Was Hydra Steve a clone? Is the real Steve a clone? Can someone explain it?

[Michael Watkins]

it's a damn shame that there wasn't an ongoing (even if it were only 12 issues) Dark Avenger book out during Secret Empire. there was sooo much they could have done with the Chthon-possessed Wanda (a Chanda, if you will). I would have liked to see the mischief it was getting up to in between missions. it would have been great to see Wanda struggling to regain control like a proper possession victim. I wanted full head spinning and speaking in tongues action. and isn't that particular entity Thor's uncle or something? i'd have to revisit that lore. there were just missed opportunities imo. we didn't get the press moments that we saw during Dark Reign. it was replaced with Stevil's Hydra council having small cameo (ex. Faustus at the New York stock exchange).

[Prof. Warren]

it's a damn shame that there wasn't an ongoing (even if it were only 12 issues) Dark Avenger book out during Secret Empire.

100% agree! I desperately wanted to see more of that team!

[capandkirby]

what is ridiculous is you looking at every decision Steve makes through rosy eyes and ignoring his fallibility which is what makes him a human and relatable character. The Phoenix had possessed Rachael and she hadn't burned earth to the ground so trusting the phoenix was no more dangerous than trusting a damaged piece of a sentient cosmic cube which was gaslighting everybody it was encountering.

she offered a poisoned apple and Steve gave in to temptation and took a bite and fell. if he had accepted the natural order of life and death not clinging on then he would have died a heroes death and if then kobik resurrected him as a agent of hydra then it would be that the full blame would fall upon her and the skull. I find that would be more acceptable for keeping caps reputation untarnished and for keeping him true to what he represents that is being as best as humanly possible but when he starts accepting cosmic handouts and doesn't accept the right of other people to do the same he comes across as a hypocrite and I say this even though I like cap and btw I am not biased against the character at all but I am not going to turn a blind eye to his faults either. that's not how true fans of a character should behave. you should not try to tell others what to talk about and you may be correct that some X-MEN fans may dislike cap but not the majority of readers are divided in such camps and like both the avengers and the X-MEN so do not be prematurely presumptuous.

As it is I am not denying cap is a victim in the story. he is but at the same time the narrative choices that Spencer made has resulted in him being conned into turning everything he despised through his lack of foresight. even after all his experience with the cube seeing what it did to Sam at the behest of the skull he trusted a unknown entity in a moment of weakness and desperation something he condemned scotty for.
so ultimately he is a participant albeit a unwitting one into the process that led to the mess and some but not ALL blame does fall upon him.

imagine that if kobik restoring him was contrary to what was his natural fate in the order of nature that his life was going to end at that moment then he would send the message that you don't have to follow the course charted by nature but do whatever it takes to keep on leading a unnaturally extended life no matter what the consequences for yourself or everyone else.
it's intriguing if Coates is going to address this narrative point sometime and if he is going to put his spin on what occurred actually.

Once again, you are making a false equivalence. You are so determined to put Steve on the level of Scott, it is you who has the bias, not I.

The Phoenix was a KNOWN parasite, one that, in addition to the Jean Grey history, took out Nova and put him in a coma. That is how AvX started, with Nova falling to Earth on death's door.

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And then Steve had Logan confirming the threat...

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No one in their right mind would think the Phoenix was freakin benevolent. No one. It is completely batshit to try and take that stance.

Meanwhile, the cosmic cube, unlike the Phoenix, is neither good nor bad. The maliciousness or good of it's deeds always depended on who was wielding it at the time. Red Skull had used it for evil the in the past, yes, but if you recall Steve used it to restore the memories of Bucky Barnes to the Winter Soldier. The last known wielder of the the shards, including Kobik, was Maria Hill. No one knew that Kobik was sneaking off to meet with Red Skull. And Maria Hill, while driven to the point of manic, misguided and morally gray, is not evil. Steve had no reason to suspect, at all, that what actually happened would happen.

You're trying to compare an elderly man on death's door wanting to live so he could take out the very present threat of Crossbones (and survival is the top tier of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Survival is a basic instinct) to choosing to try and tame a parasite everyone KNEW was freakin malicious because they all had previous experience with it and very recent examples of it's maliciousness. False equivalence.

Accuse me of rose colored glasses all you want, I'm rubber you're glue and all that, but you've failed to present your argument in any way that convinces me Steve has any culpability in his own victimization. I remain, and always shall remain, dubious to your claim and towards your intent.

[capandkirby]

BTW theoneandonly: Nick Spencer himself said that Steve was not at fault...

Article: https://thegeekiary.com/secret-empir...-problem/42971

Excerpt:

Nick Spencer came in with a pointed statement along the lines of, “This isn’t Cap’s fault. There was nothing he could to do prevent this, he had no choice, it wasn’t his fault.”

[Michael Watkins]

I have made myself clear and I have nothing further to say on the subject.

………………………...

[capandkirby]

………………………...

I'm no longer conversing with you, am I? I was responding to theoneandonly. Different argument from the moral ethos of mind rape. Narcissistic much?

[theoneandonly]

BTW theoneandonly: Nick Spencer himself said that Steve was not at fault...

Article: https://thegeekiary.com/secret-empir...-problem/42971

Excerpt:

of course he will say that but his own narrative puts some of the blame on Steve for partaking from the poisoned chalice. granted he was manipulated and didn't know the consequences of that action but the innumerable people who lost their lives and their near and dear ones wont find solace in that fact. frankly this was a story that has torn down Steve from his pedestal and in hindsight marvel may have regretted vetoing it at all though of course that won't stop secret empire 3 if enough fans of the story demand a sequel.

[Michael Watkins]

I say that it needs a revisit (if not a sequel). if only to explain Madame Hydra. I found her to be quite interesting. can't wait for Michelle Dockery or Ashley Judd to play her in the movie.

[Michael Watkins]

I'm no longer conversing with you, am I? I was responding to theoneandonly. Different argument from the moral ethos of mind rape. Narcissistic much?

yes? :confusion:

[capandkirby]

of course he will say that but his own narrative puts some of the blame on Steve for partaking from the poisoned chalice. granted he was manipulated and didn't know the consequences of that action but the innumerable people who lost their lives and their near and dear ones wont find solace in that fact. frankly this was a story that has torn down Steve from his pedestal and in hindsight marvel may have regretted vetoing it at all though of course that won't stop secret empire 3 if enough fans of the story demand a sequel.

It doesn't. You only think it does because you're looking for it and bending content to support your bias. There's a term for it, the act of taking a piece of content out of context to support a bias, it's called cherry picking. And, as I've already stated, the act of comparing two things that are not alike and trying to make them fit is a false equivalence. And they wont. The comics industry experienced a 17% drop in sales the year Secret Empire came out, and Marvel, who produces the most units (re:books), even more than DC, was the primary cause of it. Now I've always felt that the controversy surrounding Secret Empire was exaggerated and that most of those protesting weren't even reading it. I also think it was insane that Spencer got death threats over it. Completely inexcusable behavior. But that doesn't change the fact that Secret Empire was one (out of a few) of the reasons the comic industry is suffering. Alonso, in part, lost his job over it. And since that book Marvel has done everything they can to return to the status quo. No one is getting another one, sorry to disappoint you.

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[Michael Watkins]

the current arc can't happen without Secret Empire. it is steeped in it. if they are returning to the status quo, why is Rogers a fugitive?

[Prof. Warren]

the current arc can't happen without Secret Empire. it is steeped in it. if they are returning to the status quo, why is Rogers a fugitive?

Because he's been framed for killing Ross. Or are you asking why Steve isn't universally accepted as a hero?

I think the obvious answer is that SE left a lot on the table that any writer would want to continue to explore.

Also, most of the best Cap stories tend to have him at odds with the government, either due to elements within the government conspiring against him or by an outside force making him look bad or due to his own inner conflicts with the current administration.

[Michael Watkins]

Because he's been framed for killing Ross. Or are you asking why Steve isn't universally accepted as a hero?

I think the obvious answer is that SE left a lot on the table that any writer would want to continue to explore.

Also, most of the best Cap stories tend to have him at odds with the government, either due to elements within the government conspiring against him or by an outside force making him look bad or due to his own inner conflicts with the current administration.

so is the status quo Steve Rogers not being Captain America? because that seems to be the trajectory of this arc.

[Prof. Warren]

so is the status quo Steve Rogers not being Captain America? because that seems to be the trajectory of this arc.

Steve is Cap in other books so either this arc is taking place before or after them.

One would have to keep reading to find out where the outcome of this arc leaves Steve.

[Michael Watkins]

Steve is Cap in other books so either this arc is taking place before or after them.

or it's not Steve.