that you state this as fact. What court case established this precedent?

[capandkirby]

It's ridiculous that you state this as fact. What court case established this precedent?

Telepathy or devices which result in the same, and/or Dr. Strange's magic, naturally do not exist, but if they did, it actually would be covered under the Mental Health Declaration of Human Rights for Psychology and Psychiatry:

Which includes tidbits such as (just cutting and pasting the relevant bits):

A. The right to full informed consent, including:

2. Full disclosure of all documented risks of any proposed drug or “treatment.”

4. The right to refuse any treatment the patient considers harmful.

B. No person shall be given psychiatric or psychological treatment against his or her will.

E. Any patient has:

1. The right to be treated with dignity as a human being.

And most relevant to Steve's situation:

6. The right to have all the side effects of any offered treatment made clear and understandable to the patient, in written form and in the patient’s native language.

Maria Hill did NOT give full disclosure to the prisoners of Pleasant Hill that she was going into their minds via Kobik and changing their entire identity. Neither did Kobik to Steve.

And there's also this:

13. The right to take criminal action, with the full assistance of law enforcement agents, against any psychiatrist, psychologist or hospital staff for any abuse, false imprisonment, assault from treatment, sexual abuse or rape, or any violation of mental health or other law. And the right to a mental health law that does not indemnify or modify the penalties for criminal, abusive or negligent treatment of patients committed by any psychiatrist, psychologist or hospital staff.

So to be entirely clear. Entering someone's mind and changing it, either by erasing memories, altering them, replacing them and/or changing a person's personality, without their consent, is a violation. It is not ethical. It is a violation of human rights. It is repulsive. Steve was a victim. To say otherwise is apologist behavior that I have zero time for. Even within the confines of the Marvel universe, it is illegal. Maria Hill was put on trial for it, and found guilty. The Illuminati were judged by practically everyone who heard about what they did to Steve (when they erased his memory) for being unethical and gross. Even in their own world people look down on the type of mental manipulation Kobik dispenses.

MariaHill.jpg

Moreover, anyone who says otherwise is, quite simply, wrong. There is nothing that anyone can say to change my mind on this. Any character that does it is wrong. Point-blank. Period. They are wrong today, they will be wrong tomorrow. They will be wrong for all-time. I have made myself clear and I have nothing further to say on the subject.

[Prof. Warren]

My favorite plothole?

Cubey, as a gift to Red Skull, did what no other cosmic cube could and altered Steve Roger's past, and only his, while somehow keeping him in the main timeline. She did that as a favor to Red Skull...yet crafted a narrative that cast Red Skull as the villain and ultimately resulted in him being killed.

The definition of a plothole isn't that the story didn't go the way you expected it to or thought it should.

The fact that Kobik's gift to the Skull ultimately bit him in the ass isn't a plothole, it's a fitting, and very deliberate, narrative irony.

Also, as for Kobik doing what no other Cosmic Cube could do, this is a Cosmic Cube we're talking about. I think the rules of what this magical, fictional object can and can't is open to a great deal of leeway. This is not hard science we're talking about, it's make-believe.

Also, I'd have give SE another read to confirm but I'm pretty sure it was established that Kobik did change all of reality, not just Steve's. She changed it back at the end but Stevil was left as a remenent of that other timeline.

[Snoop Dogg]

Skull got reamed because he taught her and asked for a Hydra and her wholesome child mind created the most pure, idealistic, and distilled Hickman-style Hydra imaginable. One that found him lacking. Monkey's paw.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The definition of a plothole isn't that the story didn't go the way you expected it to or thought it should.

The fact that Kobik's gift to the Skull ultimately bit him in the ass isn't a plothole, it's a fitting, and very deliberate, narrative irony.

Also, as for Kobik doing what no other Cosmic Cube could do, this is a Cosmic Cube we're talking about. I think the rules of what this magical, fictional object can and can't is open to a great deal of leeway. This is not hard science we're talking about, it's make-believe.

Also, I'd have give SE another read to confirm but I'm pretty sure it was established that Kobik did change all of reality, not just Steve's. She changed it back at the end but Stevil was left as a remenent of that other timeline.

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it!"

Yeah, no.

There are limits to plot devises, logical uses, etc. Altering the past in such a manner, far exceeds the the established abilities of the cube.

I like how you skip over the Pymtron plot hole, btw.

[Prof. Warren]

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it!"

Yeah, no.

There are limits to plot devises, logical uses, etc. Altering the past in such a manner, far exceeds the the established abilities of the cube.

I like how you skip over the Pymtron plot hole, btw.

Again, you don't know what a plothole is.

I didn't mention Pymtron because there's nothing to address. Pymtron calling out the heroes for their flaws and missteps isn't a plothole. It's a character moment with Pymtron exposing the imperfections of Hank's former teammates.

As for the limits of the Cosmic Cube, the abilities of the Cube are not sharply defined enough where there isn't room to expand on its capabilities.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Again, you don't know what a plothole is.

I didn't mention Pymtron because there's nothing to address. Pymtron calling out the heroes for their flaws and missteps isn't a plothole. It's a character moment with Pymtron exposing the imperfections of Hank's former teammates.

As for the limits of the Cosmic Cube, the abilities of the Cube are not sharply defined enough where there isn't room to expand on its capabilities.

So a maniac determined to destroy humanity remainnig completely unaddressed isn't a plot hole?

Yeah, pot meet kettle

[Prof. Warren]

So a maniac determined to destroy humanity remainnig completely unaddressed isn't a plot hole?

Yeah, pot meet kettle

Pymtron is a problem for another day as far as the events of SE are concerned. That isn't a plothole.

As with the real world, not every single potential threat is always contained.

[theoneandonly]

Dude. Kobik had already done it. She did it to each and every prisoner at Pleasant Hill. The entire reason that prison was so heinous is that she changed people's lives - yes they were super villains, but even super villains deserve to not have their entire lives mind-raped from them and given a different life at someone else's will - without their knowledge. Which is exactly what she did to Steve. She did not say "Steven, I'm going to restore your youth but the caveat is that I'm going to change your entire history to make you believe that you were Hydra all along. I'm going to separate you from your mother at a far earlier age. I'm going to have you grow up in a Hydra boarding school to be brainwashed. I'm going to make Zemo your life-long BFF. I'm going to make "Elisa" your stand-in mother. And I'm going to convince that the Allies would have lost WW2 if they hadn't got a hold of me. That sound good to you?" What she said was "I'm going to make you a hero again". Steve who had just been fighting (and losing) to Crossbones. Steve who was still dealing with the Pleasant Hill situation. To Steve, at that moment, "being a hero again" meant he could take out Crossbones, whom he was just fighting, and dispose of the threat he, and the other pissed-off Pleasant Hill prisoners, possessed.

The only reason the 'narrative' doesn't make sense to you because you're biased against Steve. If it's not explicitly stated, it is not part of the story, and it is you doing a bad faith reading.

As for your AvX comparison. False Equivalence. First, Nova landed on Earth, barely alive, warning that "it's coming" then slipped into a coma. They also already had an experience with the Phoenix force, so they all knew already how much of a threat it possessed. If I had previously been bitten by a snake, I'm not going to assume that snake is benevolent. And then Steve had Logan telling him, in person, that the Phoenix was bad news. Logan specifically warned Steve about the threat. No one in their right mind could fault Steve being wary of a known threat whom an X-Men was specifically confirming was awful. It's ridiculous to even compare the two situations.

Honestly, I get it, you X-Men fans are determined to not let AvX go. To hang on to grudges from a story that was released YEARS ago even though both sides had a point. Whatever, that's your right. Be resentful, the only people that harms is yourself. But leave Steve out of it. You don't like him, don't talk about him, focus on what you love instead. Coming here and doing OBVIOUS bad faith readings on Steve is not productive and as a Steve fan, it only serves to piss me off and make it so I will never subscribe to and buy an X-Men title ever again if this is the way X-Men fans behave.

what is ridiculous is you looking at every decision Steve makes through rosy eyes and ignoring his fallibility which is what makes him a human and relatable character. The Phoenix had possessed Rachael and she hadn't burned earth to the ground so trusting the phoenix was no more dangerous than trusting a damaged piece of a sentient cosmic cube which was gaslighting everybody it was encountering.

she offered a poisoned apple and Steve gave in to temptation and took a bite and fell. if he had accepted the natural order of life and death not clinging on then he would have died a heroes death and if then kobik resurrected him as a agent of hydra then it would be that the full blame would fall upon her and the skull. I find that would be more acceptable for keeping caps reputation untarnished and for keeping him true to what he represents that is being as best as humanly possible but when he starts accepting cosmic handouts and doesn't accept the right of other people to do the same he comes across as a hypocrite and I say this even though I like cap and btw I am not biased against the character at all but I am not going to turn a blind eye to his faults either. that's not how true fans of a character should behave. you should not try to tell others what to talk about and you may be correct that some X-MEN fans may dislike cap but not the majority of readers are divided in such camps and like both the avengers and the X-MEN so do not be prematurely presumptuous.

As it is I am not denying cap is a victim in the story. he is but at the same time the narrative choices that Spencer made has resulted in him being conned into turning everything he despised through his lack of foresight. even after all his experience with the cube seeing what it did to Sam at the behest of the skull he trusted a unknown entity in a moment of weakness and desperation something he condemned scotty for.
so ultimately he is a participant albeit a unwitting one into the process that led to the mess and some but not ALL blame does fall upon him.

imagine that if kobik restoring him was contrary to what was his natural fate in the order of nature that his life was going to end at that moment then he would send the message that you don't have to follow the course charted by nature but do whatever it takes to keep on leading a unnaturally extended life no matter what the consequences for yourself or everyone else.
it's intriguing if Coates is going to address this narrative point sometime and if he is going to put his spin on what occurred actually.

[Michael Watkins]

Telepathy or devices which result in the same, and/or Dr. Strange's magic, naturally do not exist, but if they did, it actually would be covered under the Mental Health Declaration of Human Rights for Psychology and Psychiatry:

wholly speculative until telepathy and reality alteration is possible.

And most relevant to Steve's situation:

entirely irrelevant. no mind control occurred.

Maria Hill did NOT give full disclosure to the prisoners of Pleasant Hill that she was going into their minds via Kobik and changing their entire identity. Neither did Kobik to Steve.

again, you can't apply real world law to the marvel universe. the existence of the superpowered has altered their legal system. due process is skirted ritually in the marvel universe. if you need evidence of this, look where Stevil ended up. Maria Hill didn't need the consent of the supervillains to put them in Pleasant Hill any more than the Raft needed their consent to drug their food (read Spider-man Breakout). we've just gone through a period where SHIELD (a mostly american spy agency that is active on American soil) rounded up superhumans and pressed them into military service. Hill faced consequences for getting caught. what's funny is that the Avengers were more than willing to work with the new Quasar; who willingly took part in Pleasant Hill.

So to be entirely clear. Entering someone's mind and changing it, either by erasing memories, altering them, replacing them and/or changing a person's personality, without their consent, is a violation. It is not ethical. It is a violation of human rights. It is repulsive.

it's something that happens routinely in the genre. Moondragon did it to Quicksilver. it's Rogue's m.o. Xavier did it to Magneto. Wolverine did it to Sabretooth. etc. deal with it.

Moreover, anyone who says otherwise is, quite simply, wrong. There is nothing that anyone can say to change my mind on this. Any character that does it is wrong. Point-blank. Period. They are wrong today, they will be wrong tomorrow. They will be wrong for all-time. I have made myself clear and I have nothing further to say on the subject.

you're wrong. you will change your mind. your argument has no legs.

[Snoop Dogg]

Pymtron is a problem for another day as far as the events of SE are concerned. That isn't a plothole.

As with the real world, not every single potential threat is always contained.

Pymtron is in SE for the same reason that Hulk was, which is that the story is about the Avengers and the mistakes, and Hank and Hulk were their first big mistakes. You could cut them both from the story, but the story would be much worse.