Zack Snyder on his critics: "You're living in an f-ing dreamworld!"

[Sacred Knight]

That the timeline was going to be altered and Lois didn't die doesn't mean a thing. It still means that if he lost her, he'd go evil. And that is the wrong message to send for the character. Period full stop. That's the whole issue, not whether or not the Knightmare timeline stuck. It was obvious it wouldn't.

[Vordan]

You obviously haven't heard what he actually said either. Lois Lane was going to be saved in JL by The Flash when time jumped a second time. They came up with a concept of time travel that Earth had to be in a same position in solar system from point A to point B in order to not end up in open space when opening space continuum tube. Because of that Cyborg calculated only two possible windows in order for Barry to travel back in time and end up on Earth in the Batcave. First time was BvS, it didn't work, so Snyder said that in order to undo Knightmare timeline they had to use another window at the end of the original script and a second window led to the moment right before Darkseid killed Lois to make Superman vulnerable to Anti-Life Equation.

Listen to the source before saying something, please. Biased bloggers and tweets are not doing those Q&A sessions justice.

Lao I respect that you like Snyder but try to see this from my perspective:
The last decade or so has been full of nonstop “Evil Superman vs. Good Batman” stories. These stories inevitably are about how Clark is a weak willed little ***** who can’t handle the slightest hardship. This usually takes the form of killing Lois, upon which superman breaks. This has two major negative impacts: 1. In a genre in which every hero seems to have at least one dead loved one, Superman continuously breaking makes him look unstable and weak-willed. 2. Superman instantly breaking the moment things don’t go his way makes him hypocritical, because he’s only a good man as long as life is good for him. Since Snyder loves biblical analogies allow me to use one: Superman has become a weaker Job from The Book of Job where Satan is right about him.

I hate these characterizations. I believe they are damaging to the character. I do not believe Snyder did a good job building Clark up in his movies. I believe that the route Snyder was going down would have made Superman as a character even more hated and damaged his image. I do not care that maybe at the end it would have been undone, because for the vast majority of Snyder’s movies Superman would have been evil. DCAU Superman’s turn by Darkseid was at the end of three seasons. Conversely Superman’s turn in Snyder’s films would’ve come after BvS (where I feel he is woefully undercooked compared to batman) and JL (where he spends most of the movie dead).

In an era where we still have not gotten Brainiac or Metallo or anyone besides Lex and Zod I am simply not interested in repeating the old Evil Superman stories rather than stories where Superman is a shining beacon of heroism. I’m sick of writers going “no actually Superman was the real villain all along!”

I’m sick of them killing Lois and I’m sick of Dead Lois = Evil Superman. I just can’t get on board with anyone who wants to keep trying to make that a part of Superman.

[rpmaluki]

Lao I respect that you like Snyder but try to see this from my perspective:
The last decade or so has been full of nonstop “Evil Superman vs. Good Batman” stories. These stories inevitably are about how Clark is a weak willed little ***** who can’t handle the slightest hardship. This usually takes the form of killing Lois, upon which superman breaks. This has two major negative impacts: 1. In a genre in which every hero seems to have at least one dead loved one, Superman continuously breaking makes him look unstable and weak-willed. 2. Superman instantly breaking the moment things don’t go his way makes him hypocritical, because he’s only a good man as long as life is good for him. Since Snyder loves biblical analogies allow me to use one: Superman has become a weaker Job from The Book of Job where Satan is right about him.

I hate these characterizations. I believe they are damaging to the character. I do not believe Snyder did a good job building Clark up in his movies. I believe that the route Snyder was going down would have made Superman as a character even more hated and damaged his image. I do not care that maybe at the end it would have been undone, because for the vast majority of Snyder’s movies Superman would have been evil. DCAU Superman’s turn by Darkseid was at the end of three seasons. Conversely Superman’s turn in Snyder’s films would’ve come after BvS (where I feel he is woefully undercooked compared to batman) and JL (where he spends most of the movie dead).

In an era where we still have not gotten Brainiac or Metallo or anyone besides Lex and Zod I am simply not interested in repeating the old Evil Superman stories rather than stories where Superman is a shining beacon of heroism. I’m sick of writers going “no actually Superman was the real villain all along!”

I’m sick of them killing Lois and I’m sick of Dead Lois = Evil Superman. I just can’t get on board with anyone who wants to keep trying to make that a part of Superman.

Seconded!!!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Lao I respect that you like Snyder but try to see this from my perspective:
The last decade or so has been full of nonstop “Evil Superman vs. Good Batman” stories. These stories inevitably are about how Clark is a weak willed little ***** who can’t handle the slightest hardship. This usually takes the form of killing Lois, upon which superman breaks. This has two major negative impacts: 1. In a genre in which every hero seems to have at least one dead loved one, Superman continuously breaking makes him look unstable and weak-willed. 2. Superman instantly breaking the moment things don’t go his way makes him hypocritical, because he’s only a good man as long as life is good for him. Since Snyder loves biblical analogies allow me to use one: Superman has become a weaker Job from The Book of Job where Satan is right about him.

I hate these characterizations. I believe they are damaging to the character. I do not believe Snyder did a good job building Clark up in his movies. I believe that the route Snyder was going down would have made Superman as a character even more hated and damaged his image. I do not care that maybe at the end it would have been undone, because for the vast majority of Snyder’s movies Superman would have been evil. DCAU Superman’s turn by Darkseid was at the end of three seasons. Conversely Superman’s turn in Snyder’s films would’ve come after BvS (where I feel he is woefully undercooked compared to batman) and JL (where he spends most of the movie dead).

In an era where we still have not gotten Brainiac or Metallo or anyone besides Lex and Zod I am simply not interested in repeating the old Evil Superman stories rather than stories where Superman is a shining beacon of heroism. I’m sick of writers going “no actually Superman was the real villain all along!”

I’m sick of them killing Lois and I’m sick of Dead Lois = Evil Superman. I just can’t get on board with anyone who wants to keep trying to make that a part of Superman.

Hell to the yes! Preach.

DCAU Superman is a good example of how to make Superman a shaded and nuanced character, which is about the only justification any dark take on Superman can have. He starts out as a the nice Superman, bad stuff happens to him and he gets a litte jaded. He's a little flawed but he's still a hero who does the right thing, has a sense of humor and comes through for everyone. And the DCAU Superman happened at the end of three seasons and an entire series where Darkseid has d--ked over and screwed over Earth and killed one of Superman's friends and acts like he is untouchable. So there's stakes, context, and intensity. It's not done for no reason. It was also consistent with Batman who went from a nice-ish guy in the first series to a total ******* and ends up a bitter old man none of his friends want to be caught dead with. So they played fair.

[DochaDocha]

Seconded!!!

Thirded.

I understand that Superman has a couple of things that go against modern day superhero storytelling: he's too virtuous, and he's too powerful (allegedly, anyway). Only the virtuous part applies to Captain America, but the bigger point is that Marvel has made this work, and DCEU didn't even want to try. They wanted the reductionist approach where less was (allegedly, anyway) more, a compromised version of Superman. Maybe I'm happier with a Superman on the sidelines.

[Vordan]

Thirded.

I understand that Superman has a couple of things that go against modern day superhero storytelling: he's too virtuous, and he's too powerful (allegedly, anyway). Only the virtuous part applies to Captain America, but the bigger point is that Marvel has made this work, and DCEU didn't even want to try. They wanted the reductionist approach where less was (allegedly, anyway) more, a compromised version of Superman. Maybe I'm happier with a Superman on the sidelines.

“Too virtuous” doesn’t work when we have Captain America and WW with very optimistic outlooks and faith in mankind’s inner virtues succeeding at the box office, and “too powerful” doesn’t work when Thor, Captain Marvel, and now Shazam all star Superman-tier heroes and yet still manage to be huge box office successes. Supes has guys like Mongul who are just as powerful as him and bring in locales like Warworld which would be amazing to see on screen. Supes has guys like Metallo and Parasite who have powers that cancel out his. Supes has guys like General Lane, Conduit, and Maxima that complicate his personal and love life. How about using them?

But I kind of agree with you. No one even wants to try to make a Superman movie anymore. I guess I’ll just keeping hoping for more animated films becaus ethat seems to be the only non-comic media that treats him well.

[stargazer01]

Its always rushed. Hell I'd argue it was rushed even in the Donner films. And to a degree I get the conundrum. A film is circa two hours, and you're trying to adapt a nearly century year old pairing. But, all the same, that doesn't necessitate rushing. I long for some filmmaker to understand that they can still have an intriguing dynamic and good chemistry without having to rush them being in love with one another at first sight. It just doesn't work in a movie.

With all that said, I'll take rushing any day over an Injustice-like idea.

Superman the Movie and Man of Steel both 'rushed' the romance, but the leads had chemistry, IMO, so I bought it to a point (Wonder Woman did the same thing in her movie with Trevor). At least Superman didn't turn back time in Man of Steel for Lois. Even the animated movies rush the romance, but as long as they show then to have chemistry, I buy and enjoy it. Death of Superman just did it and it worked. We need a TV show in order to do it more slowly.

I think Superman is supposed to be so incredible, attractive and awesome, that even Lois can't help falling hard for him. Wouldn't you?

That the timeline was going to be altered and Lois didn't die doesn't mean a thing. It still means that if he lost her, he'd go evil. And that is the wrong message to send for the character. Period full stop. That's the whole issue, not whether or not the Knightmare timeline stuck. It was obvious it wouldn't.

Exactly. Why can't some people get this? If you love Superman, do you really want this for him?? I'm sorry but you simply can't defend Snyder after this. It's impossible.

Lao I respect that you like Snyder but try to see this from my perspective:
The last decade or so has been full of nonstop “Evil Superman vs. Good Batman” stories. These stories inevitably are about how Clark is a weak willed little ***** who can’t handle the slightest hardship. This usually takes the form of killing Lois, upon which superman breaks. This has two major negative impacts: 1. In a genre in which every hero seems to have at least one dead loved one, Superman continuously breaking makes him look unstable and weak-willed. 2. Superman instantly breaking the moment things don’t go his way makes him hypocritical, because he’s only a good man as long as life is good for him. Since Snyder loves biblical analogies allow me to use one: Superman has become a weaker Job from The Book of Job where Satan is right about him.

I hate these characterizations. I believe they are damaging to the character. I do not believe Snyder did a good job building Clark up in his movies. I believe that the route Snyder was going down would have made Superman as a character even more hated and damaged his image. I do not care that maybe at the end it would have been undone, because for the vast majority of Snyder’s movies Superman would have been evil. DCAU Superman’s turn by Darkseid was at the end of three seasons. Conversely Superman’s turn in Snyder’s films would’ve come after BvS (where I feel he is woefully undercooked compared to batman) and JL (where he spends most of the movie dead).

In an era where we still have not gotten Brainiac or Metallo or anyone besides Lex and Zod I am simply not interested in repeating the old Evil Superman stories rather than stories where Superman is a shining beacon of heroism. I’m sick of writers going “no actually Superman was the real villain all along!”

I’m sick of them killing Lois and I’m sick of Dead Lois = Evil Superman. I just can’t get on board with anyone who wants to keep trying to make that a part of Superman.

Great post.

[SiegePerilous02]

God, Whedon and WB really did do us a favor in the long run. As terrible as JL is, it's easier for the characters to come back from this (even if it has to be without the actors) than it would be for the alternative.

Weak willed Superman needing Lois to not go evil sucks for both characters. That **** needs to stop. I still have some affection for MOS, as divisive as it is, but knowing that THIS was the endgame all along for that is gonna taint it even more.

[Sacred Knight]

For some reason I was less annoyed when I thought the whole Batman, rushed JL, evil Superman thing was more of a change in plan. That when MOS was in production, while it was still meant to be a springboard to the EU like Iron Man was, it wasn't supposed to be as stupid fast as hijacking a proper MOS sequel and other character solos to jump rifght into things wiht the very next picture. Knowing that isn't the case, that it was the plan all along to go that dumb route, just makes it more vexing. I guess maybe its because I know now that they never had a clue, and that Cavill and other good things were going to be wasted from the very word go.

[Darkcrusade25]

The weak will Superman enforces the idea that Superman doesn't have his own moral compass and strength and that he's the muscle of the DCU. Which is not true at all.

That whole con was just Synder trying to prove he wasn't alone in his idea. Man, I can't even look at MoS now seeing all the dumb ideas he was trying to do.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Vordan's point that nobody is even trying to do a Superman movie is really what this is about.

They don't care for his character and setting. The work many writers, including some of the greats (Siegel, Binder, Weisinger, Conway, Moore, Stern, Jurgens, Morrison, Waid, and also the DCAU writing team, including Alan Burnett, Paul Dini, Dwayne McDuffie) have done in fleshing him out.

All Snyder did was remake the Donner films and put his own edgelord spin on it.

[madmodpoetgod]

I hate that the death of Lois equals Superman goes nuts.
It must be the opposite.... The death of Lois would only turn him kind of a quiet-melancholy God, not destructive evil.

[Flash Gordon]

Lois Lane doesn't even get to be a character. Just an object that gets fridged for the sad Superman scenes and/or needs to be saved in order for Superman to be nice again. She's literally just a plot device.

Not only is it poorly constructed edgelord crap, it's disgusting. Amy Adams is way too good an actress for this kind of nonsense. What a wasteeeeeeeeee.

[Slim Shady]

Him leaving was the best thing to happen to DCU. It took great Wonder Woman and Aquaman films to dig them out the hole Snyder put them in. If he stayed and his vision had got carried out, I’m don’t think even WW and AQ could’ve saved it.

[Kuwagaton]

I feel like I need to meet Dan Jurgens in person and thank him for giving me a second shot with Superman. My first experience with Supes was with this guy but I just cant see Supes the way he did anymore.

Funny enough Jurgens was a rare pro in not being harsh about the movie, and he's written more Superman than pretty much anyone else combined.

Lao I respect that you like Snyder but try to see this from my perspective:
The last decade or so has been full of nonstop “Evil Superman vs. Good Batman” stories. These stories inevitably are about how Clark is a weak willed little ***** who can’t handle the slightest hardship. This usually takes the form of killing Lois, upon which superman breaks. This has two major negative impacts: 1. In a genre in which every hero seems to have at least one dead loved one, Superman continuously breaking makes him look unstable and weak-willed. 2. Superman instantly breaking the moment things don’t go his way makes him hypocritical, because he’s only a good man as long as life is good for him. Since Snyder loves biblical analogies allow me to use one: Superman has become a weaker Job from The Book of Job where Satan is right about him.

I think there are some commonly amalgamated tropes that are exaggerated in frequency according to how much they irritate people. I also think that for whatever Snyder did touch on, he obviously doesn't hate the character and shouldn't be judged for using colorful language in an irreverent anecdotal fashion or not being pleased however seriously about the endless criticisms for those projects. If he didn't please you when he tried, he might as well not try.