DC Should Have a Policy For Not Bringing Back Heroes Whose Stories Have Ended

[KC]

Oh man I finally get to use the annoying argument everyone uses against me when I talk about Wally.

Go read the back issues. There's thousand upon thousands of them. The future is not deprived of Bruce Wayne stories by moving on from him. The only thing it is deprived of is everything BUT Bruce Wayne stories.

Not that moving on means you can never tell a Bruce Wayne story again. Brave and The Bold and JLA Year One happened in the 90s. The majority of Superman's best stories are alternate universe/elseworlds anyhow.

Also, I don't get what you mean by "don't wipe the table on, say, Wally" because, having your way, Barry Allen would've never died because he is "iconic" and we should've never even attempted to move on from him in the slightest. That is your stance. Why make a caveat for Wally?

I know the answer, by the by. Wally's stories were great. Moving on from Barry clearly had a positive outcome the likes of which has never been tried with any other "iconic" title, much less seen. And yet, when it was time for Wally to pass the torch, he passed it backwards to Barry because Wally and Bart made Batman and Superman look too old (Dan Didio's exact words, mind you).

I also find it hilarious as the world becomes less and less bigoted, less and less dogmatic, less and less xenophobic, this all star cast of straight white overlords looks more and more outdated. I expect the industry will fold before it ever becomes truly incongruous, but that really shouldn't be the solution behind it.

The future would be deprived of new Bruce Wayne stories on a regular basis and that's what fans of Bruce Wayne want.

[Dred]

Ah, so it wouldn't be deprived of Bruce Wayne at all. Exactly what I said. It's deprived of an endless stream of Bruce Wayne comics, not just having access to more Bruce Wayne comics than anyone could healthily read through the majority of their lifetime.

It's certainly what Bruce Wayne fans want. I'm not sure how that affects any little thing of what I said. If your reasoning is that Batman consistently sells the best and so the universe should revolve around him, stop at him, and function as a method of supporting him permanently to keep him at the top, then I disagree. I don't think selling the best right now should mean ruining everything else to facilitate it.

Then again, comic industry profit margins are so thin that maybe this was inevitable. The industry started dying in time with Batman's meteoric rise to #1, so it has to latch onto it as the carcass decays. Might've happened to whoever was the most popular when the industry crashed regardless, I suppose. Still creatively defunct.

[Jim Kelly]

There should be a Phantom Stranger comic where he tells the readers about great characters of the past who had a close-ended story. Example: "They call me the Phantom Stranger. Come with me down the corridors of time and gaze upon the life of one Jack Knight, whom men called the Starman . . ." Or: "Welcome again, they call me the Phantom Stranger. Today let us pull back the curtain of memory and review the wierd tale of Paul Kirk, the Manhunter . . . " Or: "I have been expecting you. Yes, men call me the Phantom Stranger and I know the strange stories that shade the lives of those who should not be forgotten. Today we shall explore the odd life of Peter Panda . . . " In each issue, PS would present a brief tale about these characters and then there would be a house ad for the collection where you could get all their stories.

[KC]

Ah, so it wouldn't be deprived of Bruce Wayne at all. Exactly what I said. It's deprived of an endless stream of Bruce Wayne comics, not just having access to more Bruce Wayne comics than anyone could healthily read through the majority of their lifetime.

It's certainly what Bruce Wayne fans want. I'm not sure how that affects any little thing of what I said. If your reasoning is that Batman consistently sells the best and so the universe should revolve around him, stop at him, and function as a method of supporting him permanently to keep him at the top, then I disagree. I don't think selling the best right now should mean ruining everything else to facilitate it.

Then again, comic industry profit margins are so thing that maybe this was inevitable. The industry started dying in time with Batman's meteoric rise to #1, so it has to latch onto it as the carcass decays. Might've happened to whoever was the most popular when the industry crashed regardless, I suppose. Still creatively defunct.

It would deprive fans of new comics about Bruce Wayne. That endless stream is what fans of the character want, they want the option to buy a comic about Bruce Wayne every month and that is a valid thing to want.

That is not what I was saying at all. I was just using Bruce as an example.

[Dred]

It would deprive fans of new comics about Bruce Wayne. That endless stream is what fans of the character want, they want the option to buy a comic about Bruce Wayne every month and that is a valid thing to want.

That is not what I was saying at all. I was just using Bruce as an example.

Does your argument work if there's less Bruce Wayne fans than fans who would buy a non-Bruce Batman comic?

I know that is not the case now, but I'm pretty sure that's why you chose Bruce.

Here's the hilarious thing. You could have both. The problem is not "Bruce Wayne fans want Bruce Wayne comics." The problem is the rest of the universe must conform to Bruce Wayne. Thus, stagnancy.

[Robanker]

Oh man I finally get to use the annoying argument everyone uses against me when I talk about Wally.

Go read the back issues. There's thousand upon thousands of them. The future is not deprived of Bruce Wayne stories by moving on from him. The only thing it is deprived of is everything BUT Bruce Wayne stories.

Not that moving on means you can never tell a Bruce Wayne story again. Brave and The Bold and JLA Year One happened in the 90s. The majority of Superman's best stories are alternate universe/elseworlds anyhow.

Also, I don't get what you mean by "don't wipe the table on, say, Wally" because, having your way, Barry Allen would've never died because he is "iconic" and we should've never even attempted to move on from him in the slightest. That is your stance. Why make a caveat for Wally?

I know the answer, by the by. Wally's stories were great. Moving on from Barry clearly had a positive outcome the likes of which has never been tried with any other "iconic" title, much less seen. And yet, when it was time for Wally to pass the torch, he passed it backwards to Barry because Wally and Bart made Batman and Superman look too old (Dan Didio's exact words, mind you).

I also find it hilarious as the world becomes less and less bigoted, less and less dogmatic, less and less xenophobic, this all star cast of straight white overlords looks more and more outdated. I expect the industry will fold before it ever becomes truly incongruous, but that really shouldn't be the solution behind it.

I'm fine with characters dying, but not "and now they're as dead as FDR." While I dislike Barry returning because he got the Hail Mary of superhero deaths, I'm not against it because there could be new stories to tell. It would have been interesting to have him learning from Wally for a short spell since the latter discovered tons of new applications of their abilities and surpassed his former mentor's speed. There are still stories to tell.

As I understood the concept, however, it's about putting those characters to bed and leaving them there except for, say, flashbacks or elseworlds. I don't particularly care for burning a concept in that capacity. I'm not one for excessive amounts of realism injected into cape comics because the physics and nature of the worlds they inhabit simply cannot translate. I'm fine with a sliding scale of age where things start to lock in (the JLA are in their mid-to-late thirties, the first sidekicks somewhere in their mid-to-late 20s, Tim's generations being late teens and so on). Keep things vague and don't sweat the details. At the end of the day, I'm allowing enough suspension of disbelief so that Superman can pluck someone falling out of the sky and them not deal with Newton's second law of motion severing them against his hyperdense form moving at high speed. Or for him to be bulletproof and shrug off their impact, but able to feel a human being's touch when they hold his hand or slap him for dramatic effect.

I love these characters and I feel they should endure and still be recognizably themselves for the most part for future generations to enjoy. If a GL or Flash has to take a dirt nap or retire for some time, that's not so bad so long as it's not off the table to bring them back and continue telling stories with them (and please, no Emerald Twilights). But that's not what discussions like these are about. They're about "I'm tired of Clark, kill him so my boy Conner/Jon/etc can be Superman and don't let him come back because he's been Superman for 80 years and that's played out."

I vehemently disagree on that front.

[Dred]

I'm fine with characters dying, but not "and now they're as dead as FDR." While I dislike Barry returning because he got the Hail Mary of superhero deaths, I'm not against it because there could be new stories to tell. It would have been interesting to have him learning from Wally for a short spell since the latter discovered tons of new applications of their abilities and surpassed his former mentor's speed. There are still stories to tell.

As I understood the concept, however, it's about putting those characters to bed and leaving them there except for, say, flashbacks or elseworlds. I don't particularly care for burning a concept in that capacity.

That's not the point. Bringing back Barry was explicitly to sculpt a particular status quo. The status quo is "The Trinity are important and we can't have the universe move on and make them look old/bad." They didn't get rid of Wally as an accident. The New 52 was not some oopsie. It is a consequence of the mindset that these are the characters that matter and everyone else, and every other idea, is subject to fitting in their shadow. You do realize bringing back Barry is not just a Didio/Lee favoritism thing, right? They got approval for a reason, and the reason is that Barry fits Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent better. Barry doesn't make them look old anymore by being a guy who died years ago whose sidekick grew up, got married, had kids etc.

Bruce Wayne still hasn't taken a big step forward in his seventy year old relationship. How does Wally having his 12 and 10 year old, biracial children make Bruce Wayne look? Barry's grandson? The next generation that was surely coming? You strangle legacy and progress by saying the future doesn't matter.

You are putting literally every other character who is not a 1960s status quo compliant add on in the grave. It's one or the other, you're killing something. My argument just acknowledges there's like twenty thousand Batman or Superman comics already.

Maybe we should just make Gilgamesh and Achilles comics. They were the most iconic for a time. Gotta have that spike popularity status quo.

[KC]

Does your argument work if there's less Bruce Wayne fans than fans who would buy a non-Bruce Batman comic?

I know that is not the case now, but I'm pretty sure that's why you chose Bruce.

Here's the hilarious thing. You could have both. The problem is not "Bruce Wayne fans want Bruce Wayne comics." The problem is the rest of the universe must conform to Bruce Wayne. Thus, stagnancy.

yes, because all fans are valid.

I used Bruce because he was the character you used in the example that I originally replied to.

You could have both for a while. But for what the OP is advocating to work, the generation after Bruce's will have to move on and then so will that generation and then the generation after that and not all of these characters can have ongoing in-continuity stories told about them at the same time. And moving on would be unfair to the fans who want stories about specific characters.

[Robanker]

That's not the point. Bringing back Barry was explicitly to sculpt a particular status quo. The status quo is "The Trinity are important and we can't have the universe move on and make them look old/bad." They didn't get rid of Wally as an accident. The New 52 was not some oopsie. It is a consequence of the mindset that these are the characters that matter and everyone else, and every other idea, is subject to fitting in their shadow. You do realize bringing back Barry is not just a Didio/Lee favoritism thing, right? They got approval for a reason, and the reason is that Barry fits Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent better. Barry doesn't make them look old anymore by being a guy who died years ago whose sidekick grew up, got married, had kids etc.

Bruce Wayne still hasn't taken a big step forward in his seventy year old relationship. How does Wally having his 12 and 10 year old, biracial children make Bruce Wayne look? Barry's grandson? The next generation that was surely coming? You strangle legacy and progress by saying the future doesn't matter.

You are putting literally every other character who is not a 1960s status quo compliant add on in the grave. It's one or the other, you're killing something. My argument just acknowledges there's like twenty thousand Batman or Superman comics already.

Maybe we should just make Gilgamesh and Achilles comics. They were the most iconic for a time. Gotta have that spike popularity status quo.

Except I don't share the belief that Nightwing ages Batman. I don't think "it's one or the other." There's room enough in the DCU for Dick Grayson and Jon Kent, and every generation in between. My personal solution to Barry v Wally would have been they agree the world can always use more heroes, they stop doing double duty for Keystone/Central, and each gets one. Barry gets the main book as per editorial's wish, Wally takes the other city and shows up in The Flash from time to time, maybe some minis or a book all his own if it proves it can sell. Why is he not the primary Flash? He's raising his kids and fixing his life in this new world order. Get him and Linda back together and keep him in relative limbo, intact, for when you need him.

It works just fine.

This isn't some hyperbolic "THEM OR US, COKE OR PEPSI" situation. It's only so extreme if you force it to be.

[Dred]

yes, because all fans are valid.

I used Bruce because he was the character you used in the example that I originally replied to.

You could have both for a while. But for what the OP is advocating for to work, the generation after Bruce's will have to move on and then so will that generation and then the generation after that and not all of these characters can have ongoing in-continuity stories told about them at the same time. And moving on would be unfair to the fans who want stories about specific characters.

All fans are valid, except the ones who want a progressive universe because that would be unfair to the fans who matter that like Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent and Barry Allen.

[Dred]

Except I don't share the belief that Nightwing ages Batman. I don't think "it's one or the other." There's room enough in the DCU for Dick Grayson and Jon Kent, and every generation in between. My personal solution to Barry v Wally would have been they agree the world can always use more heroes, they stop doing double duty for Keystone/Central, and each gets one. Barry gets the main book as per editorial's wish, Wally takes the other city and shows up in The Flash from time to time, maybe some minis or a book all his own if it proves it can sell. Why is he not the primary Flash? He's raising his kids and fixing his life in this new world order. Get him and Linda back together and keep him in relative limbo, intact, for when you need him.

It works just fine.

This isn't some hyperbolic "THEM OR US, COKE OR PEPSI" situation. It's only so extreme if you force it to be.

Nightwing fundamentally ages Batman. He grew up, so some years passed, Bruce got older.

There is clearly not enough room for everyone. DC only puts out so many pages a month. That's your limitation.

Your solution is Barry is important and gets everything and Wally gets thrown a bone sometimes so that we can forever be in the 1960s. Your solution is their solution.

It doesn't "work fine." There's not compromise in saying that the satellite era is the only era and all these things the rely on a forward moving universe (like, you know, a primary superhero team that isn't a bunch of white dudes from the 60s because that's literally all people in power cared about back then) can eat it.

It's extreme because one side is extremely winning. Your side, as it so happens. And let me be clear, this is not JUST a "I'm upset at Wally West and want only him to be The Flash because my nostalgia is more important" thing. There's nothing I'd love more in the world than the universe moving past Wally to a next generation with the same respect Barry once got. But we can literally never get the story because Barry Allen can't be 40, 50, 60 years old. You can extend this logic to the entire 60s status quo, not just Barry and Wally (though it is the most obvious case because Wally is the success story).

[KC]

All fans are valid, except the ones who want a progressive universe because that would be unfair to the fans who matter that like Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent and Barry Allen.

It's a bit of a catch but fans of the Bruce and Barry are more valid than the fans of the hypothetical 7th Batman after Bruce.

[Dred]

It's a bit of a catch but fans of the Bruce and Barry are more valid than the fans of the hypothetical 7th Batman after Bruce.

Excellent, so not all fans are valid. Fans who share your opinions are valid.

Here's the thing. I like Barry and Bruce. I have bought a lot of their comics and enjoyed many of their stories. I'm not against their comics. I just recognize the absurd abundance of their comics relative to, well, anything else. I'd like it if they tried something new because I fear comics are going to be dead in my lifetime and it'd be nice to see a creative vision that wasn't the same thing that it was when I was a small child. I know a lot of people, most even, naturally prefer things the way they were when they were younger. That's kind of what keeps the comic industry rolling. But I've seen this dead end coming for years and I'd like to see if a swerve onto another road would help.

[KC]

Excellent, so not all fans are valid. Fans who share your opinions are valid.

Here's the thing. I like Barry and Bruce. I have bought a lot of their comics and enjoyed many of their stories. I'm not against their comics. I just recognize the absurd abundance of their comics relative to, well, anything else.

Those fans are not valid because they don't exist and will not exist. DC can only really cater to the fans of characters they have already created.

[Dred]

If your honest solution is never create or try anything new and just follow all the trends we've been following for the last 20 years then I don't know what to say.