The Avengers: Cap v. Shell-Head (NO ENDGAME SPOILERS)

[DrNewGod]

This not about Civil War (cinematic or print). This is about the entire published history of The Avengers.

Cap and Iron Man have been on the team together many times. They have also each been members when the other was not. In my mind, The Avengers have been different when one is there and the other has not. Do you see differences? If so, what are they?

To be grusomely clear this is not a thread where Endgame spoilers belong . This is about the comics Avengers.

So. How are Tony's Avengers different than Steve's?

[Snoop Dogg]

80's Steve: Sure Janet, you lead and I'll support you 100%!

80's Tony: Sure Clint, you lead and I'll support you 100-- Get back here, Simon! I'll kick your ass, Williams! You stupid clown! You better be ready to die, you sonofa--

Steve on a team with a kid: Buckle up son/miss, you're an Avenger now! Playtime's over!

Tony on a team with kids: These children are mine now, I have adopted them. Harm them and prepare to die.

Steve's team sees a giant monster: Okay, here's the plan, I'll--

Tony's team sees a giant monster: SENTRY, KILL IT!!!

[MichaelC]

Well Iron Man never really lead the Avengers. So his notable moments as a team member tended to either be scientific or detective work. For example, him figuring out what Moondragon was up to when she controlled a planet, and the psi-jammer that made Drax's resistance of her telepathy possible. A detective feat followed by a scientific feat. He rarely had much effect on the team as a whole, because Stark isn't a team player. He's a super-genius who does solo stuff and brings that to the team.

Rogers actually leads the team more often than not, so he's usually the one making big inspiring speeches and telling the team to hit them hard and fast or switch up opponents.

So there's really an apples and oranges thing when comparing them, since one is a solo supergenius even when he's on a team, and the other is a born team coach.

[DrNewGod]

Well Iron Man never really lead the Avengers. So his notable moments as a team member tended to either be scientific or detective work. For example, him figuring out what Moondragon was up to when she controlled a planet, and the psi-jammer that made Drax's resistance of her telepathy possible. A detective feat followed by a scientific feat. He rarely had much effect on the team as a whole, because Stark isn't a team player. He's a super-genius who does solo stuff and brings that to the team.

Rogers actually leads the team more often than not, so he's usually the one making big inspiring speeches and telling the team to hit them hard and fast or switch up opponents.

So there's really an apples and oranges thing when comparing them, since one is a solo supergenius even when he's on a team, and the other is a born team coach.

Um... No.

Read The Serpent Crown era stories. And the mid-Busiek era stories.

[Frontier]

Now I'm just thinking of the cartoons, where in Earth's Mightiest Heroes Iron Man was the leader and public face of the team but pretty much all the successful plans or strategies came from Cap while Iron Man was lucky to last five minutes without getting taken out of the fight.

Then there's Avengers Assemble where most of the initial season plots can be summed up as:

Tony: I think this is a good idea!

Steve: I don't think that's the right move Tony.

Tony: I'll just go ahead and do it anyways!

(Five minutes later)

Tony: Well, that didn't end well!

[Alan2099]

Well Iron Man never really lead the Avengers. So his notable moments as a team member tended to either be scientific or detective work. For example, him figuring out what Moondragon was up to when she controlled a planet, and the psi-jammer that made Drax's resistance of her telepathy possible. A detective feat followed by a scientific feat. He rarely had much effect on the team as a whole, because Stark isn't a team player. He's a super-genius who does solo stuff and brings that to the team.

Rogers actually leads the team more often than not, so he's usually the one making big inspiring speeches and telling the team to hit them hard and fast or switch up opponents.

So there's really an apples and oranges thing when comparing them, since one is a solo supergenius even when he's on a team, and the other is a born team coach.

When Cap is on the Avengers, he leads the Avengers.

When Tony is on the Avengers, he tells somebody else they can lead but constantly second guesses them and still acts like he's still the boss.

[MichaelC]

Now I'm just thinking of the cartoons, where in Earth's Mightiest Heroes Iron Man was the leader and public face of the team but pretty much all the successful plans or strategies came from Cap while Iron Man was lucky to last five minutes without getting taken out of the fight.

Then there's Avengers Assemble where most of the initial season plots can be summed up as:

Tony: I think this is a good idea!

Steve: I don't think that's the right move Tony.

Tony: I'll just go ahead and do it anyways!

(Five minutes later)

Tony: Well, that didn't end well!

We must have been watching different cartoons. There were plenty of times Iron Man's genius saved the day in the cartoon I watched.

[DrNewGod]

Now I'm just thinking of the cartoons, where in Earth's Mightiest Heroes Iron Man was the leader and public face of the team but pretty much all the successful plans or strategies came from Cap while Iron Man was lucky to last five minutes without getting taken out of the fight.

Then there's Avengers Assemble where most of the initial season plots can be summed up as:

Tony: I think this is a good idea!

Steve: I don't think that's the right move Tony.

Tony: I'll just go ahead and do it anyways!

(Five minutes later)

Tony: Well, that didn't end well!

Re AMH: not so sure about that. When everybody was in contact, Iron Man was pretty firmly in control (give or take a few "Leaders Lead" moments), until Kang's invasion (where Iron Man had to do Geek Stuff while Cap got tactical). Generally, Cap would do what was necessary, but left room for Tony to be the boss, as one would expect of a soldier. IIRC, that didn't change until.deep in S2, when Tony formally handed things over.

[DrNewGod]

When Cap is on the Avengers, he leads the Avengers.

When Tony is on the Avengers, he tells somebody else they can lead but constantly second guesses them and still acts like he's still the boss.

No. There are several runs with both where Iron Man was the boss.

[Anthony W]

Now I'm just thinking of the cartoons, where in Earth's Mightiest Heroes Iron Man was the leader and public face of the team but pretty much all the successful plans or strategies came from Cap while Iron Man was lucky to last five minutes without getting taken out of the fight.

Then there's Avengers Assemble where most of the initial season plots can be summed up as:

Tony: I think this is a good idea!

Steve: I don't think that's the right move Tony.

Tony: I'll just go ahead and do it anyways!

(Five minutes later)

Tony: Well, that didn't end well!

What if I told you....that in one Avengers cartoon....HANK PYM WAS THE LEADER AND EVERYONE TRUSTED AND RESPECTED HIM! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_...ted_They_Stand

[MichaelC]

When Cap is on the Avengers, he leads the Avengers.

When Tony is on the Avengers, he tells somebody else they can lead but constantly second guesses them and still acts like he's still the boss.

In fairness, that's usually because he can see a scientific solution to the problem that others miss, and which he can probably solve himself. For example, when the Dragon of Heaven was beating the Avengers and Winter Guard at the same time, he scientifically deduced it's weakness and came up with a plan of attack that allowed him to beat it singlehandedly. Stark is quite brilliant, but he's simply not a team-player naturally. He deduces a way to solve the problem scientifically and tactically and then does whatever it takes. Teammates are kind of in the way for him, obsolete hardware that reacts too slowly and unpredictably.

[Frontier]

We must have been watching different cartoons. There were plenty of times Iron Man's genius saved the day in the cartoon I watched.

There were definitely times that Tony's smarts and intelligence helped saved the day in those cartoons, although I don't think that counts for his leadership skills (or lack there of).

Re AMH: not so sure about that. When everybody was in contact, Iron Man was pretty firmly in control (give or take a few "Leaders Lead" moments), until Kang's invasion (where Iron Man had to do Geek Stuff while Cap got tactical). Generally, Cap would do what was necessary, but left room for Tony to be the boss, as one would expect of a soldier. IIRC, that didn't change until.deep in S2, when Tony formally handed things over.

He was definitely "the leader" but more often then not in EMH it felt like he was just in that role because he helped found the team and not because he had any real leadership skills. More often then not he seemed to really struggle keeping the team together and having them actually listen to him.

[DrNewGod]

There were definitely times that Tony's smarts and intelligence helped saved the day in those cartoons, although I don't think that counts for his leadership skills (or lack there of).

He was definitely "the leader" but more often then not in EMH it felt like he was just in that role because he helped found the team and not because he had any real leadership skills. More often then not he seemed to really struggle keeping the team together and having them actually listen to him.

That doesn't mean he wasn't in charge.

Still, we're off topic. How do The Avengers differ when Cap's the boss v. when Shell-Head's the boss?

[jackolover]

That doesn't mean he wasn't in charge.

Still, we're off topic. How do The Avengers differ when Cap's the boss v. when Shell-Head's the boss?

Tony in charge? It’s cold and belligerent. Hulk had to leave because Tony was too divisive in those early days.

Cap in charge? It’s inspirational and a winner.

If you want to dissect Tony Stark in charge, he was never like the movies Robert Downey Junior. Stark was a rather dry, robot and it fit with the iron Armor.

Steve Rogers was the Joan of Arc of the Avengers. He was the one the team most needed, as the grandfather figure of super heroes, while, Iron Man was the new kid on the block as were all the Silver Agers, so he never really appreciated having his country on the brink of political dissolution by the Nazis. People respected Steve Rogers because he already had more experience than all the Silver Ages put together, who just started as simple street detectives.

Tony Stark was just trying to catch up to Rogers, and though he felt he started the Avengers, and so, thought he had seniority, (exampled in the Illuminati, Stark made himself king, and pointedly didn’t invite Steve Rogers), Stark was always trying to prove he was better than Rogers, not consciously, but always seeing Steve in Tony’s father image (Howard Stark), as being generationally imposing.

[Snoop Dogg]

Every time I think about Tony leading the Vengies, I get sad about the Tony/Sam co-lead/parenting days being over. BENDIS!