February 2019 sales

[Vordan]

Never once saw a New 52 Superman comic that inspired any hope or humility or significant love for humanity. Half the time he hated his lot in life when he wasn't smooching Wonder Woman or showing off. Just don't get how that's Superman.

And now you’ve abandoned fact for hyperbole.
1E8017DA-483C-4FEC-A1BC-322327AA5741.jpg
Also when you people wax nostalgic about Post Crisis Superman I have to wonder, were you even reading his comics at the time? Because they sucked. Grounded was absolutely awful and it came at the heels of New Krypton which utterly collapsed because of terrible editorial. Grounded gave us this:
30455265-09A3-4FE7-BA75-F061BA09BA17.jpg

[Sacred Knight]

That was probably the strongest era of the New 52 Superman books pre-Truth.

I agree. Doomed, while the concept was interesting, did what most crossovers did: messed up momentum of individual books. After that things started to snowball into a series of unfortunate events.

[Vordan]

The New 52 Era was more miss than hit, but a lot of the criticisms of it are so utterly shallow it’s baffling. Pre-FP DCU was plenty edgy and dark. That was literally what Infinite Crisis was all about. Batman was a dick, Superman was useless, and WW was getting tons of crap for killing Max Lord. This conception of Pre-FP DCU as the idealistic place of “hope and heroism” just doesn’t match the reality. Sales were extremely depressed which is why they had the reboot in the first place. Now I personally think they should’ve just had a line-wide relaunch like Marvel did, but that’s the benefit of hindsight. I’m glad we got the Morrison Action Comics run, after years of Superman being a useless twit is was nice to have a guy who was all about Action. The rape camps were really stupid and edgy but otherwise I enjoyed Azzarelo’s WW, and I don’t think it was that much worse than the JMS WW reboot.

[SiegePerilous02]

And now you’ve abandoned fact for hyperbole.
1E8017DA-483C-4FEC-A1BC-322327AA5741.jpg
Also when you people wax nostalgic about Post Crisis Superman I have to wonder, were you even reading his comics at the time? Because they sucked. Grounded was absolutely awful and it came at the heels of New Krypton which utterly collapsed because of terrible editorial. Grounded gave us this:
30455265-09A3-4FE7-BA75-F061BA09BA17.jpg

Yes, just look at this brooding, dour SOB and the misery he inspires in all those unfortunate enough to enter his orbit.

New 52 Superman 1.jpg

New 52 Superman 2.jpg

New 52 Superman 3.jpg

Morrison was the one who actually implemented the dead Kents, and the resulting Clark wasn't brooding. The method he used to actually kill the Kents (car crash as a result of supervillain manipulation) is darker than I would like, I'd prefer the way he killed off Pa Kent in All-Star. But Clark didn't react to their deaths in a dark way. Much like the pre-Crisis era, he can function just fine without them. He loved his parents and they died, but he still has the great memories of their time together and the lessons they taught to form the foundation of his adulthood. That's life.

I also don't care that it came about during the New 52. Morrison's Action absolutely destroys the Post-Crisis origins (at least MOS and SO, I haven't read Birthright). It may have been better as a new revamped origin tale about his early years than a full blown reboot, but it's on point as far as Superman is concerned.

[Vampire Savior]

The New 52 Era was more miss than hit, but a lot of the criticisms of it are so utterly shallow it’s baffling. Pre-FP DCU was plenty edgy and dark. That was literally what Infinite Crisis was all about. Batman was a dick, Superman was useless, and WW was getting tons of crap for killing Max Lord. This conception of Pre-FP DCU as the idealistic place of “hope and heroism” just doesn’t match the reality. Sales were extremely depressed which is why they had the reboot in the first place. Now I personally think they should’ve just had a line-wide relaunch like Marvel did, but that’s the benefit of hindsight. I’m glad we got the Morrison Action Comics run, after years of Superman being a useless twit is was nice to have a guy who was all about Action. The rape camps were really stupid and edgy but otherwise I enjoyed Azzarelo’s WW, and I don’t think it was that much worse than the JMS WW reboot.

Pre-DiDio DCU was a place of hope and optimism, at least considerably more so. Once DiDio became editor in chief, we got Identity Crisis, and tons of lame crossovers and Crises. Things really haven't changed much since 2004.

Regarding Superman, Post-Crisis Superman is my favorite take on the character, but by the time Flashpoint happened, he wasn't doing anything interesting. He was at his peak during Byrne's run and the triangle era, so basically the mid-80s through the 90s. Aside from Smallville (of which I only like the first couple seasons, but I won't deny its impact), the character really hasn't done anything of note that has been really well accepted since then*. The people working on him keep getting him wrong and screwing things up, like New 52 Superman, Man of Steel Superman, and I don't like Superdad, either.

*EDIT: I guess there was All-Star Superman, but I don't care for it too much myself. I don't really like Frank Quitely's artwork. Superman looks squat, fat, and silly in that book, and I can't really get past that.

[Frontier]

The New 52 Era was more miss than hit, but a lot of the criticisms of it are so utterly shallow it’s baffling. Pre-FP DCU was plenty edgy and dark. That was literally what Infinite Crisis was all about. Batman was a dick, Superman was useless, and WW was getting tons of crap for killing Max Lord. This conception of Pre-FP DCU as the idealistic place of “hope and heroism” just doesn’t match the reality. Sales were extremely depressed which is why they had the reboot in the first place. Now I personally think they should’ve just had a line-wide relaunch like Marvel did, but that’s the benefit of hindsight. I’m glad we got the Morrison Action Comics run, after years of Superman being a useless twit is was nice to have a guy who was all about Action. The rape camps were really stupid and edgy but otherwise I enjoyed Azzarelo’s WW, and I don’t think it was that much worse than the JMS WW reboot.

I think the point isn't exactly that the Pre-FP universe was all "hope and optimisim," just that the tone and stories of the New 52 era weren't that far off from the Identity Crisis era.

I think Azzarelo's WW was fine for what it was but it didn't seem to understand the fundamentals of Wonder Woman like Rucka's Rebirth run established (which was also helped by being much more in-line with the movie).

Morrison was the one who actually implemented the dead Kents, and the resulting Clark wasn't brooding. The method he used to actually kill the Kents (car crash as a result of supervillain manipulation) is darker than I would like, I'd prefer the way he killed off Pa Kent in All-Star. But Clark didn't react to their deaths in a dark way. Much like the pre-Crisis era, he can function just fine without them. He loved his parents and they died, but he still has the great memories of their time together and the lessons they taught to form the foundation of his adulthood. That's life.

I think he was a little more closed off and brooding because of what happened to the Kents. There was a bit of an "edge."

But I agree it wasn't an overbearing trait.

[leo619]

I mean, I think any argument over distinctions is moot since it's not like DC gave fans options between Earth-2 and the classic JSA or allowed them to co-exist like Supergirl and Power Girl do.

Oh no doubt, I'm only saying that Earth 2 was a success under the new 52 banner until a specific writer came in and ruin it. Yet instead of deciding to bring them and the classic jsa back, we don't hear a peep about Earth 2. While classic fans try to pretend the book was always a complete failure when it was anything but that.

Yeah, during the Rebirth run.

Wallace was pretty consistently featured in the book right up until Flash War, as you said.

I'd say he got a lot more panel time and focus then OG!Wally did until Perfect Storm going into Flash War.

OG Wally wasn't even in the universe long until Perfect Storm hit, so that's not really a good comparison. Though again, my biggest issue is the current treatment of New Wally.

But it was a main sticking point of the New 52 roster.

I mean, even the Rebirth standing roster was more diverse by comparison...

The Rebirth Standing Roster didn't have to form the JLA like the new 52 did, since they were focus on establishing the founding members. Once the founding members was established, then more diversity came in, more then the current rebirth roster.

Just from what I've seen people who talk about Cyborg only care about the New 52 in regards to realizing this potential with Cyborg that never actually happened.

They don't only care about that area, but it is DEFINITELY a primary concern, that is true. Because again, the execution was flawed. Great original concept. Given a mother box and tied to the greatest team in the dc universe, there was much to build off of that. But you only need to go to the cyborg thread to see the regular criticism that was tossed at the execution. (E.G. Drawing Cyborg like a 1980's buick= to the classic view instead of something modern and sleak, making him weak and breakable after every 2 hits just to make the villain look strong when he has a freaking mother box, etc)

I don't think many people were actually a fans of the New 52 Teen Titans. Lobdell's tenure on the book is almost universally seen as a huge low point for the franchise aside from, like, one character (Bunker).

And there we go again, correction. It was almost universally seen as a low point for "classic fans." not fans in general. It wasn't the best book by any means, but it wasn't the worst either. No where near as bad as classic fans made it out to be, that's for sure.

Again, there are many different shades of "classic fans."

But I don't think there were very many characters, including minority characters, who benefited from being rebooted back to scratch.

And again, just because you state there are different shades of "classic fans" doesn't change the fact that this viewpoint is very much, a classic fan viewpoint.

It's hard to disassociate the two. Good or interesting ideas on paper are often reviled if they fall improper or bad execution and degrade the value of the concepts.

Now this I can agree with, but that's why it takes a critical eye to realize where the issue actually lies. Another common example of this is bad characters vs bad writers. When a character is written horribly, it's often being treated as the character is bad (especially if the character is newer without a lot of history or minorities or both), but it's clearly evident the character isn't doing anything himself. He's not writing his own story like a self aware 4th wall Deadpool, the story and character interactions are entirely told by the writer itself. Yet often it's the character to blame.

And it's too bad we lost that Mr. Terrific thanks to the New 52 reboot.

The new mr.terrific would have been just fine IF the execution of said book was there. That Mr.Terrific from pre-52 would have ran into the exact same issues if the same writer that wrote the new 52 book wrote the pre 52 mr.terrific.

I'm not refusing to accept the fact, I just don't think this is something that required the New 52 to happen...I mean, most of these are books for characters who already had solo's during the Post-Crisis era, and even in the New 52 I don't think DC supported them that much.

Really? Static had a solo ongoing series at DC (not milestone)? Mr.Terrific had a solo ongoing series at DC? Cyborg had a solo ongoing series at DC? Your statement here is false.

Most of the review threads for Peter J. Tomasi's Superman run, or even some of Jurgens' Action run.

The threads discussing Rucka's Rebirth run in the Wonder Woman threads.

Again, please provide a link.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think he was a little more closed off and brooding because of what happened to the Kents. There was a bit of an "edge."

But I agree it wasn't an overbearing trait.

Closed off maybe, but I don't think he was brooding. At least not in the Morrison run (which is what I'm focusing on), and at least not to the degree of Batman (the poster boy for superhero brooding). Lobdell and others may have made it worse, I don't know.

I'm actually fine with Clark being more closed off, especially in his early years pre-marriage to Lois. He's one of the friendliest guys in the DCU, but I think it's perfectly in character for him to not let people in too close. He's not as comfortable mentoring Kara as Bruce is with Dick, and he doesn't let the people his closest circle of civilian friends know he and Superman are the same person. Bruce at least lets Alfred and Dick, if not others, know the full person. And I think he should have a bit of an edge. Siegel and Shuster designed him to be an edgy dude with balls and conviction. Nothing's worse than a boring Superman without an edge, which is what I largely think of the post-Crisis Superman as. Silver/Bronze age Clark is my favorite, but that combined with the Golden age "edgy social justice seeker" core that Morrison tried is the perfect synthesis to make a modern Superman.

Minus that eye sore of a Jim Lee costume.

[Frontier]

Oh no doubt, I'm only saying that Earth 2 was a success under the new 52 banner until a specific writer came in and ruin it. Yet instead of deciding to bring them and the classic jsa back, we don't hear a peep about Earth 2. While classic fans try to pretend the book was always a complete failure when it was anything but that.

Well, they would also probably need to re-work Earth-2 concept again now that it no longer needs to facilitate being about the Justice Society.

I think the more salient point is that Earth-2 eventually crashed and burned rather then it was absolutely awful, but it also wasn't what the JSA is really about either.

OG Wally wasn't even in the universe long until Perfect Storm hit, so that's not really a good comparison. Though again, my biggest issue is the current treatment of New Wally.

Wally had actually been in the universe fairly long by the time of Perfect Storm, relatively speaking. Like maybe close to a year?

Wallace's current character arc seems true to how Williamson has been developing him and his role on the Titans teams, so I'm not that bothered. But DC mishandling the Flash family is nothing new.

The Rebirth Standing Roster didn't have to form the JLA like the new 52 did, since they were focus on establishing the founding members. Once the founding members was established, then more diversity came in, more then the current rebirth roster.

I don't think the founding status had much to do with it. Even after they got the founding done there really wasn't much more diversity on the team...until, yeah, the Rebirth roster (several years later).

Cyborg really doesn't have many good founding Justice League stories, come to think of it.

They don't only care about that area, but it is DEFINITELY a primary concern, that is true. Because again, the execution was flawed. Great original concept. Given a mother box and tied to the greatest team in the dc universe, there was much to build off of that. But you only need to go to the cyborg thread to see the regular criticism that was tossed at the execution. (E.G. Drawing Cyborg like a 1980's buick= to the classic view instead of something modern and sleak, making him weak and breakable after every 2 hits just to make the villain look strong when he has a freaking mother box, etc)

I don't think classic fans had much to say about Cyborg's design. I mean, his "classic" look was much more sleeker then his original New 52 design.

And there we go again, correction. It was almost universally seen as a low point for "classic fans." not fans in general. It wasn't the best book by any means, but it wasn't the worst either. No where near as bad as classic fans made it out to be, that's for sure.

I mean, I think you would have a hard time finding very many positive opinions about the New 52 Teen Titans at any point. Even from people who were genuinely fans of the New 52.

You are like one of the few, if not only, people I have ever seen who hasn't derided it as much as practically everyone else has.

And again, just because you state there are different shades of "classic fans" doesn't change the fact that this viewpoint is very much, a classic fan viewpoint.

I think it's more of a character viewpoint then a classic viewpoint but I don't subscribe to the notion that everything is a "classic vs. diversity" issue when it comes to discussing this stuff.

Bad storytelling and character decisions transcends that kind of stuff.

The new mr.terrific would have been just fine IF the execution of said book was there. That Mr.Terrific from pre-52 would have ran into the exact same issues if the same writer that wrote the new 52 book wrote the pre 52 mr.terrific.

The point still stands he wasn't written near as well or utilized near as effectively as Post-Crisis Mr. Terrific, who the criticisms for a solo book for him with that writer would probably be just as salient because of how well he was handled in the Post-Crisis state.

Really? Static had a solo ongoing series at DC (not milestone)? Mr.Terrific had a solo ongoing series at DC? Cyborg had a solo ongoing series at DC? Your statement here is false.

I think the idea that the New 52 opened the door to these ongoings is also false.

(plus, these ongoings weren't good, so...)

Again, please provide a link.

I think it would be pretty easy to find them if you looked at the threads I cited.

Closed off maybe, but I don't think he was brooding. At least not in the Morrison run (which is what I'm focusing on), and at least not to the degree of Batman (the poster boy for superhero brooding). Lobdell and others may have made it worse, I don't know.

I think he was a little brooding under Morrison. I mean, his Superman had "attitude," and Clark was nice enough but he felt a little disconnected when he interacted with people sometimes.

But that might just be me.

I'm actually fine with Clark being more closed off, especially in his early years pre-marriage to Lois. He's one of the friendliest guys in the DCU, but I think it's perfectly in character for him to not let people in too close. He's not as comfortable mentoring Kara as Bruce is with Dick, and he doesn't let the people his closest circle of civilian friends know he and Superman are the same person. Bruce at least lets Alfred and Dick, if not others, know the full person. And I think he should have a bit of an edge. Siegel and Shuster designed him to be an edgy dude with balls and conviction. Nothing's worse than a boring Superman without an edge, which is what I largely think of the post-Crisis Superman as. Silver/Bronze age Clark is my favorite, but that combined with the Golden age "edgy social justice seeker" core that Morrison tried is the perfect synthesis to make a modern Superman.

I agree Superman being closed off to a degree is part of his character. How that is applied is all up to the writers.

I like a Superman who's edge only really comes out when you tick him off or things are really dire, because that just makes it stand out all the more to me.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think he was a little brooding under Morrison. I mean, his Superman had "attitude," and Clark was nice enough but he felt a little disconnected when he interacted with people sometimes.

But that might just be me.

It may just be a matter of taste. But I think he should lose the attitude as he grows older and gains more wisdom and power.
I view the New 52 Superman and All Star Supes as the same guy, just at different periods in his life. But it's absolutely fitting for a younger Clark just starting out, and gives him more of a character arc, IMO. He should never quite lose the attitude or convictions, just settle down a bit.

I agree Superman being closed off to a degree is part of his character. How that is applied is all up to the writers.

I like a Superman who's edge only really comes out when you tick him off or things are really dire, because that just makes it stand out all the more to me.

That would work better for an older Superman. But swinging the pendulum too far and getting rid of his edge too much runs the risk of the Big Blue Boy Scout/Naive Farm Boy.

And I've come to really hate that take. So New 52, at least at first, was a breath of fresh air.

[Frontier]

It may just be a matter of taste. But I think he should lose the attitude as he grows older and gains more wisdom and power.
I view the New 52 Superman and All Star Supes as the same guy, just at different periods in his life. But it's absolutely fitting for a younger Clark just starting out, and gives him more of a character arc, IMO. He should never quite lose the attitude or convictions, just settle down a bit.

All Star Superman felt like standard Superman at the age of his life, but I guess the natural endpoint of New 52 Supes was always in the end or in some form to become the standard Superman (and to a certain extent he was).

That would work better for an older Superman. But swinging the pendulum too far and getting rid of his edge too much runs the risk of the Big Blue Boy Scout/Naive Farm Boy.

And I've come to really hate that take. So New 52, at least at first, was a breath of fresh air.

I like the Big Blue Boy Scout, so obviously we have to agree to disagree on that front .

[SiegePerilous02]

All Star Superman felt like standard Superman at the age of his life, but I guess the natural endpoint of New 52 Supes was always in the end or in some form to become the standard Superman (and to a certain extent he was).

Yeah, I think he was on that path. He even started to lose a bit of the edge around the first arc.

I like the Big Blue Boy Scout, so obviously we have to agree to disagree on that front .

I guess which versions of are Big Blue Boy Scouts are a matter of debate.

If it's All-Star or Bronze age, I love him.

Byrne's...yeah, not so much.

[Frontier]

I guess which versions of are Big Blue Boy Scouts are a matter of debate.

If it's All-Star or Bronze age, I love him.

Byrne's...yeah, not so much.

I think Byrne's Superman's "Boy Scout" status is a tad inflated.

I was thinking more Tim Daly or Jason J. Lewis myself.

[TheCape]

I think the idea that the New 52 opened the door to these ongoings is also false.

Johns liked Cyborg so he probably would have give him a push eventually. Static did have a planned series before the reboot written by Felicia Henderson (her run in TT was pretty much a prologue to it considering how much focus he got there), but it keep getting delayed until the reboot happened and we got the series there but with a completly different premise.

[Frontier]

Johns liked Cyborg so he probably would have give him a push eventually. Static did have a planned series before the reboot written by Felicia Henderson (her run in TT was pretty much a prologue to it considering how much focus he got there), but it keep getting delayed until the reboot happened and we got the series there but with a completly different premise.

I think Static was also planned to be in Nick Spencer's pitched Young Justice book.