Was Hydra Steve a clone? Is the real Steve a clone? Can someone explain it?

[Michael Watkins]

Maria Hill is what allowed Secret Empire to happen, not proactivity. She was told to destroy the cube fragments. She did not. Instead she built an illegal and HIGHLY unethical prison behind everyone's backs with it. And when Kobik wasn't busy with brainwashing criminals to believe that they're actually (but not really) model class citizens and major contributors to society, she was off to engage in a series of chats with her good friend Red Skull who convinced her that Hydra rising to power would be like the second coming. Yet the other heroes being complacent certainly helped Red Skull and Kobik achieve their goals, even if Hill was ultimately at fault. So yes, complacency.

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the other heroes were actively fighting the Red Skull. they took him down. and Stevil rescued him. no amount of proactivity was going to stop a cosmic cube from cosmic cubing.

[capandkirby]

the other heroes were actively fighting the Red Skull. they took him down. and Stevil rescued him. no amount of proactivity was going to stop a cosmic cube from cosmic cubing.

But they missed a lot of clues along the way, didn't they. Things that didn't add up. Things they just let go in pursuit of arguing among themselves. In other words, they were complacent. I've shown you exact panels. Here's another one of Sam stating that the heroes were "divided, torn apart and broken". This was how it was written, this is the way it is. It's unfortunate it didn't work for you, take it up with Spencer.

Sam.jpg

[WebLurker]

You never know these days.

I wouldn't be surprised if they intended some epic battle to restore Steve or whatever, but forgot basic internal logic.

If they use the Cube to just fix Steve, how does the rest of the MU know that anything was actually done? Just take the heroe's word?

So they had to create two Steves.

It's not as if their final result was terribly thought out, after all

Everything I've heard about the story does suggest that it's very confusing (at best) and that that skipping it was a really good decision on my part. Still, from a logistics perspective, I can't see how they would've been able to turn around and change the ending after they got started. Making these things takes time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Everything I've heard about the story does suggest that it's very confusing (at best) and that that skipping it was a really good decision on my part. Still, from a logistics perspective, I can't see how they would've been able to turn around and change the ending after they got started. Making these things takes time.

True, I suspect that the story evolved over time and the two Steves was something they shoe horned in after they finished some of the plots.

Remember that the majority of wrongdoing during Secret Empire was shoved off onto Stevil's council. They decided to kill Ric Jones, after all, and bomb Vegas.

But then, internal logic was pretty crappy all around. We had Pymtron lecture both sides about making the crossover into yet another Civil War, and then the evil machine...went back into space?

Then there was Stevil conquering Wakanda using the exact same method he used on Shield.

And then there was the whole 'message' of don't be so trusting of one individual (Cap), despite the fact that every hero who wasn't Deadpool switched sides the second Cap revealed he was with Hydra.

And then there was Thor allying with Cap, t protec Jane Foster, despite knowing that she had cancer and the hammer was the only thing keeping her alive.

And then, well...it's a long list.

Secret Empire was poorly plotted on oh so many levels. That they kept Stevil's hands relatively clean (by comic book standards, people) for so long, indicates to me that they originally planned for Steve to be unpossessed by Cubey.

[Michael Watkins]

But they missed a lot of clues along the way, didn't they. Things that didn't add up. Things they just let go in pursuit of arguing among themselves. In other words, they were complacent. I've shown you exact panels. Here's another one of Sam stating that the heroes were "divided, torn apart and broken". This was how it was written, this is the way it is. It's unfortunate it didn't work for you, take it up with Spencer.

Sam.jpg

It worked for me fine. I wish that Secret Empire was still going. I don't agree with your interpretation. The heroes were divided literally by a very thorough plan concocted by a superior strategist. He broke them because he had the experience to do so. Carol's group was united. There was no way to account for a sleeper agent of hydra. From their perspective, he had been fighting hydra for over a decade.

[theoneandonly]

you know everybody blames the skull and kobik for hydra cap but ultimately the secret empire was the outcome of one wish made on a monkeys paw in a moment of weakness as Spencer' told it though why kobik did require his permission to alter him is never explained. after all she is a cube who can perform any feat at her whim. if she required Steve to willingly accept her offer to transform him for her to work her magic then it indicates either or both of two things namely the sentient cube was not that adept/experienced in her use of power and so it would have struggled to alter such a individual like Steve and that Captain Americas being tied to the concept of nation's hopes and aspirations as a national symbol makes the cube work on him difficult at times as shown when an attempt to erase him from reality erased America as well.

anyways ultimately the story of pleasant hill unfolds in such a way that we see that it's ultimately Steve who is as much responsible for secret empire as the red skull as he supposedly wouldn't have been transformed into hydra cap or whatever if he had resisted the temptation to be in his prime again and simply accepted that it was his time to pass on having a long and fruitful life but he couldn't resist the soldier's urge to fight yet another battle and so succumbed to the red skulls machinations which led to the coming of hydra cap.

so ultimately Spencer has shown that cap himself also had agency and was part of the process that led to hydra cap albeit unwittingly. he has deconstructed Steve and shown him to be human and fallible as the next guy when he doesn't have a serum to fall back upon and is subject to the same albeit understandable desire to live on instead of going albeit not gently into the night which unintentionally led to the whole mess.

The road to the hell that is secret empire was paved with the good intentions of Steve who ultimately couldn't accept leaving his country undefended by his absence even though there were other defenders or perhaps it was more of a desire to soldier on as that's all he knew most of his life so surrender was never an option for him not to crossbones and nor death.

[capandkirby]

you know everybody blames the skull and kobik for hydra cap but ultimately the secret empire was the outcome of one wish made on a monkeys paw in a moment of weakness as Spencer' told it though why kobik did require his permission to alter him is never explained. after all she is a cube who can perform any feat at her whim. if she required Steve to willingly accept her offer to transform him for her to work her magic then it indicates either or both of two things namely the sentient cube was not that adept/experienced in her use of power and so it would have struggled to alter such a individual like Steve and that Captain Americas being tied to the concept of nation's hopes and aspirations as a national symbol makes the cube work on him difficult at times as shown when an attempt to erase him from reality erased America as well.

anyways ultimately the story of pleasant hill unfolds in such a way that we see that it's ultimately Steve who is as much responsible for secret empire as the red skull as he supposedly wouldn't have been transformed into hydra cap or whatever if he had resisted the temptation to be in his prime again and simply accepted that it was his time to pass on having a long and fruitful life but he couldn't resist the soldier's urge to fight yet another battle and so succumbed to the red skulls machinations which led to the coming of hydra cap.

so ultimately Spencer has shown that cap himself also had agency and was part of the process that led to hydra cap albeit unwittingly. he has deconstructed Steve and shown him to be human and fallible as the next guy when he doesn't have a serum to fall back upon and is subject to the same albeit understandable desire to live on instead of going albeit not gently into the night which unintentionally led to the whole mess.

The road to the hell that is secret empire was paved with the good intentions of Steve who ultimately couldn't accept leaving his country undefended by his absence even though there were other defenders or perhaps it was more of a desire to soldier on as that's all he knew most of his life so surrender was never an option for him not to crossbones and nor death.

Oh freakin' HOGWASH. You are doing a very clear-cut Bad Faith Reading.

No one held a gun to Red Skull's head and told him to plot to turn Steve Rogers evil to have Hydra take over the world. No one held a gun to Kobik's head and told her to help the Skull carry this plot out. No one held a gun to Maria Hill's head and told her to keep the cosmic cube fragments around after she was explicitly told to destroy them. The fault does not lie with Steve for choosing life over death, something anyone would have done in his shoes, especially with the threat of Crossbones very present. Hell, if Kobik came to me - I'm 42 - and offered to restore me to my 20's do you know how freakin fast I would accept that offer? And it wasn't framed to Steve as "I'm going to restore your youth but the caveat is that you're going to be evil", it was presented to Steve as "I can make you a hero again".

Kobik4.jpg

Steve, who had been fighting Crossbones. Steve who, despite his age, was dealing with the events of Avengers Standoff. Steve had no way of knowing, considering that there was a very present threat, that this meant something else entirely. And the first thing Steve did when his youth was restored? Take out the very present threat of Crossbones.

You're ASSUMING that Kobik couldn't have changed Steve without his consent even though that was never stated in the plot. At all. She's the cosmic cube, she had dozens of super villains convinced they were entirely different people, good people, in Pleasant Hill. She could have easily changed Steve without his consent considering she had just done it Zemo, Fixer, etc.

Honestly, if you're going to fault a character for their actions, do it only if the storytelling explicitly states they did something wrong. Which Steve didn't. There are three people at fault for Secret Empire and they are Red Skull, Kobik and Maria Hill. Point-blank, period.

[theoneandonly]

I didn't say so. its the narrative of Spencer that indicates that the red skull manipulated Steve into the position when he felt vulnerable enough to give in and accept the offer of renewed youth which as I have said is understandable as he is only human but it does make him part of the process that led to the emergence of hydra cap. could kobik have done so without the scenario that red skull brought about by having crossbones attack him. surely not otherwise that scenario just doesn't make any sense and would lead to conclusions that Spencer was winging it and changing his narrative whenever convenient. ultimately it's Spencer who portrays Steve in a unfavourable light given what Steve's decision to blindly trust a cosmic power without giving thought to the consequences led to something he was willing to condemn Scott for and willing to go to war with the X-MEN for. Scott was assuming that the phoenix was coming to earth with benevolent intentions and saw no danger in it just as cap felt it was safe to trust the sentient damaged cube who is shown to be a entity that has already participated in gaslighting many criminals and manipulating them through best of intentions or just because she knew no better but yet cap couldn't find the offer coming with strings leading to him becoming a victim and a unintentional part of the process that led to the whole mess later. thus he is on par with Cyclops and Pym who both were unwilling dupes sometime or other.

[capandkirby]

I didn't say so. its the narrative of Spencer that indicates that the red skull manipulated Steve into the position when he felt vulnerable enough to give in and accept the offer of renewed youth which as I have said is understandable as he is only human but it does make him part of the process that led to the emergence of hydra cap. could kobik have done so without the scenario that red skull brought about by having crossbones attack him. surely not otherwise that scenario just doesn't make any sense and would lead to conclusions that Spencer was winging it and changing his narrative whenever convenient. ultimately it's Spencer who portrays Steve in a unfavourable light given what Steve's decision to blindly trust a cosmic power without giving thought to the consequences led to something he was willing to condemn Scott for and willing to go to war with the X-MEN for. Scott was assuming that the phoenix was coming to earth with benevolent intentions and saw no danger in it just as cap felt it was safe to trust the sentient damaged cube who is shown to be a entity that has already participated in gaslighting many criminals and manipulating them through best of intentions or just because she knew no better but yet cap couldn't find the offer coming with strings leading to him becoming a victim and a unintentional part of the process that led to the whole mess later. thus he is on par with Cyclops and Pym who both were unwilling dupes sometime or other.

Dude. Kobik had already done it. She did it to each and every prisoner at Pleasant Hill. The entire reason that prison was so heinous is that she changed people's lives - yes they were super villains, but even super villains deserve to not have their entire lives mind-raped from them and given a different life at someone else's will - without their knowledge. Which is exactly what she did to Steve. She did not say "Steven, I'm going to restore your youth but the caveat is that I'm going to change your entire history to make you believe that you were Hydra all along. I'm going to separate you from your mother at a far earlier age. I'm going to have you grow up in a Hydra boarding school to be brainwashed. I'm going to make Zemo your life-long BFF. I'm going to make "Elisa" your stand-in mother. And I'm going to convince that the Allies would have lost WW2 if they hadn't got a hold of me. That sound good to you?" What she said was "I'm going to make you a hero again". Steve who had just been fighting (and losing) to Crossbones. Steve who was still dealing with the Pleasant Hill situation. To Steve, at that moment, "being a hero again" meant he could take out Crossbones, whom he was just fighting, and dispose of the threat he, and the other pissed-off Pleasant Hill prisoners, possessed.

The only reason the 'narrative' doesn't make sense to you because you're biased against Steve. If it's not explicitly stated, it is not part of the story, and it is you doing a bad faith reading.

As for your AvX comparison. False Equivalence. First, Nova landed on Earth, barely alive, warning that "it's coming" then slipped into a coma. They also already had an experience with the Phoenix force, so they all knew already how much of a threat it possessed. If I had previously been bitten by a snake, I'm not going to assume that snake is benevolent. And then Steve had Logan telling him, in person, that the Phoenix was bad news. Logan specifically warned Steve about the threat. No one in their right mind could fault Steve being wary of a known threat whom an X-Men was specifically confirming was awful. It's ridiculous to even compare the two situations.

Honestly, I get it, you X-Men fans are determined to not let AvX go. To hang on to grudges from a story that was released YEARS ago even though both sides had a point. Whatever, that's your right. Be resentful, the only people that harms is yourself. But leave Steve out of it. You don't like him, don't talk about him, focus on what you love instead. Coming here and doing OBVIOUS bad faith readings on Steve is not productive and as a Steve fan, it only serves to piss me off and make it so I will never subscribe to and buy an X-Men title ever again if this is the way X-Men fans behave.

[Prof. Warren]

True, I suspect that the story evolved over time and the two Steves was something they shoe horned in after they finished some of the plots.

That they kept Stevil's hands relatively clean (by comic book standards, people) for so long, indicates to me that they originally planned for Steve to be unpossessed by Cubey.

No. The end of SE, the one we all read, was known before HydraCap uttered his first "Hail Hydra." Guaranteed.

If you're Marvel, you don't even put that train on the tracks without knowing where you're going to be on the other side of it.

I suspect you're one of those who criticized SE and the HydraCap saga the whole way through, for a year or more, perceiving it as a mind control story and when it wasn't that at all (which, from the start, Marvel told us it wasn't), the complaint then becomes "Well, uh, they must've changed the story mid-way through!" to cover for your own misreading of the story.

[Alan2099]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

They magically changed Steve into somebody else, then they magically brought the original back to stop him.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.

They magically changed Steve into somebody else, then they magically brought the original back to stop him.

or Kobik "magically" created a new Steve Rogers to stop the original Steve Rogers who had been corrupted by Elisa Sinclair's Hydra.

[Michael Watkins]

Dude. Kobik had already done it. She did it to each and every prisoner at Pleasant Hill.

if that were the case, Stevil would have just changed back to Steve at the end of the story. that's what happened to the prisoners of Pleasant Hill.

The entire reason that prison was so heinous is that she changed people's lives

that's a fair interpretation. but was it heinous? were they suffering? Maria Hill was quite willing to subject herself to the same heinousness.

yes they were super villains, but even super villains deserve to not have their entire lives mind-raped from them and given a different life at someone else's will

but it was done by a cosmic cube. in effect, Kobik is god. how's it different from the 'fate' that occurred to make them villains? someone like Armadillo has spent most of his career trying to get un-armadillo'd. someone like him might have preferred Pleasant Hill. Hill could have made it hell on Earth. she has that mindset. what normally happens is that someone like Daredevil beats them to within an inch of a life and they are shipped off to a hi-tech dungeon where they wear large cumbersome power-canceling harnesses.

without their knowledge. Which is exactly what she did to Steve.

technically, Steve asked to be changed. he just didn't read the fine print.

She did not say "Steven, I'm going to restore your youth but the caveat is that I'm going to change your entire history to make you believe that you were Hydra all along. I'm going to separate you from your mother at a far earlier age.

but she didn't do that, right? you said that it was a sim where everyone had free will. some overpaid henchmen separated Steve from his mother, accidentally. they did end the abuse from his father prematurely.

I'm going to have you grow up in a Hydra boarding school to be brainwashed.

eh. that's overstated. they did to him what the military does. if he had been brainwashed, he would have been able to pull the trigger on Erskine. and "regular" Steve employed violence to get the kooky quartet in line.

I'm going to make Zemo your life-long BFF.

that's a negative? Helmut was more helpful than Bucky.

I'm going to make "Elisa" your stand-in mother. And I'm going to convince that the Allies would have lost WW2 if they hadn't got a hold of me. That sound good to you?" What she said was "I'm going to make you a hero again". Steve who had just been fighting (and losing) to Crossbones. Steve who was still dealing with the Pleasant Hill situation. To Steve, at that moment, "being a hero again" meant he could take out Crossbones, whom he was just fighting, and dispose of the threat he, and the other pissed-off Pleasant Hill prisoners, possessed.

take Kobik's save out of the equation and Crossbones beats him to death.

Honestly, I get it, you X-Men fans are determined to not let AvX go. To hang on to grudges from a story that was released YEARS ago even though both sides had a point. Whatever, that's your right. Be resentful, the only people that harms is yourself. But leave Steve out of it. You don't like him, don't talk about him, focus on what you love instead. Coming here and doing OBVIOUS bad faith readings on Steve is not productive and as a Steve fan, it only serves to piss me off and make it so I will never subscribe to and buy an X-Men title ever again if this is the way X-Men fans behave.

weird.

[capandkirby]

that's a fair interpretation. but was it heinous? were they suffering? Maria Hill was quite willing to subject herself to the same heinousness.

You do not go into someone's mind and change their life/history/personality. It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done. Our minds are our identities. Our memories are our identities. They make us who we are. You do not change them because in doing so you are effectively killing the person that existed up to that moment and creating an entirely new person. Killing is wrong.

but it was done by a cosmic cube. in effect, Kobik is god. how's it different from the 'fate' that occurred to make them villains? someone like Armadillo has spent most of his career trying to get un-armadillo'd. someone like him might have preferred Pleasant Hill. Hill could have made it hell on Earth. she has that mindset. what normally happens is that someone like Daredevil beats them to within an inch of a life and they are shipped off to a hi-tech dungeon where they wear large cumbersome power-canceling harnesses.

One is organic, one was not. There is no such thing as fate. The timeline is unbending. If a change occurs that deviates from the timeline, an alternative universe is created to compensate. This is quantum physics 101. Something Marvel themselves uses, when they're not busy making up comicbook science.

technically, Steve asked to be changed. he just didn't read the fine print.

He did not 'ask' to be changed. He was offered.

Kobik4.jpg

but she didn't do that, right? you said that it was a sim where everyone had free will. some overpaid henchmen separated Steve from his mother, accidentally. they did end the abuse from his father prematurely.

We've been over this. Stevil had freewill. His rewritten history, however, his childhood, was a novel written by Red Skull and brought to life by Kobik.

eh. that's overstated. they did to him what the military does. if he had been brainwashed, he would have been able to pull the trigger on Erskine. and "regular" Steve employed violence to get the kooky quartet in line.

Uh yes, the Kooky Quartet, a team of recently reformed villains whom, Clint especially, tried to undermine and overthrow Steve at every turn. You call it employed violence, I call it self-defense. Not saying Clint is a bad character, in fact, I love him, but early on he was a jerk.

that's a negative? Helmut was more helpful than Bucky.

Helmut Zemo is a murderer, a career criminal and a sociopath.

take Kobik's save out of the equation and Crossbones beats him to death.

Exactly why Steve felt the need to take Kobik up on her offer to be restored. So he could deal with Crossbones, and every other threat Avengers Standoff presented them.

weird.

Didn't ask. My feelings on the matter are my feelings on the matter and I do not seek nor welcome your input.

[Michael Watkins]

You do not go into someone's mind and change their life/history/personality. It doesn't matter who you are or what you've done. Our minds are our identities. Our memories are our identities. They make us who we are. You do not change them because in doing so you are effectively killing the person that existed up to that moment and creating an entirely new person. Killing is wrong.

couldn't be that wrong. Iron Man, Henry Pym, Reed Richards, the entire Squadron Supreme, and Spider-man have all taken turns erasing memories/altering reality. do you feel the same way about mood-altering drugs?

One is organic, one was not. There is no such thing as fate. The timeline is unbending. If a change occurs that deviates from the timeline, an alternative universe is created to compensate. This is quantum physics 101. Something Marvel themselves uses, when they're not busy making up comicbook science.

cosmic trumps organic, imo. and you really shouldn't bring up physics in a world where Hank Pym is the scientist supreme.

He did not 'ask' to be changed. He was offered.

it's still not what happened to the villains in Pleasant Hill.

We've been over this. Stevil had freewill. His rewritten history, however, his childhood, was a novel written by Red Skull and brought to life by Kobik.

I don't think that the Red Skull had much to do with Steve's childhood. Kobik had creative control over that part. Skull's story was about the greatness of Hydra. but the actual events of Steve's childhood didn't help the Skull's overall plan. the two big influences in his life were Elisa and Daniel Whitehall. both steered him away from being what the Skull needed. at no point, did he have Stevil's loyalty.

Uh yes, the Kooky Quartet, a team of recently reformed villains whom, Clint especially, tried to undermine and overthrow Steve at every turn. You call it employed violence, I call it self-defense. Not saying Clint is a bad character, in fact, I love him, but early on he was a jerk.

so it's ok when it's the villains being brutalized. Pleasant Hill was self defense.

Helmut Zemo is a murderer, a career criminal and a sociopath.

in this reality, he was a loyal patriot, the prodigal son, and Steve's protector. even in what you call the original reality, Helmut had saved the world (existence even) more than once. you call him a career criminal. he was a college student when he became the Phoenix. he was solely out to get revenge on the person who (from his perspective) murdered his father. you make him sound like a bank robber.

Exactly why Steve felt the need to take Kobik up on her offer to be restored. So he could deal with Crossbones, and every other threat Avengers Standoff presented them.

and deal with them he did, as Stevil. sounds like a fair trade/buyer beware.

Didn't ask. My feelings on the matter are my feelings on the matter and I do not seek nor welcome your input.

yet here we are having a conversation. weird.