DC Should Have a Policy For Not Bringing Back Heroes Whose Stories Have Ended

[SiegePerilous02]

Not just Superman. I think more classic JLA members have died and come back than haven't. I think of the "Big 7" only Wonder Woman has beat the reaper (though Batman's 'deaths' have never been real ones). That's Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, and Martian Manhunter. Not to mention Green Arrow who was almost Big 7. A re-read of Blackest Night gives us a multitude of formerly dead characters. And this is one of the reasons I'm not bent out of shape about the deaths (or alleged deaths) in Heroes in Crisis. Tom King has explicitly said heroes don't stay dead.

I think Diana died in the Byrne run.

She definitely has died at some point, because she became a Black Lantern.

(Agree with the rest of your post, btw).

[TheCape]

I think Diana died in the Byrne run.

She definitely has died at some point, because she became a Black Lantern.

(Agree with the rest of your post, btw).

She did, it was in Byrne's run and then she was reborn as the godess of truth or something among those lines.


In fact Hypolita remplaced Diana as WW for a while during that time if i remember correctly, around the Morrison JLA era.

[BatmanJones]

I think Diana died in the Byrne run.

She definitely has died at some point, because she became a Black Lantern.

(Agree with the rest of your post, btw).

I almost posted that I probably forgot a Wonder Woman death or two. Thanks for correcting me.

[The Darknight Detective]

Until Dick Grayson started to age in the 70s/80s, it didn't matter what era a story was being told in; our main characters were all around 28 years old and sidekicks stayed sidekicks. I may be remembering wrong but I feel like DC was explicit in explaining back in that era that Superman, Batman, and the like were all around that precise age, no matter which modern era served as the background for the stories.

You're remembering correctly, Bats. In fact, I posted a few Answer Man responses from that era not that long ago here that stated what you just posted.

[BatmanJones]

Okay, so I'm going to elaborate on my original intent of this post:

What I am proposing here is not all legacy characters will eventually take over the roles of their mentors. Some will, (maybe some of the most A-list nowpowered characters certainly, Batman, Green Arrow, Question) but many will mark their own path. Also consider that many of DC's major tier characters are practically immortal -take Superman for instance.

Also do take into account that the duration of the hero hero in real time would be, on average, 40 years (ages 19 to 59, probably even more if they were a sidekick previously. ) Most comic book readers will not even be alive to see two generations of heroes take power.

I'm not caught up on the thread so apologies if I'm retreading old ground...

To me a Batman that isn't the result of seeing his parents gunned down when he was a child just isn't really Batman. I can get behind doing this with other major characters but the origins of the Trinity in particular are essential to the characters. That's why I liked Julie Schwartz's multiple earths solution.

I do very much see your point and I can almost agree with it. If Superman and Wonder Woman are immortal, I'm almost there. Just can't dig on a DCU without a Bruce Wayne Batman. Create a parallel Earth where Batman is of another color/gender/sexual orientation/first name and I'm down. Personally I still need "Batperson" to come from that night in Crime Alley.

[BatmanJones]

You're remembering correctly, Bats. In fact, I posted a few Answer Man responses from that era not that long ago here that stated what you just posted.

Thanks for the backup, Detective. My memory's not so great so I half thought I might have dreamt it.

[SiegePerilous02]

I almost posted that I probably forgot a Wonder Woman death or two. Thanks for correcting me.

You're welcome

I do very much see your point and I can almost agree with it. If Superman and Wonder Woman are immortal, I'm almost there. Just can't dig on a DCU without a Bruce Wayne Batman. Create a parallel Earth where Batman is of another color/gender/sexual orientation/first name and I'm down. Personally I still need "Batperson" to come from that night in Crime Alley.

Yeah, same. I could live with the DCU moving on as Bruce is phased out, but I have little interest in another Batman. Dick as Batman is the only exception...but it's perfectly in character for Dick to carry on the mission as Nightwing bringing his own flavor to things. Nightwing inheriting Gotham I could get behind (beats Bludhaven). Bruce doesn't want Dick to become Batman anyway. Failing that, if we HAVE to have Bruce around and still progress things, have him fall into the Lazarus pit every once and a while...

Tom King wrote a three page Superman story that showed he could remain ageless and still end up in a far future vastly different than the present day ("Black Hole Wars" sounds awesome and I want to read about it). Lois and Jon would still be around. Kara would still be around, she could just be Superwoman with a family of her own. Jimmy's been exposed to so much magic and chemicals that he's probably immortal now lol. Surround them with new locations, supporting characters and villains. Ditto Wonder Woman: maybe she's buried Steve by that point and has had other lovers (men and women) since then, and children. Maybe she's kicking ass alongside Etta Candy's great-granddaughter. Introduce new villains, maybe others have died and others were reformed. What's poor, cursed and immortal Barbara Minerva up to? etc. There's no need to get rid of either of them to progress things.

[Dred]

I think in general it's a shame we cannot sell legitimately brand new characters and concepts anymore instead of re-packaging old ones. At one time, in the Silver Age, Marvel an explosion of creativity that became the foundation of their fictional universe. DC did it in the Golden Age and again in the Silver Age. I think the biggest problem now that prevents new characters in comics from taking off is that comics as a medium are not satisfying compared to other forms of entertainment. Kids have no idea where to find comics, there aren't a lot of kid friendly ones out there for when they do find them, and what kid is going to spend the amount of money we do for something they will finish in 2-5 minutes tops and then be bored again? At this point, the MCU could start churning out brand new characters invented for the films and be guaranteed success because the brand is trusted.

Like, I get what you're saying with Miles Morales. I have zero interest in him because for me Spider-Man is the story of Peter Parker. It's him (or preferably him and his wife) against the world. I'd be more than ok with a new young hero, especially a non-white one, filling the niche he used to fill, just in another identity. But I also know why Spider-Man is a more sure thing for him, and he wouldn't have his success without it. It just sucks that that is the case.

They certainly know who Diana Prince is now though. And you can keep Diana and still have her and the universe progress around her. Why throw away the awesome character who made the awesome name awesome when there is plenty of in-universe reasons for her not to go anywhere? She's probably not the best character for this legacy debate. She's an immortal demi-goddess and isn't going anywhere. Wonder Woman in different time periods (including the far future) is more interesting to me than her retiring in favor of Donna.



We're both arguing for different forms of progression, even if we don't agree on the particulars.

I think it's our wishful thinking scenarios that are irrelevant, because we both know DC wouldn't go for either of them. And not entirely without reason. And neither scenario would save the industry from dying a slow death anyway, because the bigger problem is kids not giving a **** about comics and preferring movies, tv shows and video games for their exposure to these characters

I want to say, I don't totally disagree with you in the abstract. I would prefer it if we lived in a world where a new generation of characters with their own mantles could be successful. But we definitely don't live in that world. I think we might live in a world where the next generation can inherit the major mantles, while the less major ones shift as time goes on. There'd always be a Flash, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, etc. You could probably change some of the genderization of those names, but otherwise it sticks.

I do disagree with you on the narrative shift from Diana to Donna. I don't think the Wonder Woman name would retire, not so long as man's world is too different and too denigrating of women. So long as men and women are not equal, Wonder Woman is needed. That could actually lead, down the line, to a good story if we ever did stamp out the societal inequality. Retire the name because the cause it stands for has succeeded. Themyscira's champion could forge her own title at that point. But it's certainly not now (which is how I'm imagining the Diana/Donna shift. If the shift happened in some far flung, equal future then cool beans).

But, an obvious one I'm good with that's a name change: Roy was Red Arrow, not Green Arrow. I like that! Fits perfectly, it's different, but harkens to his history. Then they did all those things they did to him once they brought Ollie back. I complain about Wally a lot but Roy got it nearly as bad as him and Donna (Only saving grace is he survived the reboot, otherwise he'd have it way worse). I do think some names should just stick. Flash and Green Lantern have the mantle passing, legacy stuff built into them. It's one of my dreams to one day see The Fastest Woman Alive, Iris West. But I know it's only a dream because she's not some straight white dude from the 60s and she'd make Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent look old. Thus is life, but I think the stories, the company, and its message all suffer for this.

[Jon Clark]

Why is it important that future readers get new stories of Barry Allen in his prime as the Flash, instead of Jay Garrick? I mean by the logic that any Batman that isn't Bruce is a loss, isn't it true that having Barry and Hal for the past 60 years have deprived readers of seeing the "real" Flash and Green Lantern as the main heroes in their prime?

And we definitely need to ensure the next generation of readers aren't deprived of the Dick Grayson as the main Robin or Superman-as-a-boy. We don't want them to be left with Time Drake and Kon-El or Damian and Jon starring in the main universe, right?

[Dred]

Why is it important that future readers get new stories of Barry Allen in his prime as the Flash, instead of Jay Garrick? I mean by the logic that any Batman that isn't Bruce is a loss, isn't it true that having Barry and Hal for the past 60 years have deprived readers of seeing the "real" Flash and Green Lantern as the main heroes in their prime?

And we definitely need to ensure the next generation of readers aren't deprived of the Dick Grayson as the main Robin or Superman-as-a-boy. We don't want them to be left with Time Drake and Kon-El or Damian and Jon starring in the main universe, right?

The argument is literally just that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen "redefined" The Flash and Green Lantern and so they're better and more important than Jay and Alan. Not that I agree on them being better.

[Jon Clark]

The argument is literally just that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen "redefined" The Flash and Green Lantern and so they're better and more important than Jay and Alan. Not that I agree on them being better.

But then the guy after Bruce could simply redefine The Batman in the same way. It would have been interesting to see how Julius Schwartz would have approached Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (as well as Green Arrow and Aquaman) in the 1950's if they'd have needed that Showcase relaunch as well.

[The Darknight Detective]

But then the guy after Bruce could simply redefine The Batman in the same way. It would have been interesting to see how Julius Schwartz would have approached Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (as well as Green Arrow and Aquaman) in the 1950's if they'd have needed that Showcase relaunch as well.

The problem is Bruce Wayne is just as iconic as Batman himself at this point. His secret identity is one of the few that the average person on the street would instantly recognize. Replacing him in the '50s might have worked, but in the 21st century? Bruce's replacement would always cast the smaller shadow. The best you could ask for are Elseworld, futuristic, and/or Multiverse variations, with the occasional interim Bats thrown in for good measure.

[Timothy Hunter]

And what happens if readers don’t like the change like when Bart became the Flash? What happens if people use the replacement as a “jumping-off” point and you don’t get enough new readers to replace them? You have a very idealistic view of the industry. I would love to see Dick become Batman for good, or for Kon to take the Superman mantle from Clark, or for Donna to become WW, but it’s always a risk. There are a lot of diehards who will only accept the originals in those roles, or in the case of Barry and Hal the “classics”. I’d love to see Barry marry Iris and retire and Wally to get the Flash mantle back but I’ve long since given up the hope of that happening.

I do not have an idealistic view of the comic book industry. In fact, especially when it comes to the direct market, my perspective on the industry is very cynical and pessimistic. Also, I am well aware that what I'm vouching for if applied to current circumstances would have lukewarm results to say the least. However, that's not what I'm arguing. I'll elaborate and say that this more "progressive" approach to the DC Universe is the right course of action in an environment wherein the comic book is more stable than it is, which I definitely think is on the table.

[Jon Clark]

The problem is Bruce Wayne is just as iconic as Batman himself at this point. His secret identity is one of the few that the average person on the street would instantly recognize. Replacing him in the '50s might have worked, but in the 21st century? Bruce's replacement would always cast the smaller shadow. The best you could ask for are Elseworld, futuristic, and/or Multiverse variations, with the occasional interim Bats thrown in for good measure.

But wouldn't most of those people who recognize Bruce as Batman also recognize Dick Grayson as Robin? So it seems strange that Bruce is iconic, Batman and Robin are iconic, but the Robin most people recognize is now pretty much irrevocably Nightwing.

[The Darknight Detective]

But wouldn't most of those people who recognize Bruce as Batman also recognize Dick Grayson as Robin? So it seems strange that Bruce is iconic, Batman and Robin are iconic, but the Robin most people recognize is now pretty much irrevocably Nightwing.

Two things, though: 1) the average person outside of our hobby is not really that familiar with Nightwing and 2) there's a difference between being an iconic superhero than an iconic sidekick.