February 2019 sales

[KC]

Marvel and dc publish well over 100 titles a month between them - the amount of shops carrying every title on the shelves will be miniscule to non existant.

Every store I have been in sells every Marvel and Dc title. The books that don’t sell are then kept in store as back issues.

[MajorHoy]

Every store I have been in sells every Marvel and Dc title. The books that don’t sell are then kept in store as back issues.

And what proportion of ALL the comic book shops across North America / the entire world have you actually been to and evaluated their weekly stock?

While the numbers provided by Diamond to Comichron (and ICv2) are not the be-all and end-all on comic book sales across the universe, and they only show what stores order from Diamond (which the stores normally have to pay for whether they are sold to customers or not), they are the only solid numbers we have to discuss. They are a portion of the total sales equation, but what other numbers do we have? Collected editions don't count the same way because they are after-the-fact: if a series isn't selling well enough in single issues, is it probably more likely or less likely to then be collected into a trade paperback edition at a later date?

[KC]

And what proportion of ALL the comic book shops across North America / the entire world have you actually been to and evaluated their weekly stock?

While the numbers provided by Diamond to Comichron (and ICv2) are not the be-all and end-all on comic book sales across the universe, and they only show what stores order from Diamond (which the stores normally have to pay for whether they are sold to customers or not), they are the only solid numbers we have to discuss. They are a portion of the total sales equation, but what other numbers do we have? Collected editions don't count the same way because they are after-the-fact: if a series isn't selling well enough in single issues, is it probably more likely or less likely to then be collected into a trade paperback edition at a later date?

It makes sense for stores to store everything because they don’t know what the fans who are coming will buy.

The numbers that we have been given are so incomplete when put in context of the whole market that they are not worth discussing seriously unless it is about sales to North American shops.

[MajorHoy]

It makes sense for stores to store everything because they don’t know what the fans who are coming will buy.

Have you ever worked in or talked to the owners of a comic book shop here in north America?
if you had, you'd realize that statement makes NO DAMN SENSE!

Stores that get their comic books through Diamond Distribution (and, as far as I'm aware, Diamond is the ONLY supplier of current single-issue comic books from many of the publishers to stores here in the U.S.) have to pay for what they order, but there is a NO RETURNS policy unless the publishers offer it (and that's usually just for specific issues when that does happen).

That means if a store orders 10 copies of a book, but only sells 2 of those copies, THE STORE HAS 8 COPIES IT PAID FOR LEFT OVER! Do you think stores like paying for multiple copies of books that people don't buy?

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah, but that same tone carried into the New 52. It's essentially all post-Identity Crisis tonewise. Only Rebirth, for a brief period, even pretended to be anything else. That has since been kicked out with immense abhorrence. Rebirth isn't Rebirth anymore and anyone acting like it's the same thing it was pitched as is deluding themselves. We saw the power fall back into the New 52 showrunner's hands.

I disagree. New 52 was not tonally like that period at all. It was something different than what came before as well, and the driving tone was not darkness. New 52's intent was to be more hip, basically. Whether the individual fan was down with that notwithstanding, that was the tone, hip and modern. Not dark as dark could be, which was the general driving theme of circa 2004-2011. It was always significantly less dark than what came immediately pre-Flashpoint. Rebirth then intended to go back to "classic" status quos. Those were the aims and executions of those eras. Both different in their own way than the Identity Crisis-to-Flashpoint era.

[KC]

Have you ever worked in or talked to the owners of a comic book shop here in north America?
if you had, you'd realize that statement makes NO DAMN SENSE!

Stores that get their comic books through Diamond Distribution (and, as far as I'm aware, Diamond is the ONLY supplier of current single-issue comic books from many of the publishers to stores here in the U.S.) have to pay for what they order, but there is a NO RETURNS policy unless the publishers offer it (and that's usually just for specific issues when that does happen).

That means if a store orders 10 copies of a book, but only sells 2 of those copies, THE STORE HAS 8 COPIES IT PAID FOR LEFT OVER! Do you think stores like paying for multiple copies of books that people don't buy?

If you read the thread you would know the answer to that question.


Unsold books are kept as back issues or are put in clearance bins. You should know this. Stores don’t know what customers will walk in and buy so they keep a wide selection of titles.

[leo619]

I don't think Power Girl is a great example since she is still distinctive from Supergirl to the point where she was relatively successfully brought into the main universe.

The classic JSA and Earth-2 as it was can't exist unless you drastically re-worked the concept of Earth-2.

Disagree entirely, the differences between power girl and supergirl is no greater than the differences between Earth 2 and classic JSA. You only need to read Earth 2 to see how drastically different that world is
in comparison to the JSA. Hell, Pre-52 Wally West/New-52 Wally West is less different than either two scenario's, and they exist on the exact same earth.

Their relationship seemed to become more of a thing after pre-52 Wally came back. Their relationship only really started to go downhill once Wallace learned that Barry knew Daniel West was Wallace' dad. He got a lot more panel time in the first 25 or so issues then I think OG!Wally did.

Disagree, the relationship started to expand after new wally got his powers. Though I will agree the first instance of it going down was when Barry knew Daniel West was his dad, but they rebuilt a bit until essentially the flash war arc.

Ironically a New 52 thing .

Definitely not, it happened again during the new 52 for sure, but that's definitely not the only time.

Conversely just because some fans like or are fine with a certain concept or character doesn't necessarily make it less problematic or less of an issue.

And what, Classic Fans are the ultimate judge in determining if a certain concept or character is problematic? Give me a break...

At this point I think people who look at Cyborg's founding status are more fans of Cyborg as a concept then New 52 fans.

Wait what? I'm not sure what you're eluding to here.

It still seems very reductive and generalized.

Agree to Disagree.

I mean, I think in some cases they were. Like, Amazon Rape Camps? The New 52 Teen Titans? So much mythos and history being taken away? I think the majority opinion is that those weren't things that needed to be kept around indefinitely.

Amazon Rape Camps? Certainly! The New 52 Teen Titans, nope. So Much Mythos and history taken away? Nope, again, classic fan talk. So you can keep pretending that this classic fan ideology is the universal opinion of comic book fans if you like,
but I'll keep correcting and letting you know it isn't.

Again, I don't think the New 52 was as much of an impetus for that as you think, especially since those minority-led titles during the New 52...honestly didn't end up being so successful or handled all that well.

And again, we circle back to my original statement of concept vs execution. Just because New 52 as a concept was partially designed to increase diversity, does not mean the execution performed guaranteed them to be successful.
It's as I stated during the entire thread, but that doesn't change the intent and concepts behind the implementation of the new 52. Concepts =/= execution.

Like, did anyone care about New 52 Mr. Terrific? Especially compared to Post-Crisis Mr. Terrific?

People were super excited about Mr.Terrific having his own book, especially since this coming off of the goodwill Geoff Johns did to Mr.Terrific from JSA. And then the execution was delivered that left.... a lot to be desired. There's a reason the writer almost never had a DC project after his Mr. Terrific stint.

The reboot didn't seem like an incentive for more minority-led titles it just seemed like it came out as a byproduct of different publishing initiatives.

DC has specifically stated part of the new 52 initiative was to advance diversity. So I'm not sure why you're refusing to accept this fact.

http://sequart.org/magazine/1324/the...y-the-numbers/

I've seen New 52 fans who wanted Jon Kent gone.

And Steve Trevor or pretty much anything and anyone Greg Rucka introduced in his Rebirth run.

I doubt anyone would want Aquaman in limbo since he's one of the few characters who's New 52 Reboot was unanimously well-liked, especially since it was actually a return to classic Aquaman compared to other New 52 reboots.

I just don't see any real evidence that New 52 fans are more magnanimous then so-called "Classic" fans.

Please indicate links indicating where new 52 fans specifically want jon kent gone. I have not seen that, nor steve trevor.

[Sacred Knight]

I wouldn't mind Jon Kent gone. I mean, I've accepted him, but I wouldn't cry if he disappeared tomorrow. And in the beginning yeah it was because of the New 52 because I in general liked that Superman and was sad to see him go. In that vein, you could substitute any new character in for Jon and I would have held something against that character intrinsically just because of the representation of the ending of an era I didn't want to end. With time its morphed into more than just a "not my preferred era" anymore. Mainly its just I don't like Superman as a biological father in a main canon and likely never will at this point. Its just something to accept as a reality and endure, really. I mean, I'm somewhat enjoying what Bendis is doing with him right now for instance. It still doesn't make me like the concept, but I can follow it.

That's just one window into one mind of a person who doesn't like a certain thing though. Its certainly not necessarily indicative of anyone else but me.

[TheCape]

Please indicate links indicating where new 52 fans specifically want jon kent gone. I have not seen that, nor steve trevor.

Jon was a controversial decisions among Superman fans in general, but New 52 Superman were the most angry about, at least that was the case a year ago, especially because Tomasi put too much focus on him during his run. That probably changed (last time that i checked fans were enjoying Bendis run, but i haven't read anything Superman related since AC 1000), but it definetly was a thing for a while.

[SebastianS]

Every store I have been in sells every Marvel and Dc title. The books that don’t sell are then kept in store as back issues.

This is factually wrong. I have been to some of the biggest, most famous UK comic book stores and they have confirmed they do not keep back issues.

I lived in Argentina for 28 years. You had... 4? 5? comic book stores in the whole country that would get comics from the US, and even then, they would only get those titles their customers asked for (basically, subscriptions).

I lived in France for 6 months back in 2016, and most of the comic book stores I went to offered DC and Marvel and Dark Horse, and what not, but all in French, thus, not counting towards the monthly sales.

I am living in Estonia now, for the last 5 years. I have not been to a serious comic book store here in all that time (In this context, serious comic book store means a store that receives monthly titles from the US).

All the comics I get are through US-based comic stores.

My point? I don't think foreign-based sales are enough to be of any consideration. I might be wrong, for sure, but DC (and Marvel) don't act like they matter, so they probably don't.

[Dred]

I disagree. New 52 was not tonally like that period at all. It was something different than what came before as well, and the driving tone was not darkness. New 52's intent was to be more hip, basically. Whether the individual fan was down with that notwithstanding, that was the tone, hip and modern. Not dark as dark could be, which was the general driving theme of circa 2004-2011. It was always significantly less dark than what came immediately pre-Flashpoint. Rebirth then intended to go back to "classic" status quos. Those were the aims and executions of those eras. Both different in their own way than the Identity Crisis-to-Flashpoint era.

The New 52 expressly and intentionally made the overarching universe more dark. I don't know what you think hip is but stuff like Edgy Superman, Azz Wonder Woman, Batman taking over the entire comic line, the super duper edgy Teen Titans debut, etc etc. Anyone who lived through pre-flashpoint and post-flashpoint can easily point to a line wide grittiness increase. There's a reason their house art style started ripping off the 90s.

[Yoda]

Please indicate links indicating where new 52 fans specifically want jon kent gone. I have not seen that, nor steve trevor.

There's plenty of New 52 fans who would feed Steve Trevor, Jon, and Lois Lane into a woodchipper to get Superman/Wonder Woman back. The fans here aren't like that for the most part, there's some heated posts if you look far enough back, but check out tumblr or twitter sometime. It's not hard to find.

[Sacred Knight]

The New 52 expressly and intentionally made the overarching universe more dark. I don't know what you think hip is but stuff like Edgy Superman, Azz Wonder Woman, Batman taking over the entire comic line, the super duper edgy Teen Titans debut, etc etc. Anyone who lived through pre-flashpoint and post-flashpoint can easily point to a line wide grittiness increase. There's a reason their house art style started ripping off the 90s.

No it didn't. That was not the mission statement. Hell, by very virtue of starting over for the most part, it erased a lot of the most explicitly dark deeds of the decade preceeding it, and that alone made the verse exponentially less dark by default. And it doesn't matter what I or you consider hip. The point is that was their aim, modernization. Whether that was actually reflected to the individual fan is up to the individual fan. It wasn't about explicitly dark stories, which WAS the aim of the mid aughts. That only Rebirth tried to be anything different is a falsehood. I'm not even sure that's the mission statement with this current era, its just that focus crossovers like Heroes in Crisis right now are highly similar to what Identity Crisis started all those years ago. But the New 52 was quite different from that era just like Rebirth was, but in different ways.

[Dred]

No it didn't. That was not the mission statement. Hell, by very virtue of starting over for the most part, it erased a lot of the most explicitly dark deeds of the decade preceeding it, and that alone made the verse exponentially less dark by default. And it doesn't matter what I or you consider hip. The point is that was their aim, modernization. Whether that was actually reflected to the individual fan is up to the individual fan. It wasn't about explicitly dark stories, which WAS the aim of the mid aughts. That only Rebirth tried to be anything different is a falsehood. I'm not even sure that's the mission statement with this current era, its just that focus crossovers like Heroes in Crisis right now are highly similar to what Identity Crisis started all those years ago. But the New 52 was quite different from that era just like Rebirth was, but in different ways.

The mission statement is the same thing it's always been since Identity Crisis. It is Didio's mission statement. He literally has said he doesn't want or like happy heroes. I just don't get how you read things like Superboy, Teen Titans, New 52 superman, Azzarello Wonder Woman and think "oh yes this is modernized!" Nothing was modern about it, not any more modern than it was the year prior. It was just grimmer with darker themes, moodier and angrier characters, and a general harkening back to the 90s but with more focus on "maturity" and I say maturity in the most sarcastic and mocking way possible.

Rebirth tried to be different because, at the outset, it was headed by someone with different line running opinions than Didio. It was fairly obvious. Then Johns lost his power, Didio gained it back, and things went immediately back to the same stuff we've been getting since 2005.

The New 52's DNA is fundamentally the same thing as it was late into Post-Crisis because everything runs through Didio's opinions. New 52 was just what he was trying to do post-Identity Crisis without any of the years of history making it a transition. It just all happened at once, suddenly, and incredibly grimly.

Like seriously, you say the word "modernization." Tell me what that means. I'd be happy to tell you what dark and edgy and mature examples I have. I just want to know what about The New 52 launch was modern where the line wasn't a couple years prior.

[KC]

This is factually wrong. I have been to some of the biggest, most famous UK comic book stores and they have confirmed they do not keep back issues.

I lived in Argentina for 28 years. You had... 4? 5? comic book stores in the whole country that would get comics from the US, and even then, they would only get those titles their customers asked for (basically, subscriptions).

I lived in France for 6 months back in 2016, and most of the comic book stores I went to offered DC and Marvel and Dark Horse, and what not, but all in French, thus, not counting towards the monthly sales.

I am living in Estonia now, for the last 5 years. I have not been to a serious comic book store here in all that time (In this context, serious comic book store means a store that receives monthly titles from the US).

All the comics I get are through US-based comic stores.

My point? I don't think foreign-based sales are enough to be of any consideration. I might be wrong, for sure, but DC (and Marvel) don't act like they matter, so they probably don't.

Every store I have been in has back issues. And that includes some of the most famous stores.

I think when you add up all the stores from across the world it would have an impact on the sales figures.