February 2019 sales

[leo619]

The thing is people try to protect the things they like. This isn't just "classic" fans (that's why there are many people who complaint about Rebirth and the erase of New52 Superman too). At most, their voices are louder because they are the majority


The thing is you can't mantain all the story and continuity (which "classic" fans want), but being easily accesible to new readers.

New52 tried to appeal many demographics, but it failed. It erased a good portion of the old continuity, which make classic fans angry. However, it still used part of the old continuity and stories, so it was still difficult that new readers can enter.

Oh no doubt, believe me I completely understand the reasoning as to why Classic fans were vocal about the changes. Classic Fans want history and continuity, and new 52 wiped all of that way. So I understand that, just like how I understand how classic fans were upset about the legacy characters that replaced them in ANAD Marvel. Even though that's my favorite period ever in comics, I completely understand classic fans being upset about having their characters sideline.
The same apply here.

But the problem is that many classic fans like to try and portray that their viewpoint was the reason why New52 crashed and burn, as we see here in Rebirth, it's clearly not the case. Rebirth, like New 52, was inflicted by bad execution, and it's that execution that caused new 52 to fail, just like it's that execution that's causing rebirth to fail.

[leo619]

If Cho was really a big success he wouldn't be going by "Brawn." He's not sharing the spotlight compared to The Hulk.

But I don't think that's really comparable to Earth-2. The concept, execution, and role are extremely different from legacy heroes in a main continuity. Earth-2 was meant to be the only JSA around.

Jane as Thor sells better than main thor, still doesn't change the fact that she was removed.

So you can't say changing a name somehow means a character wasn't successful.

With that said, it is partially comparable yes, because it provides the indication that with the correct execution, the same pattern can be applied to Earth 2 and JSA.

I don't think we've seen enough evidence to conclude they're not close, especially with everything Iris is already dealing on-top of that. All things considered Wallace seems to be taking the Flashpoint thing well aside from being mad at Barry for the umpteenth time.

Agree to Disagree.

Jessica and Simon were on the Rebirth team together.

That's what I said. New 52 started with one POC and ended with 2. Rebirth started with three and ended with 2.
Justice League had to established the founding members and then increase like I expected, while rebirth already had the new 52 history in place
so they didn't need to scorch the earth to establish new members.

I dunno. It seems pretty widely-regarded as Johns' weakest arc on the book, whether the reviewer be classic or New 52. And the animated movie wasn't received much better.

Not from what I've seen, new 52 fans mostly called the arc average but not his weakest. I've never seen the animated movie so I can't speak on that.

Forever Evil isn't a founding Justice League story.

Founding Justice League Story? Care to elaborate on what you mean here?
Because really the founding members were established within the first arc, so that's the only founding justice league story.

I care about characters. That means I care about their history, who they are, and what they represent. I don't think that makes me a "classic" fan since I would like to think New 52 fans care about the same thing, in their own way. Otherwise why even care about these characters?

The New 52 started off with a huge bang because it was a much publicized reboot, and much like all of Marvel's relaunches it petered out after the shine fell off.

THat does make you a classic fan, as people as LITERALLY SAID IN THIS THREAD that want appeased them about the new 52 was the fact that things started over. That's what I'm talking about, you refuse to see other people's perspective because of what solely interest you. And that is often a testament of classic fans portraying their viewpoint as the universal viewpoint. You see I history is not a big deal to me. It's interesting, but it's more the execution or the possibility of said character that interest me. Cyborg was rebooted entirely, and my favorite cyborg probably to date is the cyborg written and drawn in the early issue of JSO. You have classic fans who prefer his Titan Days, you have new 52 fans who favorite time is with David Walker and Ivan Reis, we all have different interest and different things we look for as characters. So just because you find the history of a character important doesn't mean the rest of the world follow suits.

I think it was a case of both.

Especially since they didn't even really do a restart on everything.

The only thing they didn't restart was the green lantern history, which they specifically stated they weren't going to do. Everything else was rebooted. So you can think it was a case of both all you want. But the fact that rebirth is currently doing worse then new 52 at it's current state says it's wasn't.

Ironically enough that same era had the same people running it. But did that era have the same issue with minorities and female characters that the New 52 did?

No, their issues were worst because they believed POC would be perfectly fine reading POC's as just members on a team, and they wondered why the comic book market at that time was over 86% white males over the age of 28.

Both DC and Marvel realized they were doing terrible, it wasn't just a DC thing. It was just that DC execution with new 52 was horrible, while Marvel created ANAD which is pretty self explanatory.

Which is also very surprising when you think about the gatekeeping that some classic fans and comic book shops do.

[Frontier]

Jane as Thor sells better than main thor, still doesn't change the fact that she was removed.

So you can't say changing a name somehow means a character wasn't successful.

With that said, it is partially comparable yes, because it provides the indication that with the correct execution, the same pattern can be applied to Earth 2 and JSA.

Jane hasn't gotten a new identity yet, outside an Avengers cartoon. I was talking strictly about Cho. The same thing happened to Sam Wilson.

And I'm pretty sure right now the current Thor volume is at comparable sales to the Jane volume.

You could probably make a distinctive Earth-2 from the JSA but my point is that was not what the New 52 JSA was envisioned as from the beginning, so you would have to do something different with it now.

Agree to Disagree.

I think we should "agree to wait and see."

That's what I said. New 52 started with one POC and ended with 2. Rebirth started with three and ended with 2.
Justice League had to established the founding members and then increase like I expected, while rebirth already had the new 52 history in place
so they didn't need to scorch the earth to establish new members.

I really doubt Cyborg being a founder opened up any doors to more diversity in the Justice League (and, again, seems like there was more in the Rebirth era).

It we're going to point to anyone for that, it would probably be John Stewart.

Not from what I've seen, new 52 fans mostly called the arc average but not his weakest. I've never seen the animated movie so I can't speak on that.

I think an average arc for Geoff Johns is pretty weak. What was his weakest arc? "The Villains Journey?"

I've just never seen much praise for that arc.

Founding Justice League Story? Care to elaborate on what you mean here?
Because really the founding members were established within the first arc, so that's the only founding justice league story.

Stories where the Justice League is founded, like the comic, the animated movie, or the live-action movie.

THat does make you a classic fan, as people as LITERALLY SAID IN THIS THREAD that want appeased them about the new 52 was the fact that things started over. That's what I'm talking about, you refuse to see other people's perspective because of what solely interest you. And that is often a testament of classic fans portraying their viewpoint as the universal viewpoint. You see I history is not a big deal to me. It's interesting, but it's more the execution or the possibility of said character that interest me. Cyborg was rebooted entirely, and my favorite cyborg probably to date is the cyborg written and drawn in the early issue of JSO. You have classic fans who prefer his Titan Days, you have new 52 fans who favorite time is with David Walker and Ivan Reis, we all have different interest and different things we look for as characters. So just because you find the history of a character important doesn't mean the rest of the world follow suits.

I care about characters, and I believe a characters history and their development and how that informs their personalities makes them who they are, and enriches whatever concepts or ideas you come up for with them. That is almost universally seen as an important element in writing and world-building but obviously wasn't something the New 52 was all that concerned about, at least in some respects.

I know there are some fans who care more for characters on a conceptual or potential level, but just seems surface-level rather then the real meat of the character. It's what drove the Silver Age but only really clicked with the maturity, continuity, and ongoing stories of the Bronze Age and Post-Crisis era.

The only thing they didn't restart was the green lantern history, which they specifically stated they weren't going to do. Everything else was rebooted. So you can think it was a case of both all you want. But the fact that rebirth is currently doing worse then new 52 at it's current state says it's wasn't.

Batman also wasn't as rebooted as other properties, since Batman Inc. was still running, which necessitated keeping more Batman continuity and somehow trying to justify four Robins within a five-year timeline.

Conveniently though the high-profile diverse Batgirl was left out.

Rebirth isn't currently running.

No, their issues were worst because they believed POC would be perfectly fine reading POC's as just members on a team, and they wondered why the comic book market at that time was over 86% white males over the age of 28.

Both DC and Marvel realized they were doing terrible, it wasn't just a DC thing. It was just that DC execution with new 52 was horrible, while Marvel created ANAD which is pretty self explanatory.

Which is also very surprising when you think about the gatekeeping that some classic fans and comic book shops do.

I think diversity was much more visibly driving ANAD Marvel.

You can focus on all the diverse titles New 52 had at the launch but I think they were not as emphasized or as overwhelming compared to the books about young, straight, white guys.

[leo619]

I think we should "agree to wait and see."

You can think what you what, but that applies to you. Don't try to tell me what I should/should not be doing.

I really doubt Cyborg being a founder opened up any doors to more diversity in the Justice League (and, again, seems like there was more in the Rebirth era).

That's because you don't view diversity as important as others, which is fine. But the fact that the founding members is no longer all white is a HUGE improvement.

It we're going to point to anyone for that, it would probably be John Stewart.

John Stewart would have been fine as well, but let's not pretend that the backlash to John Stewart being a founding member over HAL (unless they both became founding members at the same time.) would have
been way stronger then the current backlash at MM. They choose MM for a reason, he was seen as the most expendable (though it still doesn't make sense to me to not just include both MM and Cyborg. I don't see the reason why it needed to specifically be 7)

I think an average arc for Geoff Johns is pretty weak. What was his weakest arc? "The Villains Journey?"

I've just never seen much praise for that arc.

HAHA I so agree to disagree. An average arc by Geoff Johns is still miles ahead from the greatest arc from someone like Wilson who did Earth 2 World's End. There's no comparison. His weakest
arc from what I've read is at most sub par, definitely not horrible by any means. Hmm...I'd say The Villains Journey. I liked origin much more than the villains journey to be honest.

And again, just because it doesn't reach world wide acclaim does not mean it's horrible. It's like you guys don't think C's don't exist in school, which is where a lot of these "horrible books" lie lol.

I care about characters, and I believe a characters history and their development and how that informs their personalities makes them who they are, and enriches whatever concepts or ideas you come up for with them. That is almost universally seen as an important element in writing and world-building but obviously wasn't something the New 52 was all that concerned about, at least in some respects.

I know there are some fans who care more for characters on a conceptual or potential level, but just seems surface-level rather then the real meat of the character. It's what drove the Silver Age but only really clicked with the maturity, continuity, and ongoing stories of the Bronze Age and Post-Crisis era.

And now we're FINALLY getting somewhere. No one is trying to change your mind or convince you on what you think is important for a character. You have specific areas that you primary look for, like character story, history, and continuity.
And if you feel looking at a character at conceptional level/potential level is surface level, that's certainly your right to believe so. My main goal was trying to illustrate to you that what you find as important is not what everyone find as important. For example, I agree that establishing a character's history is important. We both agree that
it is an essential part of character building. But we're we disagree on is the fact that the history needs to be remain the same in order to be interesting/entertaining. If they change the entire history of a character, but that change is executed well for me, then I'm down for the ride. Again, for me, it's about the execution.

I think diversity was much more visibly driving ANAD Marvel.

You can focus on all the diverse titles New 52 had at the launch but I think they were not as emphasized or as overwhelming compared to the books about young, straight, white guys.

That's because Marvel was expanding upon DC, they took what New 52 was trying to do, expand it, improve it, and manipulate it to get it work. But it was still Marvel copying from what DC's New 52 plan was.

Again, I'm not saying Diversity was the only main factor for setting up the new 52. No one is making that argument. But one of the reasons for the new 52, according to DC, was to expand diversity. And while their execution was bad, and it wasn't the overarching theme like ANAD, it was still a step in the right direction.

[skyvolt2000]

I think diversity was much more visibly driving ANAD Marvel.

You can focus on all the diverse titles New 52 had at the launch but I think they were not as emphasized or as overwhelming compared to the books about young, straight, white guys.

Marvel promoted those books beyond the released and issue 1.

DC did not. Your company has Static and most folks did not know he had a book. Including those who WORK in the industry like Larry Stroman.
You know it's bad when Batman fansites that cover ALL Batman related books STOP reviewing Batwing.

I can go to Barnes & Nobles and find those Marvel POC lead books. Heck the SAME with Lion Forge, IDW and others.

Yet aside from Duke Thomas & Michael Cray-can't do that with DC. Cyborg, Black Lightning & Jaime Reyes aren't there. 3 guys on tv shows. Something is not right.

[iron chimp]

Marvel promoted those books beyond the released and issue 1.

DC did not. Your company has Static and most folks did not know he had a book. Including those who WORK in the industry like Larry Stroman.
You know it's bad when Batman fansites that cover ALL Batman related books STOP reviewing Batwing.

I can go to Barnes & Nobles and find those Marvel POC lead books. Heck the SAME with Lion Forge, IDW and others.

Yet aside from Duke Thomas & Michael Cray-can't do that with DC. Cyborg, Black Lightning & Jaime Reyes aren't there. 3 guys on tv shows. Something is not right.

Theres a doom patrol tv show but no book - means nothing. The only thing not right is that people consuming all this stuff in games / tv / film / cartoons never show up for the comics ever.

[Frontier]

You can think what you what, but that applies to you. Don't try to tell me what I should/should not be doing.

Fair enough. I just think it's a more reasonable way of looking at things as they are right now, especially for an ongoing comic book.

That's because you don't view diversity as important as others, which is fine. But the fact that the founding members is no longer all white is a HUGE improvement.

I believe diversity is important.

I can see where the founding members no longer being all white is important but there have been numerous critiques as to why Cyborg may not have been the best choice on that front (and not all having to do with his former Titans status).

John Stewart would have been fine as well, but let's not pretend that the backlash to John Stewart being a founding member over HAL (unless they both became founding members at the same time.) would have
been way stronger then the current backlash at MM. They choose MM for a reason, he was seen as the most expendable (though it still doesn't make sense to me to not just include both MM and Cyborg. I don't see the reason why it needed to specifically be 7)

I think people would have been fine with John taking Hal's slot after he left the League in the 2nd arc, especially since he was still running around in the ongoing GL book.

HAHA I so agree to disagree. An average arc by Geoff Johns is still miles ahead from the greatest arc from someone like Wilson who did Earth 2 World's End. There's no comparison. His weakest
arc from what I've read is at most sub par, definitely not horrible by any means. Hmm...I'd say The Villains Journey. I liked origin much more than the villains journey to be honest.

Well, yeah, if we're comparing it to World's End it definitely comes off better, but that's an easy comparison .

I thought The Villains Journey was better if only because Johns seemed to be settling into the title more, even if there were still some characterization issues. I think it wasn't until Thrones of Atlantis that he really found his groove on the title.

And again, just because it doesn't reach world wide acclaim does not mean it's horrible. It's like you guys don't think C's don't exist in school, which is where a lot of these "horrible books" lie lol.

Well, a C for an initial start for a Justice League reboot title isn't high praise in my opinion.

And now we're FINALLY getting somewhere. No one is trying to change your mind or convince you on what you think is important for a character. You have specific areas that you primary look for, like character story, history, and continuity.

And if you feel looking at a character at conceptional level/potential level is surface level, that's certainly your right to believe so. My main goal was trying to illustrate to you that what you find as important is not what everyone find as important. For example, I agree that establishing a character's history is important. We both agree that
it is an essential part of character building. But we're we disagree on is the fact that the history needs to be remain the same in order to be interesting/entertaining. If they change the entire history of a character, but that change is executed well for me, then I'm down for the ride. Again, for me, it's about the execution.

Good execution is important, I just think it's more difficult to completely uproot a character's history even if you are able to tell good stories with them after a reboot, but to each their own.

That's because Marvel was expanding upon DC, they took what New 52 was trying to do, expand it, improve it, and manipulate it to get it work. But it was still Marvel copying from what DC's New 52 plan was.

I dunno. I don't really see a lot of the New 52 in ANAD Marvel beyond dramatic character revamps and more diverse titles, but it's so different that I wouldn't even compare the two.

Again, I'm not saying Diversity was the only main factor for setting up the new 52. No one is making that argument. But one of the reasons for the new 52, according to DC, was to expand diversity. And while their execution was bad, and it wasn't the overarching theme like ANAD, it was still a step in the right direction.

If we're talking strictly on trying to have more diverse titles out there, then I will say that was a good direction for DC to move towards.

I can go to Barnes & Nobles and find those Marvel POC lead books. Heck the SAME with Lion Forge, IDW and others.

Yet aside from Duke Thomas & Michael Cray-can't do that with DC. Cyborg, Black Lightning & Jaime Reyes aren't there. 3 guys on tv shows. Something is not right.

I've been to a few Barnes and Noble and I've seen the John Semper Cyborg trade, Black Lightning: Year One, and I think the first volume of the Rebirth Blue Beetle run.

I think I've even seen that Vigilante mini.

[ChrisG]

aquaman and friendly neighborhood spiderman continue to drop in digital sales that may lead to cancellation

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