February 2019 sales

[leo619]

Would kind of be redundant with them bringing the JSA back.

Not at all, they have completely different stories behind them. That's like saying it's redundant to bring back power girl because we supergirl. The Earth 2 universe spawned into a completely different world than JSA.

And, on the positive side, Jon Kent proved a more viable IP element then a lot of the New 52 stuff.

Agreed.

Isn't that kind of for the best? I mean, if he's in The Flash book it's pretty much just in a sidekick role as Kid Flash. At least in the Titans he's an equal member of the team (and that's not getting into Williamson's issues with writing him).

Except for his role in Titans have been anything but equal. You can tell who's the author's favorite character in the book (Djinn, Robin, and Crush). Besides him being in the titans does not mean he needs to be completely removed from the flash book.
Almost all of Wallace supporting cast is in the flash book, now he has no interaction with barry, no interaction with his aunt, nothing.

Well, with or without Cyborg the League's not all-white right now since we've got a Latina Hawkgirl and a black GL on the team.

I specifically referenced the original founding members, the justice league has regularly have rotating members of minority characters showing in

Justice League. But one of the biggest, rightfully criticized decision is that the "founding fathers" which is often considered the most important members of the Justice League have been white. Cyborg introduction was meant to change that.

I think the JL movie failing pretty much put the death knell in Cyborg's founding status becoming iconic enough to keep.

Agreed.

Rebirth was a good creative and sales spike for DC but for a variety of reasons it wasn't sustainable both conceptually and financially and that translated to sales, just as it did for the New 52.

No one is doubting that Rebirth didn't cause a sales spike. But people were blaming the crashing sales of new 52 on the concepts on new 52, saying reverting back to a more classical DC will save the day. But I have been saying SINCE THE BEGINNING that the issue wasn't new 52 bold attempt, but their execution and that
rebirth classical approach would do nothing to fix that. And here we are, right where we first started.

Wouldn't classic fans have just complained about the fact that it wasn't their JSA?

They have, you only need to look in threads here to see classic fans trashing Earth 2. Still doesn't change the fact that the series itself was a success for 20+ issues until world's end and bennett/Wilson crashed everything to the ground.

I think it was a good mix of faulty execution and concepts.

Like, people praised Grayson, which was a pretty sharp change for the Nightwing character, but not many people praised the Amazon "rape camps" or being so unlikeable, all the issues with Lois Lane, Scott Lobdell's take on Starfire, practically everything about the Teen Titans in the New 52, etc.

If something from the New 52 was well-received it generally stuck, like Aquaman's new history and certain characters like Simon Baz, Jessica Cruz, and such.

I'm not saying all of the concepts released by new 52 was fantastic or universally accepted, but the concepts was not the driving factor for sales decrease. If that was the case, Rebirth, which fits much closer to the classic fan concept desires wouldn't be the same situation new 52 was. And yet it is. Which only goes to show the concepts themselves
were not the issue in regards to sales, it was the execution.

Classic fans are not "largely" getting what they want. I mean, have you seen all the complaints about the current Batfamily and Heroes in Crisis?

Correction, they are not getting everything they want, which has always been one of the biggest problems with classic fans. The fact that the batfamily forum is filled with thread of classic
fans trying to get rid of almost all the diverse characters in the bat family pretty much illustrate good portion why the comic book market won't make it. Sharing is not allowed.

I think Rebirth generated a lot of positive goodwill both creatively and character-wise, but DC bungled the execution on that as well.

Correction, Rebirth generated good will towards the classic comic book fan, that's it. But since the comic book media and forums are mostly controlled by classic fans, that's essentially all people wanted to see. The negative feedback about Rebirth by new 52 fans, new readers and diverse readers were pretty much shut out because it
contrasted with the rosy image of rebirth and the "good ole days" was supposed to represent. So there was definitely negative reactions to rebirth as well, but people refused to listen.

I mean, look at Marvel. They do every gimmick in the book to try and get more sales.

Oh I definitely not saying Marvel doesn't but Marvel tries MUCH harder to reach new markets then DC does, and that's why they have been much more successful in maintaining books for newer characters.

I don't think the New 52 was specifically designed to do that. Obviously there were diverse books but I think the desire for a reboot and a sales spike had more to do with it

We will have to agree to disagree on that, I definitely believe one of the biggest reason for the new 52 was to try and established successful minority solo books seeing as their hands were essentially tied before the new 52.

Isn't that true for the New 52 fans side as well?

Of course not, just look at how many classic fan threads requesting for newer diverse characters to get straight up sent to limbo, removed entirely etc. Now look at how many new 52 fans request for any character to just straight disappear, you almost never see it. Why? Because at least new 52 fans have the decency to not a character that some people may enjoy to disappear just because they themselves may not be interested in that character. New 52 fans have always been about sharing the wealth. Classic fans have mostly been about taking all of the wealth.

[Frontier]

Not at all, they have completely different stories behind them. That's like saying it's redundant to bring back power girl because we supergirl. The Earth 2 universe spawned into a completely different world than JSA.

The main point of Earth-2 was to re-do the JSA for the New 52. The main cast was basically "younger and hipper" versions of the Justice Society without any of the history and stature of the original JSA.

Almost all of Wallace supporting cast is in the flash book, now he has no interaction with barry, no interaction with his aunt, nothing.

I mean, again, not necessarily a bad thing. He doesn't really have the best relationship with Barry.

I specifically referenced the original founding members, the justice league has regularly have rotating members of minority characters showing in

Considering how often the founding members come together (which hasn't been in a while) I don't think founding status really matters much right now.

Justice League. But one of the biggest, rightfully criticized decision is that the "founding fathers" which is often considered the most important members of the Justice League have been white. Cyborg introduction was meant to change that.

And I don't think it worked, for a variety of reasons.

No one is doubting that Rebirth didn't cause a sales spike. But people were blaming the crashing sales of new 52 on the concepts on new 52, saying reverting back to a more classical DC will save the day. But I have been saying SINCE THE BEGINNING that the issue wasn't new 52 bold attempt, but their execution and that
rebirth classical approach would do nothing to fix that. And here we are, right where we first started.

And I still maintain that the New 52 had it's own issues, both conceptually and in execution, that hampered it much the same way.

They have, you only need to look in threads here to see classic fans trashing Earth 2. Still doesn't change the fact that the series itself was a success for 20+ issues until world's end and bennett/Wilson crashed everything to the ground.

So...I was right?

I'm not saying all of the concepts released by new 52 was fantastic or universally accepted, but the concepts was not the driving factor for sales decrease. If that was the case, Rebirth, which fits much closer to the classic fan concept desires wouldn't be the same situation new 52 was. And yet it is. Which only goes to show the concepts themselves
were not the issue in regards to sales, it was the execution.

There's no accurate way to gauge what is or isn't going to be a sales success but I think having critically reviled or disliked concepts or characterization is always going to be a knock against a book.

Then again, "Ric" Grayson seems to be selling, so what do I know?

Correction, they are not getting everything they want, which has always been one of the biggest problems with classic fans. The fact that the batfamily forum is filled with thread of classic
fans trying to get rid of almost all the diverse characters in the bat family pretty much illustrate good portion why the comic book market won't make it. Sharing is not allowed.

Most of the complaints I see in the Batfamily forum is people complaining about the treatment of the diverse characters in the Batfamily.

The only diverse character who seems to stir up argument is Duke (and I guess Harper), but nowhere near as much as Cass or even Steph does.

Correction, Rebirth generated good will towards the classic comic book fan, that's it. But since the comic book media and forums are mostly controlled by classic fans, that's essentially all people wanted to see. The negative feedback about Rebirth by new 52 fans, new readers and diverse readers were pretty much shut out because it
contrasted with the rosy image of rebirth and the "good ole days" was supposed to represent. So there was definitely negative reactions to rebirth as well, but people refused to listen.

I mean, I think "classic comic book fans" is a very generic label that I don't think is as accurate.

Because it's not like Post-Crisis Superman is "classic" anymore then the Golden Age Superman is. Or the 90's Batman versus the Bronze Age, etc.

So I don't think saying the garnering of goodwill was just towards classic fans is quite accurate.

New 52 fans complained but Rebirth was against some New 52 concepts (usually the ones most fans were vocally against to begin with).

Oh I definitely not saying Marvel doesn't but Marvel tries MUCH harder to reach new markets then DC does, and that's why they have been much more successful in maintaining books for newer characters.

I think DC does their part to reach new audiences with their various imprints, kid-centered comics, and attempts at different ways of expanding the market.

We will have to agree to disagree on that, I definitely believe one of the biggest reason for the new 52 was to try and established successful minority solo books seeing as their hands were essentially tied before the new 52.

I doubt it was one of the biggest reasons, but it might have been a factor.

How were their hands tied before the New 52? They had even more active minority heroes in the Post-Crisis era at that point.

Of course not, just look at how many classic fan threads requesting for newer diverse characters to get straight up sent to limbo, removed entirely etc. Now look at how many new 52 fans request for any character to just straight disappear, you almost never see it. Why? Because at least new 52 fans have the decency to not a character that some people may enjoy to disappear just because they themselves may not be interested in that character. New 52 fans have always been about sharing the wealth. Classic fans have mostly been about taking all of the wealth.

I have actually seen plenty of that.

New 52 fans have never struck me as being more open and willing to share then Rebirth fans since they prefer their concepts and takes on characters just as much as Rebirth fans do.

[TheCape]

I mean, again, not necessarily a bad thing. He doesn't really have the best relationship with Barry.

Williamson Wallace is a whiny teenager that mostly is there to criticize, frankly is a blessing that isn't there anymore, especially after the annual. Plus, Glass migth not give him as much attention as the rest, but at least his friendship with Roundhouse make him come across as more sympathetic.

[Vampire Savior]

The tonal shift and focus on characters in peril (Arthur and Dick having amnesia, splitting up established character relationships like GA/BC and Aquaman/Mera, a focus on darker storytelling with Heroes in Crisis/Year of the Villain). DC's been trending closer to New 52 than Rebirth.

I get that you hate Rebirth, but quite frankly we're in a peculiar spot right now where it's not quite New 52, not quite Rebirth. It's more of the stuff people complain was ruined with the New 52 but with Rebirth's status quo.

It's essentially them trying what bombed a few years ago that required Rebirth to restore good will, but post Rebirth; they seemingly learned little.

That's because Dan DiDio is back in charge of DC's direction, and for whatever reason, he's really into stories like Identity Crisis and Heroes in Crisis (personally I think they're both conceptually ridiculous), and the New 52 was pretty much his initiative. Rebirth was Geoff Johns' project. But Johns didn't last all that long being in charge of DC.

[Vordan]

Not if we're talking tone. Tonally this is dead on mid-to-late-aughts DC. Rebirth and New 52 fans going head to head over this makes no sense. This is neither Rebirth nor New 52-like anymore.

Now that I think about it I would definitely agree in part. WW and Aquaman for example are definitely back to the Aughts but I don’t think you can say that about Superman, GL, Batman, or even Flash.

[iron chimp]

Looking at those figures, the only people in the industry who can shift units are snyder, king, dave gibbons (or whichever variant boosted venom), and spiderman. The rest was a complete carcrash across the board

[Rod G]

I feel such vindication knowing King is the only person at DC who pushes units lmao. Good for him.

Anyway, death to the remnants of Rebirth! Course correct this ship, Didio!

I wish you good luck with THAT!

[Vampire Savior]

Looking at those figures, the only people in the industry who can shift units are snyder, king, dave gibbons (or whichever variant boosted venom), and spiderman. The rest was a complete carcrash across the board

I don't think King can shift that many units. He's just writing Batman and an event. But I do give him credit for getting Mister Miracle to sell decently. That is quite a feat.

The same goes for Snyder. His Justice League is selling poorly when you take into consideration that it's Justice League, and when you compare it to Johns' run. It's just that it's Justice League so it is still pushing decent numbers. And prior to that, Snyder was writing Batman and events... so they sold. Though, again, credit where credit is due. He started out his Batman run incredibly strongly with his Court of Owls story. He hasn't done anything nearly as good since, though, and his current reputation is riding on the coattails of that one story from years ago.

[ChrisG]

Now that I think about it I would definitely agree in part. WW and Aquaman for example are definitely back to the Aughts but I don’t think you can say that about Superman, GL, Batman, or even Flash.

especially Aquaman, saw the latest preview, OMG, how is it possible to let them carry on butchering him in this manner.

[iron chimp]

I don't think King can shift that many units. He's just writing Batman and an event. But I do give him credit for getting Mister Miracle to sell decently. That is quite a feat.

The same goes for Snyder. His Justice League is selling poorly when you take into consideration that it's Justice League, and when you compare it to Johns' run. It's just that it's Justice League so it is still pushing decent numbers. And prior to that, Snyder was writing Batman and events... so they sold. Though, again, credit where credit is due. He started out his Batman run incredibly strongly with his Court of Owls story. He hasn't done anything nearly as good since, though, and his current reputation is riding on the coattails of that one story from years ago.

Well yes thats true. Justice league is hardly burning up the racks either. I dont know who marvel have these days but the number of people who can consistently sell 70k to 80k month in month out is miniscule. Rest of them havent had a proper hit between them. 70k sounds nothing either but even that seems a massive mountain these days.

Even walking dead is way down from what it was and i think the current arc is a good one

[leo619]

The main point of Earth-2 was to re-do the JSA for the New 52. The main cast was basically "younger and hipper" versions of the Justice Society without any of the history and stature of the original JSA.

No doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that like power girl who's a different take on Supergirl, Earth 2 can definitely exist along with JSA.

I mean, again, not necessarily a bad thing. He doesn't really have the best relationship with Barry.

and the relationship really went down hill once pre-52 Wally was introduced. Their relationship was approving but once pre-52 wally appeared, they wanted to distant nu wally from his supporting cast. It didn't just magically happen.

[quote]Considering how often the founding members come together (which hasn't been in a while) I don't think founding status really matters much right now.

Seeing as the founding members have almost always been together. (Hal and Cyborg being sent away), I disagree with this.

So...I was right?

We both are right. What you're saying is no different than what I am saying. The only difference is I'm also saying Classic Fans were blaming the cancellation of the sales on the fact it wasn't "their JSA." when it had nothing to do with that.

There's no accurate way to gauge what is or isn't going to be a sales success but I think having critically reviled or disliked concepts or characterization is always going to be a knock against a book.

Oh no doubt, but the problem is when you have an echo chamber like the classic fan comic book medium, what's considered "disliked concepts." is very varied. Just because the classic fandom disliked a certain concept or character, doesn't mean it's a bad concept or character. We again, only need to point to Miles Morales for that. His introduction to the MU caused hell on the forums here, and a award winning movie shut the haters mouth real quick.

Most of the complaints I see in the Batfamily forum is people complaining about the treatment of the diverse characters in the Batfamily.

The only diverse character who seems to stir up argument is Duke (and I guess Harper), but nowhere near as much as Cass or even Steph does.

You only need to look at the first few pages of the batman forum to see otherwise. Which I'll post later in this thread.

I mean, I think "classic comic book fans" is a very generic label that I don't think is as accurate.

Because it's not like Post-Crisis Superman is "classic" anymore then the Golden Age Superman is. Or the 90's Batman versus the Bronze Age, etc.

So I don't think saying the garnering of goodwill was just towards classic fans is quite accurate.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. While there are obviously certain tastes that varies (Barry vs Pre-52 Wally for example.) There's still multiple unifying fronts that is seen among classic fans. Resistance to change and wanting things to stay with the status quo. Resistance to newer characters and especially minority based books. Etc.

Example: Wanting Cyborg to remain as a founding member of the JLA and add diversity to the founding members? - New 52 Fan.
Wanting Cyborg to revert to Titans to remind them of their old days? - Classic Fans.


Of course not all fit in every single category. But the labels are there for a reason. There's an underlying similarity of interest that is seen widely that demographic.

New 52 fans complained but Rebirth was against some New 52 concepts (usually the ones most fans were vocally against to begin with).

Correction, Rebirth was against most characters and concepts of the new 52, and classic fans try to apply their dislike towards concepts/characters
as if it was universally disliked when it clearly wasn't.

I doubt it was one of the biggest reasons, but it might have been a factor.

How were their hands tied before the New 52? They had even more active minority heroes in the Post-Crisis era at that point.

Because it's not about active minority heroes, it's about solo series where they can be main stars, and that was the problem. In the 2000 era before new 52, minority solo series were barely being introduced because of the belief that they couldn't sell, and the very few mini series that was release crashed and burn. New 52 allowed certain characters to raise in importance, and get long lasting solo series. For example, Cyborg mini series under Titans sold like meh, especially at that time, while it took what, 2 years? For JLA cyborg to reach low sales, and once again that was due to execution (which they're barely fixing to this day.)

I have actually seen plenty of that.

New 52 fans have never struck me as being more open and willing to share then Rebirth fans since they prefer their concepts and takes on characters just as much as Rebirth fans do.

I said characters, not concepts. Big difference. Of course if a classic fan prefer pre-52 superman concept, and a new 52 fan prefer new 52 superman concept, they're going to want to see their version of the concept represented, because it's the same character. But you will not see a new 52 fan say "I want Aquaman to go into Limbo." just because he has classic routes.

While you only need to visit this thread to see the "culling" of newer bat characters requesting to be removed.

So yes, there is definitely a difference. And if you don't want to see it, that's on you.

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...at-Family-quot

[iron chimp]

They brought bendis over to try and work his alternate universe spiderman / milea morales magic at dc because all their attempts have been a bust recently.

I prefered nu52 too. Good range of books but by the end it was dead in the water.

[Robanker]

They brought bendis over to try and work his alternate universe spiderman / milea morales magic at dc because all their attempts have been a bust recently.

I prefered nu52 too. Good range of books but by the end it was dead in the water.

Numerous sources have revealed the reboot was done nearly on a whim and a few years in it showed. There wasn't a clear plan it direction, just a desired tone (dark) and some basic guidelines. After that it never seemed like they had a clear direction and never wanted to course correct. I bailed on the launch of the New 52, but some real quality work did come out during it (Johns/Parker Aquaman runs, Grayson, to name a few), but by and large the underlying problem pre-FP still existed and they were still calling the shots.

We're back in that same rut now regardless of Rebirth's attempt to fix the problems because, well, the old captains are back at the helm.

[madmodpoetgod]

Superman and Action Comics sales are decent but yuck for the second issue of Young Justice.

[MajorHoy]

Last time I was at a comic book shop was February 6th, but I'm hoping to get there again this coming Saturday.

What I had bought or should have in my hold file are:

13th - Daredevil #1 (Marvel) - 61,566 copies
43rd - Daredevil #2 (Marvel) - 35,763 copies
60th - Batgirl #32 - 29,839 copies
86th - Invaders #2 (Marvel) - 19,772 copies
101st - Black Widow #2 (Marvel) - 17,583 copies
175th - Hellboy & The BPRD 1956 #4 (Dark Horse) - 8,471 copies
216th - BPRD: The Devil You Know #13 (Dark Horse) 5,878 copies
234th - Project Superpowers #6 (Dynamite) - 5,083 copies
265th - Crimson Lotus #4 (Dark Horse) - 3,717 copies

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/2019-02.html