"Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness
"I am Thou, Thou Art I"
Persona
A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!
Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010
Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362
THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?
I'm not caught up on the thread so apologies if I'm retreading old ground...
To me a Batman that isn't the result of seeing his parents gunned down when he was a child just isn't really Batman. I can get behind doing this with other major characters but the origins of the Trinity in particular are essential to the characters. That's why I liked Julie Schwartz's multiple earths solution.
I do very much see your point and I can almost agree with it. If Superman and Wonder Woman are immortal, I'm almost there. Just can't dig on a DCU without a Bruce Wayne Batman. Create a parallel Earth where Batman is of another color/gender/sexual orientation/first name and I'm down. Personally I still need "Batperson" to come from that night in Crime Alley.
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Yeah, same. I could live with the DCU moving on as Bruce is phased out, but I have little interest in another Batman. Dick as Batman is the only exception...but it's perfectly in character for Dick to carry on the mission as Nightwing bringing his own flavor to things. Nightwing inheriting Gotham I could get behind (beats Bludhaven). Bruce doesn't want Dick to become Batman anyway. Failing that, if we HAVE to have Bruce around and still progress things, have him fall into the Lazarus pit every once and a while...
Tom King wrote a three page Superman story that showed he could remain ageless and still end up in a far future vastly different than the present day ("Black Hole Wars" sounds awesome and I want to read about it). Lois and Jon would still be around. Kara would still be around, she could just be Superwoman with a family of her own. Jimmy's been exposed to so much magic and chemicals that he's probably immortal now lol. Surround them with new locations, supporting characters and villains. Ditto Wonder Woman: maybe she's buried Steve by that point and has had other lovers (men and women) since then, and children. Maybe she's kicking ass alongside Etta Candy's great-granddaughter. Introduce new villains, maybe others have died and others were reformed. What's poor, cursed and immortal Barbara Minerva up to? etc. There's no need to get rid of either of them to progress things.
I want to say, I don't totally disagree with you in the abstract. I would prefer it if we lived in a world where a new generation of characters with their own mantles could be successful. But we definitely don't live in that world. I think we might live in a world where the next generation can inherit the major mantles, while the less major ones shift as time goes on. There'd always be a Flash, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, etc. You could probably change some of the genderization of those names, but otherwise it sticks.
I do disagree with you on the narrative shift from Diana to Donna. I don't think the Wonder Woman name would retire, not so long as man's world is too different and too denigrating of women. So long as men and women are not equal, Wonder Woman is needed. That could actually lead, down the line, to a good story if we ever did stamp out the societal inequality. Retire the name because the cause it stands for has succeeded. Themyscira's champion could forge her own title at that point. But it's certainly not now (which is how I'm imagining the Diana/Donna shift. If the shift happened in some far flung, equal future then cool beans).
But, an obvious one I'm good with that's a name change: Roy was Red Arrow, not Green Arrow. I like that! Fits perfectly, it's different, but harkens to his history. Then they did all those things they did to him once they brought Ollie back. I complain about Wally a lot but Roy got it nearly as bad as him and Donna (Only saving grace is he survived the reboot, otherwise he'd have it way worse). I do think some names should just stick. Flash and Green Lantern have the mantle passing, legacy stuff built into them. It's one of my dreams to one day see The Fastest Woman Alive, Iris West. But I know it's only a dream because she's not some straight white dude from the 60s and she'd make Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent look old. Thus is life, but I think the stories, the company, and its message all suffer for this.
Why is it important that future readers get new stories of Barry Allen in his prime as the Flash, instead of Jay Garrick? I mean by the logic that any Batman that isn't Bruce is a loss, isn't it true that having Barry and Hal for the past 60 years have deprived readers of seeing the "real" Flash and Green Lantern as the main heroes in their prime?
And we definitely need to ensure the next generation of readers aren't deprived of the Dick Grayson as the main Robin or Superman-as-a-boy. We don't want them to be left with Time Drake and Kon-El or Damian and Jon starring in the main universe, right?
But then the guy after Bruce could simply redefine The Batman in the same way. It would have been interesting to see how Julius Schwartz would have approached Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (as well as Green Arrow and Aquaman) in the 1950's if they'd have needed that Showcase relaunch as well.
The problem is Bruce Wayne is just as iconic as Batman himself at this point. His secret identity is one of the few that the average person on the street would instantly recognize. Replacing him in the '50s might have worked, but in the 21st century? Bruce's replacement would always cast the smaller shadow. The best you could ask for are Elseworld, futuristic, and/or Multiverse variations, with the occasional interim Bats thrown in for good measure.
A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!
Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010
Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362
THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?
I do not have an idealistic view of the comic book industry. In fact, especially when it comes to the direct market, my perspective on the industry is very cynical and pessimistic. Also, I am well aware that what I'm vouching for if applied to current circumstances would have lukewarm results to say the least. However, that's not what I'm arguing. I'll elaborate and say that this more "progressive" approach to the DC Universe is the right course of action in an environment wherein the comic book is more stable than it is, which I definitely think is on the table.
A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!
Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010
Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362
THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?