Why G. Perez’s WW matters to me.

[SiegePerilous02]

Some prejudice is fine, especially if it is used to show that the Amazons are not monolithic. But Morrison's Amazons bodyshamed other women, failed to properly prepare Diana in her mission to Man's World, failed to reform Paula von Gunther using mind control techniques, and so on. They may be technologically advanced, but Morrison still makes them incompetent, nasty, and immoral.

He kept the outer trappings from Marston's Amazons, and ripped the soul out of them.

He didn't rip the soul out of them, he presented them largely as they were. Marston's Amazons body shammed women because that was acceptable back then. The fat Amazon Mala faces in the Contest is called Fatsis for God's sake, and she refers to her as a tub of lard. The athletes from Man's World that competed against them were drawn as more muscular and less conventionally beautiful, and it was shown that the more beautiful Amazons were superior to them because they were stronger while keeping acceptable beauty.

They also do not come from a culture where obesity would be a thing. Of course they'd react to it with alarm. PC anti-body shaming is not something they would know about, and Etta is right to call them out on it to an extent.

They succeeded with reforming people with brain washing all the time in the Golden Age...is that really a good thing? Sure Paula consented in the original stories, but a lot of others did not, and it was presented as being 100% good because that's what Marston believed. Morrison, and likely no modern writer, believes that brainwashing is a good healthy way to reform someone, which is why it has an unsettling air about it and not much different than Psycho's treatment of Diana. They just covered up the dirt. If Marston's Amazons' reformation techniques weren't incompetent, it's largely because he did not allow them to be and presented them and Queen Desira as being in the right, when it's kind of dicey if that should be the case.

We'll have to see how Diana continues to reform Paula in the third volume. Maybe she will abandon the Venus Girdles?

[kjn]

He didn't rip the soul out of them, he presented them largely as they were. Marston's Amazons body shammed women because that was acceptable back then. The fat Amazon Mala faces in the Contest is called Fatsis for God's sake, and she refers to her as a tub of lard. The athletes from Man's World that competed against them were drawn as more muscular and less conventionally beautiful, and it was shown that the more beautiful Amazons were superior to them because they were stronger while keeping acceptable beauty.

I think I'll just refer to our earlier discussions on Morrison's Earth One here: Volume One, Volume Two

[SiegePerilous02]

I think I'll just refer to our earlier discussions on Morrison's Earth One here: Volume One, Volume Two

I guess it's for the best, it's kind of off topic in this thread. Agree to disagree then.

[Vordan]

I have only seen the movie, so can't say anything about the comics. But note that Wakanda doesn't mix in actual gods into the narrative, and it does consistently portray Wakanda as very technologically advanced but with lots of traditions. Wakanda is rather similar to Star Wars in that regard. (I do think that the mixing of autocracy and trials by combat with an advanced technological society was among the weakest part of Black Panther, but that's my own taste speaking.)

The trouble for Themyscira is that once you add in gods or depending on things they are given (like the Magic Sphere), a lot of the framework for a believable vibrant technological society goes out the window. You also have the trouble that Marston and later writers only added bits and pieces of advanced technology onto the Amazons. There was no attempt to integrate the technology into the Themysciran society in any real manner.

In any case, I think it's more important that Themyscira be presented as a viable, nice, and sustainable culture.



I'd rather say that Ares is the classic Wonder Woman opening villain. He's not there to be Diana's arch-nemesis, but as the impetus for her to go to Man's World.

My impression with Wilson wasn't that she necessarily wanted to bring Ares into play. I think she wanted to bring Themyscira into play and to crash Diana's mythological fantasy world and her Man's World together—she has stated as much in interviews. In a way, she used Ares as a plot device to do that, and sort of reverse the usual way of doing Diana's origin story. Instead of having Ares loose in Man's World and having that as the cause of making Diana leave Themyscira, Wilson had Ares freeing himself cause Themyscira to crash into Man's World, leaving Diana to pick up the pieces.

The MCU shies away from actually having Gods but in the comics the Wakandan God Bast is very real. Religion/Mysticism and Science co-exist in 616 Wakanda. The struggle between the two has made for some very interesting stories in the Priest BP run at least.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don’t know. How many Luthor stories do you need?

Some prolific villains like Lex or the Joker need to be used more sparingly. But they all lend themselves to more stories far more easily than Ares does, so warrant more. He's the starter villain, but with the exception of Rucka's first run, is largely pointless as an antagonist beyond that.

A myth villain like Circe is more versatile and interesting than Ares. Even then, we need to mix it up. Have her face Circe and Medusa, but journey to Atomia's atom world in the next story, or go into outer space the one after that.

[AmiMizuno]

The main issue is with how often Dc relays on Cheetah, Circe and Ares. They never show us other villains. I mean with the time the Amazons spend time in the black sea. Why not have them have some relationships with Clea. I mean Silver Swan isn't used.

[Pinsir]

The Bronze Age Wonder Woman stories are great. I like them a lot more than George Perez's WW run and Post-Crisis stories as a whole.

[DrNewGod]

I have very mixed feelings about Perez Wonder Woman.

First, Perez is among my top five favorite artists; I love photorealism, and IMO, he did it better than anybody before or since (except possibly Alex Ross). He also put some real energy into Wonder Woman, with great stories, and a much better developed supporting cast than she'd enjoyed in decades.

All that said, I echo others in being unhappy with the consignment of the Amazons back to the technology of ancient Greece. It took something from the whole idea of Wonder Woman and the Amazons as inspirational feminist icons.

Additionally, the hard reboot for Wonder Woman was probably the single most damaging thing to the fabric of the combined DCU to come out of CoIE. It required extensive revisions to the backstories of the JSA, the JLA, and The Teen Titans, stripping all of them of some of the sense of heritage that had become part of their brands. Wonder Woman could have been the DCU's main continuity player, and assumed an in-story importance in the DCU that she has never held. Almost all of the Stranger In A Strange Land stories could still have been done, but as flashbacks.

So, I think Perez certainly wrote some good stories, and post-Crisis Wonder Woman needed a bit of tweaking (i.e. the nature of Amazonian science, the diversity/complexity of Amazons), but I will always feel that he blew a real opportunity.

[Agent Z]

Question, what if some writers simply don't have use for Amazon technology? I mean, it isn't like this stopped people from writing (or reading) WW.

I have very mixed feelings about Perez Wonder Woman.

First, Perez is among my top five favorite artists; I love photorealism, and IMO, he did it better than anybody before or since (except possibly Alex Ross). He also put some real energy into Wonder Woman, with great stories, and a much better developed supporting cast than she'd enjoyed in decades.

All that said, I echo others in being unhappy with the consignment of the Amazons back to the technology of ancient Greece. It took something from the whole idea of Wonder Woman and the Amazons as inspirational feminist icons.

Additionally, the hard reboot for Wonder Woman was probably the single most damaging thing to the fabric of the combined DCU to come out of CoIE. It required extensive revisions to the backstories of the JSA, the JLA, and The Teen Titans, stripping all of them of some of the sense of heritage that had become part of their brands. Wonder Woman could have been the DCU's main continuity player, and assumed an in-story importance in the DCU that she has never held. Almost all of the Stranger In A Strange Land stories could still have been done, but as flashbacks.

So, I think Perez certainly wrote some good stories, and post-Crisis Wonder Woman needed a bit of tweaking (i.e. the nature of Amazonian science, the diversity/complexity of Amazons), but I will always feel that he blew a real opportunity.

But itt was a reboot. The entire point was to do new stories not rehash the old ones.

Also Perez's story had her gaining in universe importance and doing so without the aid of JLA or JSA, two teams where, if we're being honest, she has rarely ever been treated with that much respect even before post crisis. She was a secretary to the JSA for christ's sakes.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Bronze Age Wonder Woman stories are great. I like them a lot more than George Perez's WW run and Post-Crisis stories as a whole.

The ones just before the reboot (I think the Dan Mishin run) seem almost like a proto-Perez. Steve and Etta were back an in the military, plus there is the antagonists present: a Cheetah, Circe, Dr. Psycho, Ares and the Silver Swan, all of whom made it into the Perez run. I have to wonder if that's partially why he chose those villains to focus on, because they were fresh in everyone's memories?

His run is definitely superior in terms of art. I think him coming on board as artist with a new number 1 (essentially a softer reboot) and doing things like ditching the Diana Prince ID, giving her a power boost, and either changing the dyanamic with Steve or breaking them up instead of ditching it altogether would have sufficed.

Question, what if some writers simply don't have use for Amazon technology? I mean, it isn't like this stopped people from writing (or reading) WW.

Then they don't have to use it, though what kind of story would they be building that would require Bronze age Amazons instead of Amazons with sci-fi tech? Is the trade off that important that it's worth taking the technology off the table for other writers who would want to use it? Seems like an over reaction to a simple problem that not everyone is going to perceive as a problem.

But itt was a reboot. The entire point was to do new stories not rehash the old ones.

Also Perez's story had her gaining in universe importance and doing so without the aid of JLA or JSA, two teams where, if we're being honest, she has rarely ever been treated with that much respect even before post crisis. She was a secretary to the JSA for christ's sakes.

You can avoid rehashing old stories without rebooting them away. And DC not wanting to reboot the other properties while rebooting Wonder Woman, even though she's a part of them, caused problems. Donna has been ruined ever since. And while her usage in the old stories for the JLA/JSA is hardly great, removing her from the teams history is a sign of disrespect as well. It doesn't fix the problem. I think the more obvious solution would be to get rid of the "she was the JSA's secretary" thing instead of not making her part of the JSA to begin with. Seems simple enough and is vastly more satisfying.

Like Susan Storm and Jean Grey were pretty underwhelming in the Silver Age FF and X-Men stories due to the time period they were made in. But the sliding timescale and modern writing allows that to be tweaked more smoothly, whereas no one in their right mind would suggest removing them from the team history's altogether.

[DrNewGod]

...Also Perez's story had her gaining in universe importance and doing so without the aid of JLA or JSA, two teams where, if we're being honest, she has rarely ever been treated with that much respect even before post crisis. She was a secretary to the JSA for christ's sakes.

I agree with you that WW's JSA history would be one of the things that would have required some repositioning. But it could have been tweaked without complete removal.

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree with you that WW's JSA history would be one of the things that would have required some repositioning. But it could have been tweaked without complete removal.

If we had to have a merged Earth post-COIE, Diana's WWII history being intact would have been neat to see. Along the lines of how the films are doing it, a seasoned immortal superhero who existed in various eras. She could be a member of the JSA and be able to face Paula von Gunther as an opponent in her original context. If it's not as desirable to have Steve, Etta, Phil Darnell, and other old school villains around anymore, just preserve them as part of her past and build a new cast around her, Donna and the Amazons in the present day.

It would have been a bit smoother than making her a naive newcomer who only showed up after Donna had been running around as Wonder Girl for a few years, Batman was already on his second Robin, and Barry Allen was dead.

[Koriand'r]

If we had to have a merged Earth post-COIE, Diana's WWII history being intact would have been neat to see. Along the lines of how the films are doing it, a seasoned immortal superhero who existed in various eras. She could be a member of the JSA and be able to face Paula von Gunther as an opponent in her original context. If it's not as desirable to have Steve, Etta, Phil Darnell, and other old school villains around anymore, just preserve them as part of her past and build a new cast around her, Donna and the Amazons in the present day.

It would have been a bit smoother than making her a naive newcomer who only showed up after Donna had been running around as Wonder Girl for a few years, Batman was already on his second Robin, and Barry Allen was dead.

I tend to agree with you, but those fish out of water stories did give us a definitive version of Diana's personalty in the new continuity. In the old one it varied from saying "Great Hera!" all the time to using American slang and pop culture references. It was probably necessary to go forward without the tangled history she'd amassed as well. Steve Trevor's multiple deaths, Hippolyta's brainwashing, renouncing her title, losing her powers and the mod era were a lot of baggage to saddle her with when Superman was refreshed and Batman was revitalized, just to keep Diana's place in the JSA and Donna's origin intact.

[Pinsir]

The ones just before the reboot (I think the Dan Mishin run) seem almost like a proto-Perez. Steve and Etta were back an in the military, plus there is the antagonists present: a Cheetah, Circe, Dr. Psycho, Ares and the Silver Swan, all of whom made it into the Perez run. I have to wonder if that's partially why he chose those villains to focus on, because they were fresh in everyone's memories?

I was surprised how similar the late Bronze age stories (or what I would call the Bronze Age Reboot,issues #269-329) were to George Perez's run too. A lot of things that people attribute to him, like ramping up the mythological stuff, the more primitive Amazons and even villains like Circe, Silver Swan and the red-headed Cheetah, all have their origins to this period. So if you like Perez's work, you may like the Bronze Age stuff.

[SiegePerilous02]

I tend to agree with you, but those fish out of water stories did give us a definitive version of Diana's personalty in the new continuity. In the old one it varied from saying "Great Hera!" all the time to using American slang and pop culture references. It was probably necessary to go forward without the tangled history she'd amassed as well. Steve Trevor's multiple deaths, Hippolyta's brainwashing, renouncing her title, losing her powers and the mod era were a lot of baggage to saddle her with when Superman was refreshed and Batman was revitalized, just to keep Diana's place in the JSA and Donna's origin intact.

IDK, I think all of that stuff could have been avoided by just taking the Marvel approach: keep the broad strokes, and the rest is relegated to "let us never speak of it again" status. It seems they were inclined to ignore the Mod era, and they could stop referencing all Steve's deaths. He crashed on the island for her origin and he is one of her love interests are all anyone would need to know, they could tool around with their romance in the present or break them up/kill him off again. Whereas post-Crisis may have seemed necessary at the time, history accumulated with it, and you now had to describe different versions of the same characters (Diana, Steve, Etta, etc). across different eras. People know Wonder Woman was around before the 80s, and are inevitably going to ask what was in the older stuff and how it differs from the present. I know that was an issue of confusion for me when I first got into the character, and it soured me on the post-Crisis version as a whole. Maybe do what they sort of do now, re-tell the origin stories with modernized writing and minor tweaks, but keep the broad strokes the same?

Superman may have been refreshed at the time, but he ran into his own continuity problems as a result of Byrne's reboot and subsequent reboots (I also dislike Byrne's Superman far more than Perez's Wonder Woman). And the Donna messes are far more tangled than anything that came before it in the WW-verse. She alone makes the whole exercise, at least how it was executed, not worth it.

I was surprised how similar the late Bronze age stories (or what I would call the Bronze Age Reboot,issues #269-329) were to George Perez's run too. A lot of things that people attribute to him, like ramping up the mythological stuff, the more primitive Amazons and even villains like Circe, Silver Swan and the red-headed Cheetah, all have their origins to this period. So if you like Perez's work, you may like the Bronze Age stuff.

Did the Amazons really lose their tech? I do know Diana found another tribe of Amazons ruled by Atalanta, were they the bronze age ones?
Because the Paradise Island Amazon still had stuff like telecommunication devices and the purple ray over in NTT.