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  1. #1
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    Default Was Hydra Steve a clone? Is the real Steve a clone? Can someone explain it?

    I found the end of Spencerís run very confusing. I get that Steve came back but what is Hydra Steve now? And do they attempt to explain the physics of what actually happened?

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Hydra!Steve used to be the original Steve Rogers, while the Steve in the Vanishing Point was a jumbled mess of Kobik’s memory of him. But when the Cosmic Cube was used at the end of Secret Empire, the heroes made it into a universe where Stevil is the fake and Steve is the real deal.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    Its fan outrage BS. Lol. They caved to make them happy. Steve should just have been turned back to normal. Hydra Cap is the real Cap. Lol.

  4. #4
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    Hydra Cap is basically the original Steve Rodgers' body being inhabited by a creation of Kobik from a false history. Meanwhile the real Steve Rodgers was shunted into the vanishing point. When Steve finally convinced her to fight back against Hydra Cap, she manifested the original Steve into the physical world.

  5. #5
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    Hydra Steve was the original Steve Rogers with false memories. But the real Captain America is an idea, a symbol, the keeper of the American dream in his purest form. It's not clear if he was conceived by Kobik or not, but the Steve Rogers at the end of Secret Empire is real, cause he is loyal to the dream.


    Capture díécran 2019-03-18 à 03.38.08.jpg
    Last edited by lordozone; 03-17-2019 at 09:04 PM.
    I try to improve my english, feel free to correct me by DM if you see some mistakes !

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Its fan outrage BS. Lol. They caved to make them happy. Steve should just have been turned back to normal. Hydra Cap is the real Cap. Lol.
    Wouldn't the story have had to be written too far in advance to be able to change it like that at the last minute?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  7. #7
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    In Avengers Standoff, Kobik rewrites all of Marvel history to make Hydra Cap and his history real. The normal Cap history is the real one before that event. At the end of Secret Empire, Kobik fixes it to restore the original Marvel history, but leaves Hydra Cap behind. There is a panel in #10 about history being restored. So Hydra Cap's history no longer exists or was punted to another universe or whatever. It only exists in his memory now. Good Steve is the real and original Captain America. Hydra Cap is now the clone, but he will never believe that and now Hydra's guiding principle is that the world was stolen from them by the Allies during WWII via Stevil's version of events. But it's not true. In terms of who has the "original" body it's ultimately meaningless because Hydra Cap was created by just rewriting over Steve's old body anyway. So they're both clones?! Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruh.

    Marvel did not change anything about Spencer's story. It was always his intention to leave Stevil and a refurbished Hydra behind, which he has praised Marvel for. Since he left for Spider-Man they haven't even been handling the Hydra stuff well, which is basically proof that it's the writer's ideas being ignored by other writers.
    Last edited by Snoop Dogg; 03-18-2019 at 01:35 AM.
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  8. #8
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    expect the hydra cap and the vanishing point cap to arm wrestle for the right to be called the true Captain sooner or later.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Wouldn't the story have had to be written too far in advance to be able to change it like that at the last minute?
    You never know these days.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they intended some epic battle to restore Steve or whatever, but forgot basic internal logic.

    If they use the Cube to just fix Steve, how does the rest of the MU know that anything was actually done? Just take the heroe's word?

    So they had to create two Steves.

    It's not as if their final result was terribly thought out, after all

  10. #10
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordozone View Post
    Hydra Steve was the original Steve Rogers with false memories. But the real Captain America is an idea, a symbol, the keeper of the American dream in his purest form. It's not clear if he was conceived by Kobik or not, but the Steve Rogers at the end of Secret Empire is real, cause he is loyal to the dream.

    Capture díécran 2019-03-18 à 03.38.08.jpg
    Yes, he most certainly is.



    If anything the original Steve Rogers died the moment Kobik restored Captain America's youth. Instead what we have left are two wholesale creations of her imagination, the Hydra Cap and the Redux Cap, neither of whom share a connection to the original Steve Rogers.

    But hey, the heroes won the war so Redux Cap gets to be Steve until Secret Empire II.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Its fan outrage BS. Lol. They caved to make them happy. Steve should just have been turned back to normal. Hydra Cap is the real Cap. Lol.
    No, not the cast at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Wouldn't the story have had to be written too far in advance to be able to change it like that at the last minute?
    Exactly. Nothing was altered due to "fan outrage." Secret Empire is the story as it was originally mapped out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    In Avengers Standoff, Kobik rewrites all of Marvel history to make Hydra Cap and his history real. The normal Cap history is the real one before that event. At the end of Secret Empire, Kobik fixes it to restore the original Marvel history, but leaves Hydra Cap behind. There is a panel in #10 about history being restored. So Hydra Cap's history no longer exists or was punted to another universe or whatever. It only exists in his memory now. Good Steve is the real and original Captain America. Hydra Cap is now the clone, but he will never believe that and now Hydra's guiding principle is that the world was stolen from them by the Allies during WWII via Stevil's version of events. But it's not true. In terms of who has the "original" body it's ultimately meaningless because Hydra Cap was created by just rewriting over Steve's old body anyway. So they're both clones?! Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruh.

    Marvel did not change anything about Spencer's story. It was always his intention to leave Stevil and a refurbished Hydra behind, which he has praised Marvel for.
    And this is all that needs to be said about the matter.

    And by the way, any talk of of the "original body" or the clone is really meaningless in the scope of the larger MU as the whole universe was destroyed and restored in both Remender's Uncanny Avengers run and in Hickman's Secret Wars. So every single person in the universe is a copy at least two times over. No need to hand wring about Cap personally.

  12. #12
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    I really hated how we end up with two Steve Rogers at the end of Secret Empire. I rather we have one Steve Rogers dealing with the memories of both versions. That would have been a better impact on the story and we would have got Sam as Captain America a bit longer.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    You never know these days.
    Yes, we actually do.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    If they use the Cube to just fix Steve, how does the rest of the MU know that anything was actually done? Just take the heroe's word?

    So they had to create two Steves.
    They didn't have to, it was always the plan.

    Clearly, a major aspect of SE was about establishing HydraCap as a new menace in the MU. He was never meant to vanish into nothingness at the end. You don't spend a year or so building up a character only to scrub them.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    It's not as if their final result was terribly thought out, after all
    The fact that some readers don't understand something, or are too lazy to read and/or comprehend it, doesn't mean it wasn't thought out.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    In Avengers Standoff, Kobik rewrites all of Marvel history to make Hydra Cap and his history real. The normal Cap history is the real one before that event. At the end of Secret Empire, Kobik fixes it to restore the original Marvel history, but leaves Hydra Cap behind. There is a panel in #10 about history being restored. So Hydra Cap's history no longer exists or was punted to another universe or whatever. It only exists in his memory now. Good Steve is the real and original Captain America. Hydra Cap is now the clone, but he will never believe that and now Hydra's guiding principle is that the world was stolen from them by the Allies during WWII via Stevil's version of events. But it's not true. In terms of who has the "original" body it's ultimately meaningless because Hydra Cap was created by just rewriting over Steve's old body anyway. So they're both clones?! Whatever helps you sleep at night, bruh.

    Marvel did not change anything about Spencer's story. It was always his intention to leave Stevil and a refurbished Hydra behind, which he has praised Marvel for. Since he left for Spider-Man they haven't even been handling the Hydra stuff well, which is basically proof that it's the writer's ideas being ignored by other writers.
    so basically Kobik is now responsible for all of Stevil's crimes. he's her creation. she chose to leave him around after "restoring" reality. and he is twisted because of her and the reality that she created. is that about right?
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  15. #15
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    so basically Kobik is now responsible for all of Stevil's crimes. he's her creation. she chose to leave him around after "restoring" reality. and he is twisted because of her and the reality that she created. is that about right?
    Eggsactly.
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