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  1. #1

    Default Re-reading The Oz Effect made Bendis's ideas work a bit better for me...

    When Bendis shipped Jon off with Crazy Grandpa Jor-El I didn't necessarily have a major problem with it because Lois was there to keep an eye on him. As Mr. Oz, he'd gone from being a mysterious dude manipulating them from the shadows to a straight up villain by the end, but the guy was also clearly being manipulated by someone else who set out to deliberately drive Jor-El crazy. I could understand where Lois & Clark were coming from in allowing Jon to go with Jor-El. Family is family after all and it would be pretty cruel to keep Jon away from his grandfather, even if he was unstable. However, when Lois decided to come back to Earth and leave Jon in the care of Jor-El, I didn't think it worked. No mother would leave their son alone with a guy shown to be as dangerous as Mr. Oz was.

    But, upon re-reading The Oz Effect as part of my big Rebirth/Doomsday Clock refresh, I realised I had forgotten a very important aspect to the whole Mr. Oz/Jor-El subplot. As soon as Superman broke Mr. Oz's staff, he realised that it was controlling Jor-El's mind and his father immediately felt great sorrow for all the horrible things he'd done as Mr. Oz before being pulled away by, presumably, Dr. Manhattan. So, in the end, both Lois & Clark understood that Jor-El was not responsible for his crimes and Clark even vowed to find his father to help him.

    With this in mind, when the much more sane Jor-El reappeared in Man of Steel with his offer to take Jon on a tour through the galaxy, Clark's initial wariness of his father was correct, given the last time they'd seen each other, but allowing Jon & Lois to leave with them makes much more sense. Furthermore, after spending a few days with Jor-El to ensure that he's not still being mind-controlled, Lois's decision to leave Jon with his grandfather doesn't seem as unreasonable as it did to me originally.

    Finally, there's the matter of Mr. Oz's staff that was controlling him, which is uncannily similar to Rogal Zharr's staff that we're learning in Supergirl may have been influencing him. I don't believe this is a coincidence...

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    I'm glad you had that moment, hopefully others who criticize Bendis a lot take a second look at what he is trying to do as well, because he really is delivering a great run with Superman and Action Comics.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I still think there’s some missing story here, given how nonplussed Clark is that he shows up and now has his own starship. The reaction was the Superman equivalent of a parent not calling before coming by, not “oh, you escaped the person who kidnapped and tortured you.” Bendis has said Doctor Manhattans role will be addressed at some point.

    But I do agree it’s not as bad as people like to make it out to be.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    not for me it doesn't. Clark and Lois still had zero reason to trust Jor-el. So I have zero reason to have sympathy for them getting burned for their ooc foolishness. For me, it IS that bad.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    not for me it doesn't. Clark and Lois still had zero reason to trust Jor-el. So I have zero reason to have sympathy for them getting burned for their ooc foolishness. For me, it IS that bad.
    While they hadn't met Jor-El prior to his recent resurrection, they certainly knew what kind of person he was from all of the Fortress's historical records (many of which came with holographic recreations). Lois & Clark both knew that, prior to the torture he'd endured, Jor-El was a remarkable man, and looking for the best in people in sort of Superman's whole shtick. Add on to all that the fact that Jor-El is Jon's grandfather and I can totally see why they were willing to trust him enough to let Jon go on their trip through space together with Lois as a chaperone at first. Once she'd realised she was over her head and Jor-El wasn't still being controlled, I think it's much more reasonable for her to have enough trust in her husband's father to leave her son in his care for a little while.

    Family is complicated and family is messy, particularly when that family happens to be knee-deep in superhero craziness on a daily basis, but family sometimes makes people do things that they might not otherwise do, particularly when it comes to trust.

  6. #6
    Fantastic Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    While they hadn't met Jor-El prior to his recent resurrection, they certainly knew what kind of person he was from all of the Fortress's historical records (many of which came with holographic recreations). Lois & Clark both knew that, prior to the torture he'd endured, Jor-El was a remarkable man, and looking for the best in people in sort of Superman's whole shtick. Add on to all that the fact that Jor-El is Jon's grandfather and I can totally see why they were willing to trust him enough to let Jon go on their trip through space together with Lois as a chaperone at first. Once she'd realised she was over her head and Jor-El wasn't still being controlled, I think it's much more reasonable for her to have enough trust in her husband's father to leave her son in his care for a little while.

    Family is complicated and family is messy, particularly when that family happens to be knee-deep in superhero craziness on a daily basis, but family sometimes makes people do things that they might not otherwise do, particularly when it comes to trust.
    They had records about the man from from like what? 40 years ago? And before the man lost his planet, his face and got held prisoner. Oh and tried to destroy humanity. Maybe he was controlled to do that but he still did it! Yeah to me, nothing about their choices is remotely believable. He’ll their whole reasoning for the whole thing is flimsy at best. Go to aimlessly around space to “get perspective” whatever that means. And Lois ditching Jon and coming home without telling Clark was irresponsible and callous. I don’t need or want these characters to be perfect. But frankly, Bendis’s Lois and Clark are morons.
    Last edited by OpaqueGiraffe17; 03-21-2019 at 08:57 PM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    They had records about the man from from like what? 40 years ago? And before the man lost his planet, his face and got held prisoner. Oh and tried to destroy humanity. Maybe he was controlled to do that but he still did it! Yeah to me, nothing about their choices is remotely believable. He’ll their whole reasoning for the whole thing is flimsy at best. Go to aimlessly around space to “get perspective” whatever that means. And Lois ditching Jon and coming home without telling Clark was irresponsible and callous. I don’t need or want these characters to be perfect. But frankly, Bendis’s Lois and Clark are morons.
    Considering that Superman and Lois have their own experiences with friends, family, and themselves being mind controlled by villains like Dominus, Parallax and the like, I think they're probably willing to give Jor-El a little slack. Like I said, these people have pretty crazy lives

  8. #8
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    When Bendis shipped Jon off with Crazy Grandpa Jor-El I didn't necessarily have a major problem with it because Lois was there to keep an eye on him. As Mr. Oz, he'd gone from being a mysterious dude manipulating them from the shadows to a straight up villain by the end, but the guy was also clearly being manipulated by someone else who set out to deliberately drive Jor-El crazy. I could understand where Lois & Clark were coming from in allowing Jon to go with Jor-El. Family is family after all and it would be pretty cruel to keep Jon away from his grandfather, even if he was unstable. However, when Lois decided to come back to Earth and leave Jon in the care of Jor-El, I didn't think it worked. No mother would leave their son alone with a guy shown to be as dangerous as Mr. Oz was.

    But, upon re-reading The Oz Effect as part of my big Rebirth/Doomsday Clock refresh, I realised I had forgotten a very important aspect to the whole Mr. Oz/Jor-El subplot. As soon as Superman broke Mr. Oz's staff, he realised that it was controlling Jor-El's mind and his father immediately felt great sorrow for all the horrible things he'd done as Mr. Oz before being pulled away by, presumably, Dr. Manhattan. So, in the end, both Lois & Clark understood that Jor-El was not responsible for his crimes and Clark even vowed to find his father to help him.

    With this in mind, when the much more sane Jor-El reappeared in Man of Steel with his offer to take Jon on a tour through the galaxy, Clark's initial wariness of his father was correct, given the last time they'd seen each other, but allowing Jon & Lois to leave with them makes much more sense. Furthermore, after spending a few days with Jor-El to ensure that he's not still being mind-controlled, Lois's decision to leave Jon with his grandfather doesn't seem as unreasonable as it did to me originally.

    Finally, there's the matter of Mr. Oz's staff that was controlling him, which is uncannily similar to Rogal Zharr's staff that we're learning in Supergirl may have been influencing him. I don't believe this is a coincidence...
    That's only half of what's happening there, though:

    cs018.jpg

    Jor-El then gets sucked away (by "him", as Jor-El says "He's taking me"), presumably by the person who brainwashed him in the first place. And that's the last he's seen until just showing up out of nowhere to take Jon away. There's no reference to "Where've you been?" "How'd you get free?" "Are you ok?" None of it.

    The relevant part isn't that they discovered he was mind-controlled: it's that he was retaken by (again, presumably) said mind-controller. Not only that, the staff was keeping the Kryptonite that's lodged into Jor-El's skull from further hurting his brain... so if mind-control wasn't already a problem, Kryptonite poisoning/sickness would be.

    cs016.jpg

    Folks have said on here that it's a "Bendis thing" to just throw out parts of continuity that he doesn't like... but if he's going to use Jor-El, a decent explanation would be nice.
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  9. #9
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    It's quite possible that if all of this is after Doomsday Clock, the explanation of Jor-El's whereabouts will be there and Superman and Lois may be involved there in that story and they are privy to info we the audience are yet unaware of. However we will see. If not, then this is a small issue and can be seen as a Bendis continuity ignore.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  10. #10
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Bendis has said after Doomsday Clock certain elements of his run would click for readers and that he hasn’t forgotten Manhattan’s role in Jor El’s return. So while Bendis could just have retconned Jor El, I’ve long thought there’s more and that the whole run is set after Doomsday Clock.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Bendis has said after Doomsday Clock certain elements of his run would click for readers and that he hasn’t forgotten Manhattan’s role in Jor El’s return. So while Bendis could just have retconned Jor El, I’ve long thought there’s more and that the whole run is set after Doomsday Clock.
    I do wonder with Bendis's run directly tying into year of the villains, that'll make it so that it can't just be Bendis's run exclusively that takes place after Doomsday Clock, but the entire current DC continuity..

  12. #12
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    What complicates everything is Doomsday Clock should be over by now, and of course Editorial and creators can't say where specific stories take place in relation to Doomsday Clock because it could be seen as spoilers to the outcome. I highly suspect that Doomsday Clock takes place Before MOS. If so it may explain a lot.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  13. #13
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    I do wonder with Bendis's run directly tying into year of the villains, that'll make it so that it can't just be Bendis's run exclusively that takes place after Doomsday Clock, but the entire current DC continuity..
    Yeah, I think the closer we get to the end of Doomsday Clock, the more likely it is that more and more books will fudge things to be afterwards. And it’s definitely likely this year of the villain stuff takes place entirely afterwards.

    The three week timeline of Bendis’ run might be part of it as well, so he can set it afterwards but not end up too far ahead when every other book catches up.
    Last edited by Yoda; 03-22-2019 at 05:24 AM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    That's only half of what's happening there, though:

    cs018.jpg

    Jor-El then gets sucked away (by "him", as Jor-El says "He's taking me"), presumably by the person who brainwashed him in the first place. And that's the last he's seen until just showing up out of nowhere to take Jon away. There's no reference to "Where've you been?" "How'd you get free?" "Are you ok?" None of it.

    The relevant part isn't that they discovered he was mind-controlled: it's that he was retaken by (again, presumably) said mind-controller. Not only that, the staff was keeping the Kryptonite that's lodged into Jor-El's skull from further hurting his brain... so if mind-control wasn't already a problem, Kryptonite poisoning/sickness would be.

    cs016.jpg

    Folks have said on here that it's a "Bendis thing" to just throw out parts of continuity that he doesn't like... but if he's going to use Jor-El, a decent explanation would be nice.
    That's a completely reasonable complaint, but I can understand why Bendis didn't want to get bogged down in clearing up the dangling plot threads of Oz Effect in Man of Steel. Fair point though.

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I've been bringing this up since MOS. It doesn't make everything squeaky clean, but it is an important element to the continuity that lots of people always forget while at the same time making the argument that Bendis is the one ignoring continuity. In some aspects he did. In some aspects so are the critics.
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