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  1. #391
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Really? Just weeks before the release. I wouldn't be surprised if they went behind his back. The guy was kicked out when he was going through his personal ordeal. So, much for keeping zack's vision. They made a whole different movie. Justice league was hollow. Superman was a lifeless caricature. You cansay what you want about zack's clark. That he was passive. That he just lacks resilience and charm. But, it ain't a caricature. . If they wanted a safe popcorn flick. They should have never hired him in the first place. The guy always swings for the fences. Even if it doesn't work.
    That was Justice League.

    The cuts we got of BvS were his. He cut more than 30 minutes of scenes from MOS, that wasn't edited by WB either.

    It's common for studios to ask directors to trim their movies for theatrical release but it is rare for them to do it without the director's involvement.

  2. #392
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    That was Justice League.

    The cuts we got of BvS were his. He cut more than 30 minutes of scenes from MOS, that wasn't edited by WB either.

    It's common for studios to ask directors to trim their movies for theatrical release but it is rare for them to do it without the director's involvement.
    I don't buy that for a second. Being asked to cut down a movie weeks before it's release screams meddling. It isn't much of a standard practise. They did something to ayers suicide squad as well. The only cuts that were made where of clark. And the suits said they gave a standing ovation for batman. So, there is that. I am not going to sit here and say zack snyder hates superman.that would be blatant accusation that has no evidence . He has read more superman than most people(even creatives) . He wouldn't have if he didn't like anything about the character. He wanted to build a world that centered around superman. Which is more than i can say for bruce timm or anyone else in the past decades. He even made batman a freaking villain. That is saying something . Anyone who thinks zack snyder hasn't read any superman or taken inspirations is ignorant.

  3. #393
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't buy that for a second. Being asked to cut down a movie weeks before it's release screams meddling.
    He still chose what to cut. His preferred cut was the Ultimate Cut but the theatrical cut was still his.

    Snyder has talked about this. The ultimate cut was his final cut of the movie but Warner Bros wanted him to make it shorter, so he edited it down to the theatrical cut. You can believe what you want but you're wrong.

    He was asked to shorten it so he did. They did not take it away from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It isn't much of a standard practise. They did something to ayers suicide squad as well.
    The cut of Suicide Squad we got was edited by a company that made movie trailers.

    Two different situations. What happened to Ayer was not standard practice because the director wasn't involved with the final cut of the movie at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    The only cuts that were made where of clark. And the suits said they gave a standing ovation for batman. So, there is that. I am not going to sit here and say zack snyder hates superman.that would be blatant accusation that has no evidence . He has read more superman than most people(even creatives) . He wouldn't have if he didn't like anything about the character. He wanted to build a world that centered around superman. Which is more than i can say for bruce timm or anyone else in the past decades. He even made batman a freaking villain. That is saying something . Anyone who thinks zack snyder hasn't read any superman or taken inspirations is ignorant.
    I didn't say anything about Zack Snyder hating Superman or not reading Superman comics so go tell that stuff to someone who did.
    Last edited by Superbat; 10-21-2019 at 05:35 AM.

  4. #394
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    He still chose what to cut. His preferred cut was the Ultimate Cut but the theatrical cut was still his.

    Snyder has talked about this. The ultimate cut was his final cut of the movie but Warner Bros wanted him to make it shorter, so he edited it down to the theatrical cut. You can believe what you want but you're wrong.

    He was asked to shorten it so he did. They did not take it away from him.



    The cut of Suicide Squad we got was edited by a company that made movie trailers.

    Two different situations. What happened to Ayer was not standard practice because the director wasn't involved with the final cut of the movie at all.



    I didn't say anything about Zack Snyder hating Superman or not reading Superman comics so go tell that stuff to someone who did.
    To make cuts like that you need to pretty much not care about clark. That is the opposite of the guy who read that much Superman. Snyder might have been diplomatic. Snyder didn't come out guns blazing after he got kicked out either.

  5. #395
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    To make cuts like that you need to pretty much not care about clark. That is the opposite of the guy who read that much Superman. Snyder might have been diplomatic. Snyder didn't come out guns blazing after he got kicked out either.
    You have to be a bad director, which is what Snyder is.

    Snyder said he trimmed BvS at the request of the studio in the same Q & A he said his critics were living in a dream world.

  6. #396
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    You have to be a bad director, which is what Snyder is.

    Snyder said he trimmed BvS at the request of the studio in the same Q & A he said his critics were living in a dream world.
    I am not qualified enough to be a judge of that or to say that. He has done some movies. I have enjoyed. Man of steel,bvs are ok. They are just not for me.

  7. #397
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I thought the whole thing with Zod would make an excellent reason for Clark to develop a no kill code. I mean, from Clark's perspective that was a hell of a thing. He chose earth over Krypton, yeah, but Zod was still one of the only remaining members of Clark's race. Their people got that much closer to total extinction because Clark had to kill the guy. That's something I dont think any of us can really wrap our heads around. And for Clark, with his senses, having to watch all signs of life leave Zod's body must have made it much harder.

    I'd much rather see Clark go through something like this and say "Yeah, I'm not doing that again. I'm the gods damn Superman and I'll find other options!" than him just saying "killing is icky and I want to be a good person so I'm not gonna do it!"

    I mean, ultimately its kinda moot, because Clark kills when he has to, code or no code. But if he's gonna get a hair across his ass about the topic, having to kill Zod and drive his people closer to extinction is far better motivation than simple, all-purpose morals. No decent person *wants* to take a life. Clark saying he doesn't want to kill people is.....that's not a sign of nobility, it's a sign of common decency that most people share. It doesn't set him apart, and most people who don't want to take a life don't make a big oath about it. If Clark's gonna have such a clear-cut rule for himself, he needs a reason for that beyond "decent person." But like I said, he kills when he must anyway so whatever.
    For cinematic narrative, what you're talking about makes total sense for at least two reasons: character growth, and setup for future dramatic tension. In the end, I think people could have gotten behind that. Have the next film's tension be how to stop someone when it seems like you have no choice but you've vowed never to take that path again. Almost writes itself. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, I lost almost all hope as soon as we knew Batman was showing up. I've become kind of a jaded bastard, I guess.

    I held out a tiny bit of hope that Snyder would pull it off. I really enjoyed MoS (warts and all) so I was crossing my fingers, but.....deep down, I knew things were going off the rails as soon as they announced the name of the film.

    But before that? When we thought we were getting a MoS-2? Oh yes. Very naive. Very hopeful.
    I thought I had no hope after MoS.... until BvS was announced. Then I knew these people didn't have the first clue as to what they were doing. Terrio made me rethink, but I should have listened to my gut and stayed home.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't know if the novelization is correct or canon. All i can do is go by the movie. In the movie, it wasn't just kryptonIans that were getting sucked in. even lois was going. Hamilton and other military guys were going away as well. It just seems wierd to create a singularity and not be killed. If that thing was stable. It has the capacity to eat the entire planet i believe. I don't think snyder planned for the emil to ever return.
    Things that were very close were sucked in - and Hamilton/etc were dead from the explosion, iirc - but I never thought of it as anything but an opening into the Phantom Zone.

    I don't know. Maybe. For me, this guy mopes around too much as is. him sitting in a room, seeing ghosts.. Etc. I just don't think he needs to have that kind of journey. He doesn't have a no kill code. He is essentially like gohan in dragon ball. My favourite part in dbz was gohan letting go after android 16 asks him to let go and gets destroyed by cell. I would argue that i have never seen a character who values life more than gohan and android 16.when android 16 says to let it go. It meant something. It doesn't mean he has thrown away his morality. It is quite the opposite his morality is what fuelled him to make that choice. Whining about making that choice would have disrespected not only goku's sacrifice but android 16's as well. To me android 16 is more a living being than whatever cell is.
    I get where you're coming from, believe me - and in Snyder's hands, it probably would have looked like 140 minutes of moping. lol All I'm saying is that these things don't have to be presented like that to have weight and significance. If done right, it could be both a powerful story and a means of showing personal growth in Clark. But yeah.. probably would've needed a completely different production team, lol!

    When it's power. It feels like he is cheating. Goku is also born great. He also hit the genetic lottery. But, the character is always pushing at perfecting his craft. Clark constantly getting more powerful with sunbathing has become tiresome. He is not just reporter. He debuted in "action" comics not reporters comics or something. He is essentially an action hero. I have never see anyone say Superman is inspirational when it comes to phyical training.some just view him as a reporter. But, i would argue clark had the athletic strongman aspect before the reporter gig. Clark can be like plants. He eats sunlight. It helps clark get stronger like goid food does a human. That's it.
    But I just said that the sunbathing thing isn't used much. And it isn't. But one reason why Clark isn't seen as much of a strongman in his own right is that most cinematic interpretations focus too much on the Jesus-imagery and not enough on the pure power fantasy. Superman (as a concept) needs those moments so that feeling of strength and (moreso) knowing how to use it is there. When those aren't there, he can be very strong (and even show it, a bit) and still "feel" weak to the viewer. But if you're after Superman needing a training montage ala Batman... I think you're probably going to be disappointed, overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Really? Just weeks before the release. I wouldn't be surprised if they went behind his back. The guy was kicked out when he was going through his personal ordeal. So, much for keeping zack's vision. They made a whole different movie. Justice league was hollow. Superman was a lifeless caricature. You cansay what you want about zack's clark. That he was passive. That he just lacks resilience and charm. But, it ain't a caricature. . If they wanted a safe popcorn flick. They should have never hired him in the first place. The guy always swings for the fences. Even if it doesn't work.
    Snyder said they didn't, and he's not a guy to mince words with that stuff (not now, at least). So BvS, both versions, are his. I will say again, though, that I agree that WB made a mistake in hiring him. They don't know the first thing about how to market the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    To make cuts like that you need to pretty much not care about clark. That is the opposite of the guy who read that much Superman.
    I think the Clark cuts were done because the time was needed to (in their minds) establish Bruce and the BvS conflict - but I agree that it betrays a lack of preference for Clark.
    Last edited by JAK; 10-21-2019 at 03:30 PM.
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  8. #398
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    But I just said that the sunbathing thing isn't used much. And it isn't. But one reason why Clark isn't seen as much of a strongman in his own right is that most cinematic interpretations focus too much on the Jesus-imagery and not enough on the pure power fantasy. Superman (as a concept) needs those moments so that feeling of strength and (moreso) knowing how to use it is there. When those aren't there, he can be very strong (and even show it, a bit) and still "feel" weak to the viewer. But if you're after Superman needing a training montage ala Batman... I think you're probably going to be disappointed, overall.
    .
    But, i feel goldenage guy and allmight do have those moments without needing the sun. Those moments in the sun doesn't require the guy to take something from sun to further himself. And It's not a training montage,I am after. Superman never had much of that. Neither does allmight. But, there was always that struggle aspect and that resilience to go beyond without any external factors. Just pure will. I just don't see that often now. Snyder and zack snyder had given that moment to clark when he was trying to take off in that jl and man of steel movie . But, then it went right back to sun dipping in jl book. It spoils the fun you know. Nobody ever questions allmight power because it feels earned.the guys gets bloody beat and still smiles. He comes back and says "go beyond! Plus ultra". Gives it everything he's got. I am looking for something like what king does in his book in regards in his superman book. The guy got his stuffing beat out of him in the boxing match and he was sweating hard to beat barry. I want more of those things.

  9. #399
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    That was Justice League.

    The cuts we got of BvS were his. He cut more than 30 minutes of scenes from MOS, that wasn't edited by WB either.

    It's common for studios to ask directors to trim their movies for theatrical release but it is rare for them to do it without the director's involvement.
    I think WB asked Snyder to cut 30 mins of BvS, though (Superman/Clark scenes...). Snyder's cut was 3 hours

  10. #400
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    But, i feel goldenage guy and allmight do have those moments without needing the sun. Those moments in the sun doesn't require the guy to take something from sun to further himself. And It's not a training montage,I am after. Superman never had much of that. Neither does allmight. But, there was always that struggle aspect and that resilience to go beyond without any external factors. Just pure will. I just don't see that often now. Snyder and zack snyder had given that moment to clark when he was trying to take off in that jl and man of steel movie . But, then it went right back to sun dipping in jl book. It spoils the fun you know. Nobody ever questions allmight power because it feels earned.the guys gets bloody beat and still smiles. He comes back and says "go beyond! Plus ultra". Gives it everything he's got. I am looking for something like what king does in his book in regards in his superman book. The guy got his stuffing beat out of him in the boxing match and he was sweating hard to beat barry. I want more of those things.
    OH. Gotcha. There's a bit of this in early Post-Crisis as well, actually. I'd be ok with this, at least at times. It just depends on what he's up against. Some foes will have to be more of a mental struggle than a physical one, but I have no problem with seeing more of this.

    Some things would be harder to do that with, though, and maybe those should be what sun-dipping is for: faster flight, stronger heat vision, etc. Because you can't really "train" your way to doing those things.

    All that said, I'm still not sure it'll change how people see Superman. But it could be worth a shot.
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  11. #401
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    For cinematic narrative, what you're talking about makes total sense for at least two reasons: character growth, and setup for future dramatic tension. In the end, I think people could have gotten behind that. Have the next film's tension be how to stop someone when it seems like you have no choice but you've vowed never to take that path again. Almost writes itself. lol
    Oh, I know.

    I thought had no hope after MoS.... until BvS was announced. Then I knew these people didn't have the first clue as to what they were doing. Terrio made me rethink, but I should have listened to my gut and stayed home.
    I was like that with Justice League. I *knew* better. I *knew* it was gonna be awful. But my wife and son wanted to go and I was like "what if it's actually good? I don't want to miss that with my family!" Stupid Ascended, I should've stayed home and enjoyed some peace and quiet.
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  12. #402
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I was like that with Justice League. I *knew* better. I *knew* it was gonna be awful. But my wife and son wanted to go and I was like "what if it's actually good? I don't want to miss that with my family!" Stupid Ascended, I should've stayed home and enjoyed some peace and quiet.
    lol! I had the opposite reaction with JL. I went specifically because of Snyder leaving, Whedon stepping in and all the "lightened tone" talk, and as bad as JL was, I at least got a few moments of catharsis for having sat and/or b!+c#ed through BvS in the theater and 5 minutes of a watchable Superman. That alone was worth the price of admission for me, and I was so happy with that, I couldn't care less about the rest. lol
    Last edited by JAK; 10-21-2019 at 03:32 PM.
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  13. #403
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, I lost almost all hope as soon as we knew Batman was showing up. I've become kind of a jaded bastard, I guess.

    I held out a tiny bit of hope that Snyder would pull it off. I really enjoyed MoS (warts and all) so I was crossing my fingers, but.....deep down, I knew things were going off the rails as soon as they announced the name of the film.

    But before that? When we thought we were getting a MoS-2? Oh yes. Very naive. Very hopeful.
    I was still hyped because I was distracted by being intrigued about the Affleck casting and getting Wonder Woman period. In hindsight, with the end result having WW being the only MVP in a film she doesn't really need to be in, things were much more ominous than I realized.

    I also stupidly assumed we'd still get an MOS 2 as well, so that'll learn me.


    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    lol! I had the opposite reaction with JL. I went specifically because of Snyder leaving, Whedon stepping in and all the "lightened tone" talk, and as bad as JL was, I at least got a few moments of catharsis for having sat and/or b!+c#ed through BvS in the theater and 5 minutes of a watchable Superman. That alone was worth the price of admission for me, and I was so happy with that, I couldn't care less about the rest. lol
    But then you had to listen to everyone claiming Superman ruined the movie because he was so much more awesome than everyone else.
    Despite the fact that, with the possible exception of Wonder Woman, that scuffle between him and the League went down exactly as it should have.

  14. #404
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh, the few moments of gold we got in JL were definitely cathartic as hell. That League fight I could watch over and over again. But after sitting through BvS and seeing them waste all the potential MoS left them? Nah, still bitter.
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  15. #405
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I was still hyped because I was distracted by being intrigued about the Affleck casting and getting Wonder Woman period. In hindsight, with the end result having WW being the only MVP in a film she doesn't really need to be in, things were much more ominous than I realized.

    I also stupidly assumed we'd still get an MOS 2 as well, so that'll learn me.
    I am the proverbial "canary in the coal mine," it would seem - I didn't "call" all of this happening until JL2 because I thought JL having never been done before would have been WB's final cinematic security blanket (much as Batman and Superman was BvS's because "it had never been done before"), but other than that I had the basic trajectory of all this pegged the second my MoS screening was finished in 2013.

    But then you had to listen to everyone claiming Superman ruined the movie because he was so much more awesome than everyone else.
    Despite the fact that, with the possible exception of Wonder Woman, that scuffle between him and the League went down exactly as it should have.
    LOL! Funny enough, most of the people I know (fans and non-fans) said Superman was the one thing they liked about the movie and kept it from being as much of a terrible experience. And I was hearing it in enough places that I had a tiny bit of hope that maybe.. MAYBE.. WB would take the lesson to go that route with Superman and continue. But...nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh, the few moments of gold we got in JL were definitely cathartic as hell. That League fight I could watch over and over again. But after sitting through BvS and seeing them waste all the potential MoS left them? Nah, still bitter.
    HA! Same. Well, clearly so - given that I've sparked this thread to go....oh... how many extra pages now? lol
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