February 2019 sales

[Timothy Hunter]

It's hard to learn anything if you keep tossing out nonstop Batman books.

He just plugs the holes-he's not the 100% solution.

I looked on Amazon Kindle a few weeks ago-if it was not for the butchering of Wally West & Titans (AKA Heroes in Crisis), Doomsday Clock & Batman-DC would have been left out of the top 100 for Kindle. Meanwhile every Marvel female not named X-23 was there and every single one of them BEAT Batman. Shuri beat him twice with 2 issues in the top 50.

You can build up Batman and his entitlement friends all you like but you are losing the war.

Those ticked off Vixen, Jason Rusch, Tim Drake, JSA, Legion, John Stewart, Wally West (BOTH versions) and others are the ones who are walking away.
How hard is it to do a Vixen mini? Or Tim Drake mini?
How hard is it to do a 12 part JSA reunion that does not need some long delayed event.
Couldn't Silencer last till issue 25?

Can we get DC Showcase back? Something to show new talent and give stories to those folks long for? Even if it's for only 12 issues?
I don't need 10 Batman (not his supporting cast mind you) books. I see enough of them collecting dust at the library or in bins.

Give 4 high quality Batman lead books. Lets start building up everybody else. Cassandra Cain had a book for 6 years for a REASON. So did Bart, Tim & Conner. Dc needs to get back to that and less "look at me I want attention by ruining Titan franchisee AGAIN"

You've completely convinced me. As of late, I've become too much of a DC-optomist. Because of the relative quality of Rebirth in comparison to the majority of the New Fifty Two and even a lot of post Final Crisis DC.

[leo619]

I specifically said he didn't debut in this decade, but this is the decade in which he skyrocketed and he's a good match for it. A sarcastic meme-generator with disregard for tradition? That's my generation and the one behind me (I'm 29) to a T and the box office agrees. I mean that with equal parts praise and vitriol, but it stands. Miles has just begun to bleed into cross-media saturation. He's popular, but I still think Deadpool has him licked in terms of the general audience who are only recently getting to know the guy.

Miles also didn't literally come out five years ago, he was created in 2011. Moreover, you forgot Steel for black superheroes having a film made after them. Hancock and Spawn as well if we're being a touch more broad and going outside the Big Two. I'm not sure I'd call Into the Spider-Verse a solo film either, considering he shared it with 5 other Spider-Folk, one of which being the Peter Parker incarnation. Your facts need some work.

The market is delicate. Does it need work? Absolutely. Digital is the way to go and Diamond is a hurdle that needs to be bounded. Reduced cost for publication and distribution allows for books to survive on smaller sales figures which is where a lot of B-Listers should live. They can see print if overwhelmingly successful or in collected format, but print isn't the way to go if you want to turn a profit on Electric Warriors. It's just not.

I absolutely agree the market needs to change, but frankly, you're posting false facts and pushing so hard in one direction that it does discredit your argument. Nevertheless, I believe it's best we agree to disagree. Have a good one and keep reading, dude. It's a fine hobby and I'm glad we both seem to care about it enough to post on forums regarding its future.

No one is saying that Miles is more popular than deadpool, but I am saying that Miles is the most popular new character. Deadpool didn't just skyrocketed this generation, he was always a relatively popular character in the comic books and then once superheroes became mainstream, he was inserted in that bandwagon. Just like Iron Man. Iron Man was relatively popular, though not A lister until his movies came out. But that doesn't change the fact he was always a relatively popular character. Deadpool is definitely not new. That's like calling spawn new, which he definitely isn't. To the general audience, many of these heroes they are just getting to know. He's newer in comparison to bronze/silver age heroes yes, but he's barely escape the 80's. He's closer in age to the original dragon ball series then he is to Miles Morales.

In terms of black films made after them, I'm clearly referring to the superhero bubble that many agreed started with Blade. Before that, yes there was black comic book characters that had movies made after them (though hancock was not one of them.) but then inserted the idea that movies with black lead characters couldn't sell, which the drought of black lead movies spoke for itself after that. And yes Into the Spider Verse is definitely a miles morales movie. The movie was centered around Miles Morales, while did a good job showing other characters as a strong supporting cast. Now if people saw their favorite spider man and decided the movie was about them, that's their prerogative, but in terms of the actual writing as well as confirmation behind the entire cast including director and writers, they all say the movie is about Miles Morales.

We're clearly in different viewpoints and and you misunderstanding my points as "false facts" indicate we should definitely just agree to disagree. Enjoy the books that you read.

[Frontier]

I definitely to disagree. Let's just bring up the changes that's no where to be found. Milestone Universe? Gone.

I still have no idea what's going on with Milestone. Last I head there was some legal problems with Dwayne McDuffie's widow.

Earth 2? Gone.

Would kind of be redundant with them bringing the JSA back.

New Superman? Gone.

I miss that book.

New 52 Superman? Gone.

Well, not so much "gone" as "merged."

And, on the positive side, Jon Kent proved a more viable IP element then a lot of the New 52 stuff.

Wonder Woman's New 52 past? Gone.

That was probably going to go one way or another after the movie did so well. I haven't met many Wonder Woman fans who actually miss it.

Nu Wally? Becomes "Wallace" and kicked off to teen titans with little screen time and almost completely MIA from the flash comic.

Isn't that kind of for the best? I mean, if he's in The Flash book it's pretty much just in a sidekick role as Kid Flash. At least in the Titans he's an equal member of the team (and that's not getting into Williamson's issues with writing him).

Cyborg? Quickly losing his founding father status so the Justice League original founders can return to the all white league and a alien.

Well, with or without Cyborg the League's not all-white right now since we've got a Latina Hawkgirl and a black GL on the team.

I think the JL movie failing pretty much put the death knell in Cyborg's founding status becoming iconic enough to keep.

Barbara? Batgirl again.

The New 52 did that to begin with.

I can go on and on and on. Rebirth has shifted the status quo mostly back to pre-52 stages, and the remaining concepts our being pushed away/ending at different rates.
Yet that has done nothing to fixed sales, and only partially appease the classic fanbase because it's not exactly like how pre-52 use to be currently. The writing on the wall
clearly shows the classic fans are not going to save this industry, and instead of trying to bring bold concepts both outside and inside comics, they rather return to the 1960's
until they go out of business. So I have no sympathy for them when they do.

Rebirth was a good creative and sales spike for DC but for a variety of reasons it wasn't sustainable both conceptually and financially and that translated to sales, just as it did for the New 52.

Earth 2 actually had great sales for a while. From Robinson introduction run all the way through Taylor run which included Val Zod, Aquawoman and more. It wasn't until world's end came in, with that specific writer, where sales started to go down hill.
Yet classic fans try to blame it on the series as a whole where it only takes a little research to see that one specific writer crashed the series.

Wouldn't classic fans have just complained about the fact that it wasn't their JSA?

And people don't care about AU's? Miles Morales says hi, who easily the most popular new hero in the last decade.

Miles was basically in the same boat as the JSA. He was a popular property from another Earth that jumped ship during an event.

Now don't get me wrong, I will be the first to say that the new 52 was filled with bad execution. Earth 2, Statis Shock, The later Cyborg books, and more are huge testaments of that. Yet instead of blaming the execution like folks should, people blame the concepts as it that was causing the sale problems when it's clearly not.

I think it was a good mix of faulty execution and concepts.

Like, people praised Grayson, which was a pretty sharp change for the Nightwing character, but not many people praised the Amazon "rape camps" or being so unlikeable, all the issues with Lois Lane, Scott Lobdell's take on Starfire, practically everything about the Teen Titans in the New 52, etc.

If something from the New 52 was well-received it generally stuck, like Aquaman's new history and certain characters like Simon Baz, Jessica Cruz, and such.

Rebirth is going through the same execution issue. Justice League Odyssey started with so much hype, and featured arguably one of the most popular artists out there. What happens? They drop both the artist and the writer in literally 6 issues, (artist in like 2), because of back end decisions that caused sejic to have to draw the book all over again.

Outsiders? They literally had a detective tec arc that was supposed to transition into a team series. What happened? The book got delayed by freaking 8 months because they had to account for an event.

These stories, these issues, is what help causes DC to flounder. The same execution mistakes we see in new 52, from static shock editor, artist and writer fighting after the first 3-4 months, we see now in Justice League Odyssey with the artist and editorial staff having conflict. But no one wants to talk about that. Because the classic fans are still "largely" getting what they want, even though it's not a full transition just yet.

Classic fans are not "largely" getting what they want. I mean, have you seen all the complaints about the current Batfamily and Heroes in Crisis?

The Ultimate Universe itself, not just Miles Morales was popular. So again, I disagree. What killed the Ultimate Universe? Ultimatum where heroes got wiped out all over the place. What killed Earth 2? World's End. Both AU featured the exact same problem and yet kept the same writers that eventually started the destruction of said AU. Yet even with that, Miles Morales persevered. Also Miles Morales was not losing ground, his sales always stayed at the same level as Peter Parker had as Ultimate Spider Man, and continues to sell well today. So not sure where you're getting that from.

And the JSA will, thankfully, survive Earth-2.

Exactly, but that's why it's funny when I constantly see articles and classic fans going around saying how rebirth helped saved the DC universe. It didn't, because the problem wasn't reverting to the status quo, the problem with DC from new 52 is the same problem with DC in rebirth, and that's execution.

I think Rebirth generated a lot of positive goodwill both creatively and character-wise, but DC bungled the execution on that as well.

They use gimmicks and events to give spikes in sales instead of focusing on the foundational flaws that DC has and trying aggressively to reach new markets.

Every comic company does this pretty much.

I mean, look at Marvel. They do every gimmick in the book to try and get more sales.

And the loyal customers were/is hijacking the industry to begin with. One of the big reasons the new 52 was introduced was because before that, over 88% of the comic book readership were white males over the age of 28 that majority wouldn't support diverse books at that time.

So the new 52 was introduced, designed to bring in the diverse cliental desperately needed to keep the industry alive, and what did they do? Well I've already talked about how flawed their execution was.

I don't think the New 52 was specifically designed to do that. Obviously there were diverse books but I think the desire for a reboot and a sales spike had more to do with it

I mean, when you look at how certain things were handled I'd say DC was aiming a lot at while males for the initial New 52...I mean, younger, single, attractive white male heroes? Sexpot Starfire? The first issue of Catwoman? Superman and Wonder Woman? Heck, just compare the approach to New 52 Wonder Woman to Rebirth Wonder Woman, and I'd say the former was much more aimed at male readers.

In the end, the new 52 wasn't entirely alienating the customer, nor does DC need to entirely alienate the classic readership. The problem is the many classic readers wants ALL of the major dc properties to cater to the classic demographic, and it's that hijack ideology as to what's killing this industry. This industry is not allowed to flourish and grow like it needs to because it needs to keep the comic book shops and classic fandom happy, so all three can hold their hands together while this market crashes and burn.

Isn't that true for the New 52 fans side as well?

[kingaliencracker]

I think what fans need to understand, and what old-time fans have tried telling everyone, is that New 52 was a gimmick that boosted sales temporarily before they began to slide into their pre-52 numbers, while Rebirth was a gimmick that boosted sales temporarily before they too began to slide into their pre-52 numbers. We used to get a tonal, directional shift in comics every 20 years or so but now it feels like we're getting it every few years. To me, it's a definite sign of the failing industry.

I will say, however, that in defense of Rebirth DC completely botched the momentum of it almost immediately. That's not a strong defense, because I still don't believe Rebirth is the answer any more than I felt New 52 was the answer. But DC definitely put more effort into New 52 than they did Rebirth.

[Frontier]

I think what fans need to understand, and what old-time fans have tried telling everyone, is that New 52 was a gimmick that boosted sales temporarily before they began to slide into their pre-52 numbers, while Rebirth was a gimmick that boosted sales temporarily before they too began to slide into their pre-52 numbers. We used to get a tonal, directional shift in comics every 20 years or so but now it feels like we're getting it every few years. To me, it's a definite sign of the failing industry.

I will say, however, that in defense of Rebirth DC completely botched the momentum of it almost immediately. That's not a strong defense, because I still don't believe Rebirth is the answer any more than I felt New 52 was the answer. But DC definitely put more effort into New 52 than they did Rebirth.

It felt like they were putting a lot of effort into Rebirth, but the momentum really only carried it for a year.

I'm not sure if that says something about the initiative as a whole or DC themselves just absolutely bungling the execution.

But when you the Manhattan mystery going nowhere for so long and books not being as relevant to it as advertised...and Doomsday Clock taking so long on-top of that to return the JSA and Legion, or Young Justice only coming back because of Bendis, and how mishandled Wally's been...DC really didn't handle it as well as they could have.

[kingaliencracker]

It felt like they were putting a lot of effort into Rebirth, but the momentum really only carried it for a year.

I'm not sure if that says something about the initiative as a whole or DC themselves just absolutely bungling the execution.

But when you the Manhattan mystery going nowhere for so long and books not being as relevant to it as advertised...and Doomsday Clock taking so long on-top of that to return the JSA and Legion, or Young Justice only coming back because of Bendis, and how mishandled Wally's been...DC really didn't handle it as well as they could have.

What it really feels like to me is that New 52 was Didio's and Lee's baby, while Rebirth was Johns' baby, but at the end of the day Didio/Lee are still in charge. Therefore, their effort or momentum into Rebirth was never going to be as strong as New 52.

[Robanker]

What it really feels like to me is that New 52 was Didio's and Lee's baby, while Rebirth was Johns' baby, but at the end of the day Didio/Lee are still in charge. Therefore, their effort or momentum into Rebirth was never going to be as strong as New 52.

This has largely been my understanding as well.

[Frontier]

What it really feels like to me is that New 52 was Didio's and Lee's baby, while Rebirth was Johns' baby, but at the end of the day Didio/Lee are still in charge. Therefore, their effort or momentum into Rebirth was never going to be as strong as New 52.

I think a lot of the positive elements of Rebirth came from Johns' oversight, and you can kinda tell when he left and Didio started having more creative control again.

[Robanker]

I think a lot of the positive elements of Rebirth came from Johns' oversight, and you can kinda tell when he left and Didio started having more creative control again.

It really did feel like dad left the room and now the rules were off, didn't it?

[Dred]

It's preposterous to say this is anything like the pre-flashpoint days. Hell, Superman isn't even the same because it's primarily focused on a character who debuted in the New 52 era -- Jon Kent! It's funny how people forget that. Tell me where Chris Kent is if you want to talk about Pre-Flashpoint mattering. Superman never even mentioned his now erased from existence adopted son.

Wonder Woman is the only one who even comes close to really enforcing the Pre-Flashpoint continuity over the New 52 one, and even then Rucka has outright said there's a ton of stuff he just couldn't change for it.

I guess Wally West counts but let me list the number of ongoings Wally West is in or solicited to be in for the next 3 months:

_______

Wow that's totally different from the New 52.


Also, and I can't stress this enough, how in the world is the New 52 bucking the 60s era standard? The New 52 literally eliminated more minority and modern characters than anything that has ever happened before. It rebooted the universe to a state where the only thing that mattered was the Satellite JL era. It was the brainchild of two men who only care about the Silver Age iterations of the characters. Pre-Flashpoint had at least some things that progressed the universe forward. How is Wallace West, reverting Wally back to his status in the 1960s as Barry's sidekick, some bold new forward thinking strategy not stuck in the 60s? How can that possibly be your example? The Flash still being about a straight white man from the 60s forever isn't really a bold step forward. Repeat this for Batman, Superman, Green Lantern...

[Frontier]

It's preposterous to say this is anything like the pre-flashpoint days. Hell, Superman isn't even the same because it's primarily focused on a character who debuted in the New 52 era -- Jon Kent! It's funny how people forget that. Tell me where Chris Kent is if you want to talk about Pre-Flashpoint mattering. Superman never even mentioned his now erased from existence adopted son.

He's Lor-Zod now (pre-requisite Assam grown)...

Wonder Woman is the only one who even comes close to really enforcing the Pre-Flashpoint continuity over the New 52 one, and even then Rucka has outright said there's a ton of stuff he just couldn't change for it.

Like the "daughter of Zeus" thing, obviously.

Not that there aren't differences now...a completely different dynamic with Cheetah, Steve Trevor and Etta Candy are younger (and Steve is Diana's main squeeze again), Ares is a little different, although the Amazons are pretty much back to their Post-Crisis selves.

[Dred]

He's Lor-Zod now (pre-requisite Assam grown)...

Like the "daughter of Zeus" thing, obviously.

Not that there aren't differences now...a completely different dynamic with Cheetah, Steve Trevor and Etta Candy are younger (and Steve is Diana's main squeeze again), Ares is a little different, although the Amazons are pretty much back to their Post-Crisis selves.

Yeah, otherwise known as Not Chris Kent. They erased Superman's memory of his son and gave him a "true" son to replace him and turned his son into a villain for his "true" son. Totally Pre-Flashpoint biased over here!

With WW, the Amazons being unfucked is the most obvious but he did absolutely throw away the stuff done with the Greek Gods, too, and made them much more similar to their pre-Flashpoint selves. Bending ages and whatnot is par for the course for any era so I'm not going to chalk that up to anything.

[Sacred Knight]

It's preposterous to say this is anything like the pre-flashpoint days.

Not if we're talking tone. Tonally this is dead on mid-to-late-aughts DC. Rebirth and New 52 fans going head to head over this makes no sense. This is neither Rebirth nor New 52-like anymore.

[Dred]

Not if we're talking tone. Tonally this is dead on mid-to-late-aughts DC. Rebirth and New 52 fans going head to head over this makes no sense. This is neither Rebirth nor New 52-like anymore.

Yeah, but that same tone carried into the New 52. It's essentially all post-Identity Crisis tonewise. Only Rebirth, for a brief period, even pretended to be anything else. That has since been kicked out with immense abhorrence. Rebirth isn't Rebirth anymore and anyone acting like it's the same thing it was pitched as is deluding themselves. We saw the power fall back into the New 52 showrunner's hands.

[Jadeb]

I agree with the last couple of posts. The overall tone and tenor of the books is more important to this discussion than continuity housekeeping. In that regard, Rebirth has been largely wiped away in favor of an approach that already failed.

Financially, DC's future is feeling very bleak to me. It's not just stunts and gimmicks now but stunts and gimmicks that have already lost their luster.