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  1. #616
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    YES lol. I actually do think that Snyder wants us to see Superman as Jesus:
    Attachment 89363

    And the difference between the DCAU and this was that Timm and Dini made sure to put DCAU Superman in the same position as Justice Lord Superman, to show that he wouldn’t make the same choice. That was DCAU Superman’s redeeming moment. DCEU Superman wasn’t going to be that. He was going to go evil and be the ONLY one to fall. You don’t see how that would just pile on the damage Injustice did of making Supes look weak? Add to that, BATMAN was going to save the day, Superman was never going to get that redeeming moment, because it was going to be an erased timeline. If Lois dies DCEU Superman would still go evil so let’s hope Joker doesn’t pay Supes a visit post Batman’s death or everyone is screwed.

    I’ve had this argument so many times and it never changes anything.
    I am well aware of that vero post. i can tell you that doesn't negate anything i said. It only reinforces it. If you want to take it literally go ahead. I've got nothing to say to you on that.
    How do you know Snyder wasn't doing the same? We never got to see it mate. Dude, you make it seem like snyder hates superman or something . I can tell you he has read more superman than most who ape of donner. If he hated superman he wouldn't be able to. He has read more superman than me. So, he might be bigger fan than me. That might not be much. But,It's preposterous to think that he has an agenda against superman. First you say snyder wants us to believe superman is jesus. Then you say snyder wants us to believe superman is injustice superman aka the fallen devil. Which is it? Or do you think snyder wants this to be story of lucifer or something?

  2. #617
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Maybe the issue isn't that Snyder doesn't dislike Superman, but fans who hate his work think that Snyder (and WB) just didn't have a good plan for Superman. And since we've made DCAU parallels, the same argument has often been made about Bruce Timm.

  3. #618
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am well aware of that vero post. i can tell you that doesn't negate anything i said. It only reinforces it. If you want to take it literally go ahead. I've got nothing to say to you on that.
    How do you know Snyder wasn't doing the same? We never got to see it mate. Dude, you make it seem like snyder hates superman or something . I can tell you he has read more superman than most who ape of donner. If he hated superman he wouldn't be able to. He has read more superman than me. So, he might be bigger fan than me. That might not be much. But,It's preposterous to think that he has an agenda against superman. First you say snyder wants us to believe superman is jesus. Then you say snyder wants us to believe superman is injustice superman aka the fallen devil. Which is it? Or do you think snyder wants this to be story of lucifer or something?
    I’ve heard this before but never seen a source. Do you have one? The only thing I remember about Snyder’s Superman readings was people asked him what his favorite Superman story was and he couldn’t name one. By his own recollection he never really liked Big 2 superheroes, he preferred Watchman and Heavy Metal because they had sex and violence.
    http://www.ew.com/article/2008/07/17...-zack-snyder/3
    No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, ”This is more my scene.”
    Lmao holy **** I forgot this interview, God it’s bloody perfect as an explanation for what went wrong with the DCEU.

    Edit: I don’t think Snyder hates Superman like I’m convinced Netherealms Studios hates him. I just think he had bad ideas about what to do with Superman, just like lots of comic book writers who have tried to “update” him.
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-14-2019 at 01:57 PM.

  4. #619
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Maybe the issue isn't that Snyder doesn't dislike Superman, but fans who hate his work think that Snyder (and WB) just didn't have a good plan for Superman. And since we've made DCAU parallels, the same argument has often been made about Bruce Timm.
    That's fair. I can get behind that criticism. But, we don't exactly know what snyder was going to do. I mean the complaint he literally doesn't follow the expectations . Snyder doesn't exactly copy things. He spins it his own way. All we know is antilife equation is involved. Superman in the main universe hasn't much resisted that. He has even been taken over by just eclipso. Here, it was said that the only reason antilife was effective is because he was at a low point. Otherwise, darkseid wouldn't have been able to. Keep in mind this is an alternate timeline.

  5. #620
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I’ve heard this before but never seen a source. Do you have one? The only thing I remember about Snyder’s Superman readings was people asked him what his favorite Superman story was and he couldn’t name one. By his own recollection he never really liked Big 2 superheroes, he preferred Watchman and Heavy Metal because they had sex and violence.
    http://www.ew.com/article/2008/07/17...-zack-snyder/3
    Lmao holy **** I forgot this interview, God it’s bloody perfect as an explanation for what went wrong with the DCEU.

    Edit: I don’t think Snyder hates Superman like I’m convinced Netherealms Studios hates him. I just think he had bad ideas about what to do with Superman, just like lots of comic book writers who have tried to “update” him.
    Dude, seeing man of steel itself can give you the answer to that. Look at all the things he included. There was a whole thread regarding some member in the dc forums calling morrison's superman not superman. He also made the comparison with dceu superman. Those are not comparable versions . In it we basically pull a list of things snyder pulled from including the goldenage. How can anyone include something with out reading it?Year one, Byrne man of steel, For tomorrow, birthright, secret origins, for all seasons, all star superman .. Etc the list goes on.

  6. #621
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Dude, seeing man of steel itself can give you the answer to that. Look at all the things he included. There was a whole thread regarding some member in the dc forums calling morrison's superman not superman. He also made the comparison with dceu superman. Those are not comparable versions . In it we basically pull a list of things snyder pulled from including the goldenage. How can anyone include something with out reading it?Year one, Byrne man of steel, For tomorrow, birthright, secret origins, for all seasons, all star superman .. Etc the list goes on.
    That was David Goyer. He pitched MoS and wrote the script before Snyder was hired as a director. If you go back to the old interviews, he often took credit for it and the obscure references like the Rondor beast at the beginning of the movie.

  7. #622
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    That was David Goyer. He pitched MoS and wrote the script before Snyder was hired as a director. If you go back to the old interviews, he often took credit for it and the obscure references like the Rondor beast at the beginning of the movie.
    Hmm! That might be true.i mean, he is the writer. But, snyder manages to get even visual right. I am not willing to bet snyder didn't read the above.Also, snyder and timm did that 75th anniversary tribute thing if i remember correctly. That had lots of references.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-14-2019 at 02:24 PM.

  8. #623
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I am well aware of that vero post. i can tell you that doesn't negate anything i said. It only reinforces it. If you want to take it literally go ahead. I've got nothing to say to you on that.
    How do you know Snyder wasn't doing the same? We never got to see it mate. Dude, you make it seem like snyder hates superman or something . I can tell you he has read more superman than most who ape of donner. If he hated superman he wouldn't be able to. He has read more superman than me. So, he might be bigger fan than me. That might not be much. But,It's preposterous to think that he has an agenda against superman. First you say snyder wants us to believe superman is jesus. Then you say snyder wants us to believe superman is injustice superman aka the fallen devil. Which is it? Or do you think snyder wants this to be story of lucifer or something?
    He wanted Superman to be both. That's how confused his idea was, even though it's the kind of thing that a studio exec would think is "genius". But the whole distance thing with Superman in the clouds at the start of BvS, how Superman's arms were as he flew out of Zod's ship in MoS, the spear, all these things, they're all Jesus imagery. Superman, in parts and ways, was absolutely meant to be a Jesus allegory. It's not just obvious in it's execution, it's borderline obnoxious. It was almost as obnoxious in Superman Returns, to be fair, and there's even a hefty dash of it in the Donnerverse.

    As for how much he's read... that's not a blanket excuse to wash away what he did. DC has read a lot of Superman, too, and they also make horrible decisions with the character. I don't think he has an agenda to take down Superman - he's just a deconstructionist guy with an eye for "cool" visuals (he is a talented visual action director) and that needs a balance to work well with Superman. What he takes from the character is (obviously) not what the average person does, and that might have been ok if he could have sold them on what he sees. And that didn't happen, at least not with enough people (fans and general audience alike) to make the movies worth continuing in WB's eyes (because while none of them, imo, understand Superman, they do understand when something's making as much money as it should).


    I will say, to his credit, that he did have a hand in the 75th animated short. And THAT was very good. But it was also very short, had no dialogue or message beyond Superman through the years, and was meant as a tribute to the character's history. So it was all about visuals, which plays to Snyder's strengths very well. You can also see a lot of the Timm influence too. I'd love a breakdown of who all did what, because that was very well done.
    Last edited by JAK; 11-14-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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  9. #624
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Even if Snyder added those little Easter eggs, it's just superficial and not an indicator by itself that he knows what he is doing or has good ideas for the character overall.

    He excels in those brief, dialogue-less montages set to music with visuals. The opening to Watchmen is great for this very reason. Hell, the beginning of Sucker Punch was great as well. It's sustaining that over a narrative that he has trouble with.

    And DC and WB no doubt have read a of Superman comics, but we know they screw the pooch a lot. Even more so with Wonder Woman.

  10. #625
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    He wanted Superman to be both. That's how confused his idea was, even though it's the kind of thing that a studio exec would think is "genius". But the whole distance thing with Superman in the clouds at the start of BvS, how Superman's arms were as he flew out of Zod's ship in MoS, the spear, all these things, they're all Jesus imagery. Superman, in parts and ways, was absolutely meant to be a Jesus allegory. It's not just obvious in it's execution, it's borderline obnoxious. It was almost as obnoxious in Superman Returns, to be fair, and there's even a hefty dash of it in the Donnerverse.

    As for how much he's read... that's not a blanket excuse to wash away what he did. DC has read a lot of Superman, too, and they also make horrible decisions with the character. I don't think he has an agenda to take down Superman - he's just a deconstructionist guy with an eye for "cool" visuals (he is a talented visual action director) and that needs a balance to work well with Superman. What he takes from the character is (obviously) not what the average person does, and that might have been ok if he could have sold them on what he sees. And that didn't happen, at least not with enough people (fans and general audience alike) to make the movies worth continuing in WB's eyes (because while none of them, imo, understand Superman, they do understand when something's making as much money as it should).


    I will say, to his credit, that he did have a hand in the 75th animated short. And THAT was very good. But it was also very short, had no dialogue or message beyond Superman through the years, and was meant as a tribute to the character's history. So it was all about visuals, which plays to Snyder's strengths very well. You can also see a lot of the Timm influence too. I'd love a breakdown of who all did what, because that was very well done.
    How can he be both? How can anyone think that is genius? Jesus imagery was just to show how wrong it is. It is just our expectation. It even says it in the dialogue. Even after all that you want to go ahead with that. Go on.
    Also, what did he do? He made a movie about a character in his style and with his leanings That many hate and many love . Like hundreds of writers haven't done that already.What a horrible sin! As for being deconstructionist, every version of superman exists because it tore down the prior version. because here ideas are replaced not even supplemented. The reason is people have a notion of 'real' or 'main' or 'classic' superman. That can only be one. People just don't generally feel it because its a gradual thing(except byrne reboot and new52. Those two did the same function but faster). But the truth is it doesn't have to be that way. There are many versions of the characters. Some have even killed. Accept the versions for what it is. Say that you are more a fan of this than that. Let the others enjoy theirs.

  11. #626
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Edit: Forget it.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-14-2019 at 09:35 PM.

  12. #627
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Edit: That was unkind of me.
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-14-2019 at 03:53 PM.

  13. #628
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Edit: That was unkind of me.
    Finally, a draft of BvS's script I can get behind.

  14. #629
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How can he be both?
    It can be both because it's an allegory and not a direct 1-for-1. But it doesn't work because it's too confused about what it wants to be. Much like Batman being a kind of "bad guy" in BvS while having his actions glorified via the visual representation. There may be a point, but it doesn't know what it wants to be (or at least conflicts with it's narrative).

    How can anyone think that is genius?
    Jon Peters thought a giant spider in the Nic Cage Superman movie was genius. Studio execs and producers aren't always the smartest people in the room - which was exactly why I said that. If you watch the "writer's room" scenes from "The Majestic" you'll get a decent idea of how they come up with this crazy stuff.

    Jesus imagery was just to show how wrong it is. It is just our expectation.
    So then the shots should have been directly juxtaposed in those same scenes, using things that subvert that expectation, not things that feed into it. Him flying like a god over the people reaching up to him is a great example. If he wants to subvert expectation to show it's wrong: he should it right away, exactly then. He shouldn't feed into it and then wonder why the audience didn't all follow. That's filmmaking 101. Heck, I could rewrite a way to do exactly that in about 5 minutes and I didn't go to school for filmmaking. It's not that hard, imo. But Snyder tends to lean toward things that look epic, even if they conflict with the narrative - he has a great visual eye, but sometimes needs someone (imo) to reign that in to focus on the point that needs to be made (if that is, indeed, the case).

    It even says it in the dialogue. Even after all that you want to go ahead with that. Go on.
    It can't just say it, though, it has to show it - that's a core tenet of the visual medium.

    Also, what did he do? He made a movie about a character in his style and with his leanings That many hate and many love . Like hundreds of writers haven't done that already.What a horrible sin!
    Yes. There are a lot of franchises out there that have the same general things happen and aren't able to continue for much the same reasons. I didn't say it was a sin; I've posited that it's a problem for the IP moving forward. And since we're not getting more Superman movies for the foreseeable future.. it is.

    As for being deconstructionist, every version of superman exists because it tore down the prior version. because here ideas are replaced not even supplemented. The reason is people have a notion of 'real' or 'main' or 'classic' superman. That can only be one. People just don't generally feel it because its a gradual thing(except byrne reboot and new52. Those two did the same function but faster). But the truth is it doesn't have to be that way. There are many versions of the characters. Some have even killed. Accept the versions for what it is. Say that you are more a fan of this than that. Let the others enjoy theirs.
    The Donnerverse didn't tear down the Reeves universe, etc/etc - they just did their own thing. That's not deconstructionism. And they are each distinct while still tapping into what most people connect to in the character and his universe. Superman Returns had a bit of deconstructionism (being a Donnerverse derivative) and didn't connect, either, and that lack of connection is why we got all of 1 movie (with Routh getting royally screwed in the process). That shows there's not just one version, but that there is an area of play that works the best (not saying we all know every bit of where the fence for said area is, either, just that it exists, in a general sense).

    Having said all of this, the Snyderverse fans are welcome to enjoy it. I've said so directly, even going so far as to say I'm glad they got inspiration from the films and that if it helped them, then my extremely adverse reaction didn't totally go to waste. I don't go after his fans. I go after the work itself. Because if WB repeats the same mistakes that made the DCEU fail, it'll happen again or do greater damage to the IP than what the DCEU already did. I want the next one to be better, and I'm voicing what I feel they screwed up in the hopes that they do better next time. None of that means Snyder's fans can't enjoy what they enjoy from them. I don't go into the "DCEU appreciation thread" and spoil their fun there. I'd never do that (I may have gone there once to say something positive about Henry but I can't remember now - it's been awhile). And even when I debate with them on the rest of the forum, I don't tell them they can't enjoy it or that they should just be quiet and let me complain. Because that would be equally silly. Of course they can. I like a good number of things that nobody else on here would like, and nothing they say would dissuade me from enjoying them, either.

    And I'll go one further: as much I don't think it'd add new interest and I don't think the studio will spend the money on it, I sincerely hope you/they all get the JL Snyder Cut they want. I was admittedly against it until recently, and I have less than no interest in seeing it, but if that lets Snyder's fans enjoy that whole universe in a nice package.. WB has made their cinematic Superman-shelving plain enough now that I'm quickly becoming more agnostic to the idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    why not just make a movie where Superman isn’t treated as Jesus?
    This would be my preference for any new iteration. I certainly don't fault Snyder/Goyer alone for that: it's been a "thing" since at least the Donnerverse, and I'd love to have that go away for a loooong time. It doesn't seem to benefit the character in any way, and goes against what WB's stated goal of making Superman "relatable."
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  15. #630
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    The Jesus connection is a cheap way to add depth, even if it flies in the face of the character. That’s why it’s stuck around, and it’s never really helped the character. To add on to what JAK said, remember when Clark goes to ask the priest for advice in MOS, with a hilariously unsubtle shot of Jesus in the Garden of Gethseme? If the intention was to subvert the Jesus imagery, having Clark reject the priest’s advice would’ve been a good example of deconstruction. However that’s not what happens, the priest is portrayed positively as giving good advice, and Superman decides to surrender himself to the authorities without resisting just like Jesus. That’s not subverting the Jesus analogy that’s playing it painfully straight.

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