Why G. Perez’s WW matters to me.

[Angleman70]

IMHO, Before COIE WW was stagnant and boring. She couldn’t fly, her villains were lackluster and the stories just turned to crap. Then in COIE she was gone. What a gift that George took it upon himself to put so much detail and love into the Diana that I believe matters. One thing that I didn’t care for was Steve Trevor aged. Every panel of George’s art and story flowed like a symphony. Diana’s naïveté was great because she was so unsure of herself and terrified that she would fail in her mission. That’s characterization! The dialogue was flawless. The Gods and the amazons were presented the way they were meant to be

Jump forward to now and I don’t see the love anymore. The current run is boring and the art unfulfilling that I just don’t care what happens. Perhaps if we had the top writers and artists on WW maybe it would be better. But, I don’t see DC giving a damn what happens to our favorite Amazon.

Your thoughts?

[SiegePerilous02]

Perez's run was good for the time it came out. It was especially better compared to the books that were coming out just before. It may have been a breath of fresh air at the time, but I think rebooting her instead of revamping without a hard reboot did a lot of damage in the long run. It contributed to the lack of consistency in her world, supporting cast, history and villains just as much as the New 52, Rebirth and various transitions from Golden-Silver-Bronze ages did. We lost the Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman(Women) and now had to describe a third, which muddies things further instead of clarifying them ( a wider problem with COIE, Superman suffered this too though not as badly).

He gets credit for giving us a more diverse cast of Amazons who all had differing opinions. Their society was kind of boring though. I would have liked that cast mixed with the pre-Crisis Sci-Fi, and whimsy like the Diana's Day festival and the weird ass adventures Wonder Tot/Wonder Girl went on. His new supporting cast was ok, but they got too much panel time compared to Steve and Etta, both of whom were changed so much they might as well have been different characters. They were shunted to the side anyway. There were of course the epic problems it created for Donna, but that is down to the short sightedness of editorial and not him. The art was great in the beginning, but the pacing was kind of bad, and it could be a slog in spots.

His revamps of the villains and mythological figures were good, it would have been neat if he could do more. For some measure of consistency, Barbara Minerva should have been named Priscilla Rich though. Ditto the Swan being Helen Alexandros instead of Valerie.

[kjn]

Apart from what SiegePerilous02 said, one other important factor that Pérez brought—which was both a blessing and a later curse—was really digging into the mythical underpinnings of Wonder Woman. For Marston they were mostly an afterthought, and most other writers picked up some story elements. But Pérez made Greek mythology into Diana's turf, and really set out to interpret and present it systematically. I might not agree with some of the decisions and choices that he made, but overall it was done really well, and some of the reinterpretations were both good and really important. He also set out to bring back the social sensibilities and awareness that the golden age Wonder Woman had.

I'm especially thinking of his linking the Pandora myth to Wonder Woman. That one—Wonder Woman #45—should be required reading for every Wonder Woman editor or writer.

In a way, Pérez's flaws were his virtues as well: socially aware or preachy; intricate and dense or ponderous and meandering.

[Koriand'r]

I think George Perez is second only to Marston in importance to Wonder Woman and his only major mistake was removing all the sci-fi elements from her world. In the wake of Frank Miller's Batman work and John Byrne's revamp of Superman, the climate may not have been right to include pseudo science along with magic, but it's hurt Wonder Woman going forward. To the point where the Amazons eventually got a lot of their technology back and it was jettisoned again, so we could be submerged in even more mythology. I miss when Wonder Woman stories were more varied.

[Agent Z]

I can't think of any instances where advanced technology would have made a WW story better. It really does feel like people only champion that element because Marston had it even though he never did much with it.

I also much prefer Perez's status quo regarding Steve and a lack of a secret identity.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can't think of any instances where advanced technology would have made a WW story better. It really does feel like people only champion that element because Marston had it even though he never did much with it.

I also much prefer Perez's status quo regarding Steve and a lack of a secret identity.

I think it's more: why settle for less? We had advanced tech for the Amazons mixed in with mythical trappings, it makes Paradise Island more visually interesting and suited as a setting to multiple kinds of stories. Plus if we have a nation of psychic gorillas with advanced tech, why can't the women who existed first keep their tech? I don't mind losing it as much in a more finite saga like the movies, but in the ongoing comic narrative that has less limitations, it's more boring. The Amazons really don't have much to offer to the outside world.

I agree about ditching Diana Prince, but even then it could have easily been done without ditching continuity. A lot of his changes could have, which would have resulted in less of a mess in the long run.

[Agent Z]

I think it's more: why settle for less? We had advanced tech for the Amazons mixed in with mythical trappings, it makes Paradise Island more visually interesting and suited as a setting to multiple kinds of stories. Plus if we have a nation of psychic gorillas with advanced tech, why can't the women who existed first keep their tech? I don't mind losing it as much in a more finite saga like the movies, but in the ongoing comic narrative that has less limitations, it's more boring. The Amazons really don't have much to offer to the outside world.

I agree about ditching Diana Prince, but even then it could have easily been done without ditching continuity. A lot of his changes could have, which would have resulted in less of a mess in the long run.

Multiple kinds of stories do not mean multiple good stories. Sometimes having limitations can actually help. I also wouldn't use gorilla city as an argument given how offensive the idea of tbe most advanced city in Africa being run by apes is.

And as I said, nothing of note was really done with advanced technology. We saw inventions but had no idea how they came about, what theories the Amazons used etc. By contrast Perez put far more thought into his Amazon society and gvd differeng roles and beliefs they had. So you have something that was superfluous(not unlike the secret I.D) and something that actually looked like it had some thought put into it in regards to character work and wordbuilding. I'll take the latter any day.

I've said this before, but Perez's changes did not cause problems. What turned Diana into a mess was writers not leaving pre crisis continuity alone and/or refusing to stick with what had been laid down. Even if you don't like Perez discarding previous continuity, two wrongs don't make a right and Perez had the excuse of a reboot.

[AmiMizuno]

Multiple kinds of stories do not mean multiple good stories. Sometimes having limitations can actually help. I also wouldn't use gorilla city as an argument given how offensive the idea of tbe most advanced city in Africa being run by apes is.

And as I said, nothing of note was really done with advanced technology. We saw inventions but had no idea how tgey came about, what theories the Amazons used etc. By contrast Perez put far more thought into his Amazon society and gvd differeng roles and beliefs they had. So you have something that was superfluous(not unlike the secret I.D) and something that actually looked like it had some thought put into it in regards to character work and wordbuilding. I'll take the latter any day.

I've said this before, but Perez's changes did not cause problems. What turned Diana into a mess was writers not leaving pre crisis continuity alone and/or refusing to stick with what had been laid down. Even if you don't like Perez discarding previous continuity, two wrongs don't make a right and Perez had the excuse of a reboot.

It's explain how the tech came to be. The amazons used the magic sphere to see in the future and past, This was always the origin how the amazons had tech

[Angleman70]

I will agree that paradise island DOES need an upgrade. However we had that with Phil’s Run which Rucka destroyed in his run. I am tired of DC just not keeping Diana and her mythos consistent. If Diana and Donna don’t get changed soon I think I’ll bail on the title altogether.

[AmiMizuno]

One thing that's a nitpick for me is Diana being the only child. I would have loved to see characters like Mala come back

[Agent Z]

I will agree that paradise island DOES need an upgrade. However we had that with Phil’s Run which Rucka destroyed in his run. I am tired of DC just not keeping Diana and her mythos consistent. If Diana and Donna don’t get changed soon I think I’ll bail on the title altogether.

What did Rucka destroy? They still had advanced technology in his first run.

[AmiMizuno]

What did Rucka destroy? They still had advanced technology in his first run.

What advance tech? It seems they were stuck in time

[Angleman70]

Remember when Hera kicked PI? Right after that the ‘Dome’ Was finished. I did forget that the purple Ray was there but that’s it. Phil had the island teeming with possibilities for future stories. Just think what could’ve been if the island was crucial to the world with advanced medicines etc.

[SiegePerilous02]

Multiple kinds of stories do not mean multiple good stories. Sometimes having limitations can actually help. I also wouldn't use gorilla city as an argument given how offensive the idea of tbe most advanced city in Africa being run by apes is.

Having limitations still resulted in some poor or bad stories, and any writers that could tell good stories with the previous setup now no longer had the option. Or if they wanted to, they had to go into convoluted means to get there to just reference old stuff. How did the limitations actively help Wonder Woman? More thought could have been put into Amazon society with the tech, instead of going for full subtraction. It's made Wonder Woman's world more insular and kind of boring. There isn't a wide variety of locations or story types any more, ignoring these things until a story has a use for them is better and less wasteful than cutting them off completely for the dubious reason of "we might have some bad stories with this stuff."

Maybe Gorilla City isn't the best example. We could always go with Atlantis. But DC letting their kind of offensive Gorilla nation keep it's tech kind of still highlights the problem of not letting the women keep theirs.

And as I said, nothing of note was really done with advanced technology. We saw inventions but had no idea how tgey came about, what theories the Amazons used etc. By contrast Perez put far more thought into his Amazon society and gvd differeng roles and beliefs they had. So you have something that was superfluous(not unlike the secret I.D) and something that actually looked like it had some thought put into it in regards to character work and wordbuilding. I'll take the latter any day.

We could always hope for something better. Far preferable to have fleshed out Amazons and an Amazon society in addition to the tech mixed with mythical elements. The comics don't have the limitations of adaptations, the narrative goes on indefinitely. There is more time to expand her world.

Also, where the tech came from can be explained, like AmiMizuno's Magic Sphere example. But even if not, I don't really care. These are characters designed for fantasy stories for children. I think adult fans need to just let it slide a bit more often than we do. It's all make believe, it doesn't have to make 100% perfect sense. We're already past realism since this is an island of immortal women from myth blessed by Gods.

I've said this before, but Perez's changes did not cause problems. What turned Diana into a mess was writers not leaving pre crisis continuity alone and/or refusing to stick with what had been laid down. Even if you don't like Perez discarding previous continuity, two wrongs don't make a right and Perez had the excuse of a reboot.

No, COIE justified every tweak and reboot that followed it just by existing. You can't radically change the universe like that and then expect future creators to not do the same without looking like a hypocrite. Maybe future creators shouldn't have tried to bring back pre-Crisis elements, but it was short sighted to cut that stuff off in the first place when a less destructive method could have been used. Move on from it/ignore it if there is no story purpose; it's pretty much like deciding you don't want to play with the toys, but don't want anyone else to either, so you lock them in a chest nobody can access.

Perez could have overhauled the WW mythos without a reboot. It was editorial's decision to do a reboot, but he may have been happy to do it with what was there. Of course he contributed to a mess in the long run, the reboot isn't a good excuse because the reboot created the problems it was created to solve.

It's explain how the tech came to be. The amazons used the magic sphere to see in the future and past, This was always the origin how the amazons had tech

In Earth One, Morrison seemed to hint that contact with Queen Desira's world granted the Amazons some technology to work with. That's really all you need.

[kjn]

It's explain how the tech came to be. The amazons used the magic sphere to see in the future and past, This was always the origin how the amazons had tech

The Amazon technology never really felt that true to me, neither in Marston's run or in later attempts, and yes, that includes Morrison's Earth One. And using the Magic Sphere as its source even more so: to me it is very much antithetical to the idea of advanced Amazons. It means that they are not really innovators: they loan or copy things they see, they don't develop things on their own.

One factor is that the science fictional tropes of advanced technology mixes poorly with the mythological and fantasy tropes that Marston and later writers were drawing much more on. Gods telling people what to do doesn't fit with the humanistic and human-centric scientific worldview. Mythology is built around the idea of esoteric ancient knowledge that is passed down among a select few; while the scientific worldview holds up everything to critical review by anyone. But perhaps most damning is that Marston hardly showed us an technologically advanced Amazon society. Sure, they had the invisible plane and various rays, but still had to fetch water from wells and springs, and fought with spears and shields. Paradise Island was 95% fantasy and 5% science fiction, and the science fiction parts were just bolted on, with little connection or explanation.

Is it possible to make a technologically advanced Amazon civilisation? Yes, but my experience as a longtime reader of science fiction and fantasy is that it would mean ditching a lot of the mythological underpinnings of Diana's world. Forget the Magic Lasso or Diana being molded from clay: they'd stick out like sore thumbs.