Why G. Perez’s WW matters to me.

[Koriand'r]

Multiple kinds of stories do not mean multiple good stories. Sometimes having limitations can actually help. I also wouldn't use gorilla city as an argument given how offensive the idea of tbe most advanced city in Africa being run by apes is.

And as I said, nothing of note was really done with advanced technology. We saw inventions but had no idea how tgey came about, what theories the Amazons used etc. By contrast Perez put far more thought into his Amazon society and gvd differeng roles and beliefs they had. So you have something that was superfluous(not unlike the secret I.D) and something that actually looked like it had some thought put into it in regards to character work and wordbuilding. I'll take the latter any day.

I've said this before, but Perez's changes did not cause problems. What turned Diana into a mess was writers not leaving pre crisis continuity alone and/or refusing to stick with what had been laid down. Even if you don't like Perez discarding previous continuity, two wrongs don't make a right and Perez had the excuse of a reboot.

Why should they stick with what's been laid down, how many Ares stories do we need? As for the clamoring for technology, absence makes the heart grow fonder, familiarity breeds contempt and you never miss the water until your well goes dry.

The first Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman issue I owned had Diana escaping Paradise Island in a stolen rocket-ship while evading laser blasts. That was good stuff, I don't want to necessarily go back there, but I'd like the option. In my last folksy bromide for this post I'll add that variety is the spice of life.

[SiegePerilous02]

Mixing the fantasy and the sci fi never really bothered me. It works for stuff like Final Fantasy and even Aquaman, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for something like Wonder Woman.

I do agree that I don't like the Magic Sphere given to them by Athena as the source of all their tech. I'd prefer something like finding an old Venusian vessel on the island and tooling around with it without a God telling them to do it, or something. They could also ditch the spears and bows and arrows and replace them with more Sci-Fi variations of them with a Greco-Roman aesthetic. Or the pacifying guns from Earth One. Plus hard light or Amazonium shields.

Why should they stick with what's been laid down, how many Ares stories do we need? As for the clamoring for technology, absence makes the heart grow fonder, familiarity breeds contempt and you never miss the water until your well goes dry.

The first Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman issue I owned had Diana escaping Paradise Island in a stolen rocket-ship while evading laser blasts. That was good stuff, I don't want to necessarily go back there, but I'd like the option. In my last folksy bromide for this post I'll add that variety is the spice of life.

Yeah the God stories can be great and we shouldn't abandon them, but c'mon: it gets stale without other stuff to rotate it out with. Or mix and match with.

[AmiMizuno]

I mean even in the Earth One by Grant Morrison still has their spears. Maybe their spears could also shot lase it. Maybe the magic sphere could be more of item to make sure the likes of Ares are locked up or something like the doom gate is okay. IF they are gating things like that I can't see why they can't create advance weapons to help them take on a god. Another idea a had is the magic sphere is also a locator to help with finding magical artificials That maybe the amazons had at one point but had them stolen when they were enslaved. So maybe they should be able to leave at some point to get these items. They see the tech and use what they have on the island

[Agent Z]

Why should they stick with what's been laid down, how many Ares stories do we need?

Not that many, I'll admit. But then again, Perez had Ares more or less turn good in his run, so it wasn't like they needed him as a villain. They could have made him some kind of unpredictable ally like what Rucka did in both his runs.

Remember when Hera kicked PI? Right after that the ‘Dome’ Was finished. I did forget that the purple Ray was there but that’s it. Phil had the island teeming with possibilities for future stories. Just think what could’ve been if the island was crucial to the world with advanced medicines etc.

Rucka's story had the Amazons' technology being a source of contention with other countries.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[brettc1]

Perez is the Hendrix of Wonder Woman writers.

[brettc1]

Why should they stick with what's been laid down, how many Ares stories do we need?

I don’t know. How many Luthor stories do you need?

[Vordan]

Wakanda over at Marvel mixes mysticism and sci-fi so I don’t see why Themyscaria can’t.

I don’t know. How many Luthor stories do you need?

I’ve always been an advocate that the Super-Mythos needs to rely less on Lex (and that goes double for the Bat-Mythos with Joker), even though he’s my favorite villain, but Lex and Ares aren’t even close popularity-wise. Does the average Wondy fan even like Ares that much? Do people consider him her arch? In my experience Cheetah or Circe are far more popular for that role. Ares seems to just show up so we can rehash the Perez story where he tries to start WWIII. That’s his plan over and over again every time I’ve seen him.

I really don’t think lessening the usage of Ares would have the impact on the Wonder-Mythos that restricting the usage of Lex or Joker would have on the Super-Mythos and Bat-Mythos. We could’ve left him imprisoned on Themyscaria and I don’t think that would’ve been a bad call.

[kjn]

Wakanda over at Marvel mixes mysticism and sci-fi so I don’t see why Themyscaria can’t.

I have only seen the movie, so can't say anything about the comics. But note that Wakanda doesn't mix in actual gods into the narrative, and it does consistently portray Wakanda as very technologically advanced but with lots of traditions. Wakanda is rather similar to Star Wars in that regard. (I do think that the mixing of autocracy and trials by combat with an advanced technological society was among the weakest part of Black Panther, but that's my own taste speaking.)

The trouble for Themyscira is that once you add in gods or depending on things they are given (like the Magic Sphere), a lot of the framework for a believable vibrant technological society goes out the window. You also have the trouble that Marston and later writers only added bits and pieces of advanced technology onto the Amazons. There was no attempt to integrate the technology into the Themysciran society in any real manner.

In any case, I think it's more important that Themyscira be presented as a viable, nice, and sustainable culture.

I’ve always been an advocate that the Super-Mythos needs to rely less on Lex (and that goes double for the Bat-Mythos with Joker), even though he’s my favorite villain, but Lex and Ares aren’t even close popularity-wise. Does the average Wondy fan even like Ares that much? Do people consider him her arch? In my experience Cheetah or Circe are far more popular for that role. Ares seems to just show up so we can rehash the Perez story where he tries to start WWIII. That’s his plan over and over again every time I’ve seen him.

I really don’t think lessening the usage of Ares would have the impact on the Wonder-Mythos that restricting the usage of Lex or Joker would have on the Super-Mythos and Bat-Mythos. We could’ve left him imprisoned on Themyscaria and I don’t think that would’ve been a bad call.

I'd rather say that Ares is the classic Wonder Woman opening villain. He's not there to be Diana's arch-nemesis, but as the impetus for her to go to Man's World.

My impression with Wilson wasn't that she necessarily wanted to bring Ares into play. I think she wanted to bring Themyscira into play and to crash Diana's mythological fantasy world and her Man's World together—she has stated as much in interviews. In a way, she used Ares as a plot device to do that, and sort of reverse the usual way of doing Diana's origin story. Instead of having Ares loose in Man's World and having that as the cause of making Diana leave Themyscira, Wilson had Ares freeing himself cause Themyscira to crash into Man's World, leaving Diana to pick up the pieces.

[AmiMizuno]

It terms of how to get a real advance society if they are to protect the world for terrible threat it would make more sense for them to have tech to make sure they are up to the course. Not just relaying on swords. Why can't they keep their swords or spears. If they can have their bracelets be made of the strongest metal that can also be given to their swords and spears. They made it powerful to go up against many creatures. Their armor is given thsi to make it harder to kill them. It can be explain why they still carry around swords. There are many of the queens armory in British and other places where they have swords still on their soldiers. They can still use it

[Gaelforce]

I have only seen the movie, so can't say anything about the comics. But note that Wakanda doesn't mix in actual gods into the narrative, and it does consistently portray Wakanda as very technologically advanced but with lots of traditions. Wakanda is rather similar to Star Wars in that regard. (I do think that the mixing of autocracy and trials by combat with an advanced technological society was among the weakest part of Black Panther, but that's my own taste speaking.)

The trouble for Themyscira is that once you add in gods or depending on things they are given (like the Magic Sphere), a lot of the framework for a believable vibrant technological society goes out the window. You also have the trouble that Marston and later writers only added bits and pieces of advanced technology onto the Amazons. There was no attempt to integrate the technology into the Themysciran society in any real manner.

In any case, I think it's more important that Themyscira be presented as a viable, nice, and sustainable culture.



I'd rather say that Ares is the classic Wonder Woman opening villain. He's not there to be Diana's arch-nemesis, but as the impetus for her to go to Man's World.

My impression with Wilson wasn't that she necessarily wanted to bring Ares into play. I think she wanted to bring Themyscira into play and to crash Diana's mythological fantasy world and her Man's World together—she has stated as much in interviews. In a way, she used Ares as a plot device to do that, and sort of reverse the usual way of doing Diana's origin story. Instead of having Ares loose in Man's World and having that as the cause of making Diana leave Themyscira, Wilson had Ares freeing himself cause Themyscira to crash into Man's World, leaving Diana to pick up the pieces.

I think my big problem isn't that they didn't advance the Amazons, it's that writers over the years have dumbed them down. They went from inventing healing rays and invisible jets to being unchanging (and no, I don't think there's anything wrong with a society that remains the same so long as they are happy).

Diana started off as a scientist, but now she doesn't seem to have any skills outside of fighting. Over the years she's been a nurse, an author, an ambassador, etc., but that she went from being the brilliant inventor of a healing ray to, as depicted mostly nowadays, someone who just sits around waiting for the next crisis doesn't work for me.

When you're looking at a universe where apes got intelligent and developed amazing scientific discoveries as well as mental abilities, or where a sunken and isolated city created all sorts of cool SF weapons and vehicles, it doesn't make any sense to dumb-down the only all-female society they have, especially when they started off at the top of the intelligence/sciences heap.

[kjn]

I think my big problem isn't that they didn't advance the Amazons, it's that writers over the years have dumbed them down. They went from inventing healing rays and invisible jets to being unchanging (and no, I don't think there's anything wrong with a society that remains the same so long as they are happy).

I can easily stand stable, as long as it's shown as healthy and adaptable when necessary. E.g. I liked how Rucka had them reverse-engineer all the tech that was on the plane in Rebirth, and rebuilding the crashed plane so it was invisible (and bio-degradable ).

Would I like technologically advanced Amazons? Yes, but it's farther down the list than other stuff I want them to have or be. I'd much rather have the Amazons that Rucka or Pérez had than the ones by Morrison, who were incompetent and bigoted. Likewise I'd rather have a Diana who can ask Charlie to sing for her and stays on the ground than someone who pushes him aside and flies off into the horizon.

Now, Wilson is determined to work with the hand that she was dealt by Rucka, and I think we have to respect her for that. That includes Amazons who are mostly using bronze age technology, but are more than capable of learning.

[Gaelforce]

I can easily stand stable, as long as it's shown as healthy and adaptable when necessary. E.g. I liked how Rucka had them reverse-engineer all the tech that was on the plane in Rebirth, and rebuilding the crashed plane so it was invisible (and bio-degradable ).

Would I like technologically advanced Amazons? Yes, but it's farther down the list than other stuff I want them to have or be. I'd much rather have the Amazons that Rucka or Pérez had than the ones by Morrison, who were incompetent and bigoted. Likewise I'd rather have a Diana who can ask Charlie to sing for her and stays on the ground than someone who pushes him aside and flies off into the horizon.

Now, Wilson is determined to work with the hand that she was dealt by Rucka, and I think we have to respect her for that. That includes Amazons who are mostly using bronze age technology, but are more than capable of learning.

One of the things on the top of my list is a highly intelligent Diana with some serious non-combat related skills. From a warrior/scientist to just a warrior is, for me, a huge step down, especially compared to her male counterparts. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head who have gone 'backwards' in terms of skills or professions. Ace journalist, greatest detective, best fighter pilot, smart forensic scientist, etc. If anything, their skills have improved/sharpened over the decades.

It's tiresome when it comes to plotlines that Diana's only option is, generally speaking, fighting or talking her way out of it. She's rarely shown using tactics or strategy, especially in a team setting, and is almost always 'one of those heroes standing in the background' when it comes to solving crimes/following clues.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can easily stand stable, as long as it's shown as healthy and adaptable when necessary. E.g. I liked how Rucka had them reverse-engineer all the tech that was on the plane in Rebirth, and rebuilding the crashed plane so it was invisible (and bio-degradable ).

Would I like technologically advanced Amazons? Yes, but it's farther down the list than other stuff I want them to have or be. I'd much rather have the Amazons that Rucka or Pérez had than the ones by Morrison, who were incompetent and bigoted. Likewise I'd rather have a Diana who can ask Charlie to sing for her and stays on the ground than someone who pushes him aside and flies off into the horizon.

Now, Wilson is determined to work with the hand that she was dealt by Rucka, and I think we have to respect her for that. That includes Amazons who are mostly using bronze age technology, but are more than capable of learning.

Morrison's Amazons may be bigoted to a degree, but then then the Paradise Island Amazons have always been a bit bigoted towards the outside world. Especially if we want them to have a bit of agency and abandon it of their own volition. And not entirely without good reason, we were actively shown Hercules attempting to herd them into rape camps and destroy their home. They mostly wanted to be left alone, didn't kill invading men or inflict violence on them of any kind (instead sending them to Queen Desira for reformation), and didn't chuck babies off cliffs. Azzarello's Amazons are going too far, but Morrison's are fine IMO. Even Perez's Philippus angrily said they should have left Steve in the water before cooling off.

They are not incompetent either. They developed their tech, and unlike Marston, it's not made explicit that they did by cheating and peeking at the future. They steam rolled over an invading Nazi army in a matter of minutes with no loss of life on either side.

We really shouldn't have to choose between Perez and Rucka's* non-advanced Amazons and advanced Amazons. We should have both. I'm more understanding of the movie because there is less time to explore the island on screen anyway, and Perez is a major influence. But the comics don't have that handicap.

*Rucka's not being advanced is a bit debateable. They had the purple ray, and Orlando expanded on it and gave them more tech from the stars retrieved by Astarte. So Rucka's Amazons already hit the sweet spot between the two extremes. I always got the vibes in the first run that he wanted to write the Amazons as always having tech and it not being a recent development like in Jimenez's run.

One of the things on the top of my list is a highly intelligent Diana with some serious non-combat related skills. From a warrior/scientist to just a warrior is, for me, a huge step down, especially compared to her male counterparts. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head who have gone 'backwards' in terms of skills or professions. Ace journalist, greatest detective, best fighter pilot, smart forensic scientist, etc. If anything, their skills have improved/sharpened over the decades.

It's tiresome when it comes to plotlines that Diana's only option is, generally speaking, fighting or talking her way out of it. She's rarely shown using tactics or strategy, especially in a team setting, and is almost always 'one of those heroes standing in the background' when it comes to solving crimes/following clues.

I think Clark's investigative skills and general intelligence take sporadic hits, but he definitely still fares better in general than Diana. At least he still has the job even if writers don't do much with it.

Marston went a bit overboard with having her be the one to invent the Ray and Invisible Plane. What are the rest of the Amazons doing if she's inventing everything? But making her Althea's prized pupil in using the Ray, and discovering aspects of it Althea didn't think of, is something that works.

[kjn]

One of the things on the top of my list is a highly intelligent Diana with some serious non-combat related skills. From a warrior/scientist to just a warrior is, for me, a huge step down, especially compared to her male counterparts. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head who have gone 'backwards' in terms of skills or professions. Ace journalist, greatest detective, best fighter pilot, smart forensic scientist, etc. If anything, their skills have improved/sharpened over the decades.

It's tiresome when it comes to plotlines that Diana's only option is, generally speaking, fighting or talking her way out of it. She's rarely shown using tactics or strategy, especially in a team setting, and is almost always 'one of those heroes standing in the background' when it comes to solving crimes/following clues.

I'm not sure Diana is the only superhero who has taken similar hits, but yes, I agree that writers should let Diana show more skills and abilities outside of combat. I'm just unsure if scientist or inventor is the best possible choice. I myself view her as the best organiser (except possibly Oracle) among the DC heroes, and definitely the best mission leader, but it's always tricky to show these qualities in fiction. Doubly so with the Batgod and male privilege (both among readers and writers) working against you.

And if writers can show more of Diana's empathy as a superpower, I'd be really happy.

Morrison's Amazons may be bigoted to a degree, but then then the Paradise Island Amazons have always been a bit bigoted towards the outside world. Especially if we want them to have a bit of agency and abandon it of their own volition.

Some prejudice is fine, especially if it is used to show that the Amazons are not monolithic. But Morrison's Amazons bodyshamed other women, failed to properly prepare Diana in her mission to Man's World, failed to reform Paula von Gunther using mind control techniques, and so on. They may be technologically advanced, but Morrison still makes them incompetent, nasty, and immoral.

He kept the outer trappings from Marston's Amazons, and ripped the soul out of them.