Zack Snyder on his critics: "You're living in an f-ing dreamworld!"

[qwertyuiop1998]

Having looked through 9 pages of this that were largely rehash of prior threads, I have to know.

Has anyone who thought Man of Steel or Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice were great on the first viewing had their mind changed since?

Has anyone who thought they were crap, changed their mind?

Because I have to say after reading all these posts (here and prior threads) I don't think my initial impressions have changed any more than if I had never read a single sentence. No matter how you explain the movie to me, I still find the same stuff troublesome and the same stuff acceptable. And at this late date I'd love to find someone who actually found one side or the other of fandom able to swing their view.

Actually,I still think Man of Steel is a great movie.But Batman VS Superman give me less feeling than Man of Steel.
I think this involved a question:did author/writer/director later failures will affect his/her prior successes?
I personally think it will.though we won't admitting it.But just comparison when Man of Steel reputation before BVS and JL with after.

[Jim Kelly]

I never saw MAN OF STEEL when it came out, because I was put off by all the negative comments from fans. I only watched it close to when BATMAN V SUPERMAN was going to come out, because I wanted to see that movie but I felt I needed to understand what kind of Superman would be in it. And when I did see MOS, I felt like fandom had let me down. And it's a bitter lesson--never listen to the fans.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea and there are a couple of things that happen that take me out of the movie--but the director is following his vision and doing a good job of realizing the story he wants to tell. Which is all I ask of any movie. I look at movies on their own terms--what does the movie want to be and how well does it do that.

Once I had that knowledge, I could go into BVS with an understanding of the director's approach to the characters. And again, he made the movie he wanted to make. He even answered a couple of the quibbles I had from MOS. There's only one thing that happens in BVS that takes me out of the movie, but otherwise I think it holds together very well.

I haven't changed my mind on these movies. I still think they're very good as works of cinema and I still prefer Superman and Batman as different characters. I appreciate what Snyder was doing in his movies and I think he should feel satisfied with what he accomplished and move on. Fans need to move on also and stop constantly battling over who is right. Opinion is opinion, it's not fact. Trying to brow beat other fans into submission just proves that you're an idiot. Be good people and don't do those things.

[DochaDocha]

I admit that BvS and JL ended up souring me a bit on MoS, but then I have to put myself back into my 2013 self and remember that I liked the movie enough to see it in theatres back-to-back weeks, and bought the BluRay. Whatever Snyder's true vision of Superman is, the reality is that I liked parts of it, and parts of it I didn't like. And that's what most things in life are like.

In short, I consider MoS the most unfairly-maligned superhero movie since 2008 when the MCU started and the Dark Knight series entered a new statosphere, and possibly ever. While I find it boring at times, which is perhaps the biggest sin a superhero movie can commit, it gets weighed down by some viewers' unreasonable expectations that don't seem to apply to other characters.

[stargazer01]

Stephen Colbert had some things to say on his show this week about Zack Snyder latest comments on superheroes.. but what caught my attention was this about Geoff Johns and his feelings about Superman 's portrayal in the Snyder movies,

"Geoff Johns and [former DC Entertainment president] Diane [Nelson] were reading scripts, and Geoff Johns, to his credit, was concerned that there was not enough lightness or humor, given who the character is,” a source told Vulture in 2017. “Geoff definitely raised that point, but that current administration didn’t care that much about what Geoff Johns thought.”

source: https://comicbook.com/dc/2019/03/28/...olbert-reacts/


IMO, Geoff was right all along. Also, Peter Safran (I think producer for Shazam) said last night that each DC character should have a different tone. Listen here:

https://twitter.com/kingteth/status/1111467177993863168

[manofsteel1979]

I can see where Colbert is coming from, but I do find it interesting that a lot of people were angry about Batfleck killing criminals when Tim Burton had his Batman doing the same in both his films, and one could argue both Val Kilmer and Christian Bale's incarnations also killed, yet only Snyder got called out on it. The Superman controversy I understand , but I do feel there is a bit of hypocrasy when people were apoplectic about Snyder's Batman's body count while ignoring past live action Batmen who were just as lethal, especially given in Snyder's take, Batman killing crooks was a recent development and the part of a redemptive arc that was supposed to be concluded in Justice League.

[manymade1]

I can see where Colbert is coming from, but I do find it interesting that a lot of people were angry about Batfleck killing criminals when Tim Burton had his Batman doing the same in both his films, and one could argue both Val Kilmer and Christian Bale's incarnations also killed, yet only Snyder got called out on it. The Superman controversy I understand , but I do feel there is a bit of hypocrasy when people were apoplectic about Snyder's Batman's body count while ignoring past live action Batmen who were just as lethal, especially given in Snyder's take, Batman killing crooks was a recent development and the part of a redemptive arc that was supposed to be concluded in Justice League.

Every superhero kills in these movies. It's just presented in a way where it isn't brutal. Wonder Woman, I would think killed most of the people she fought in the war scene. She definitely killed Ares. Aquaman killed tons of people in his movie, during the final fight. Also, most of the Marvel heroes have killed people from what I've seen.

I think Snyder gets an unfair rep, because he at least doesn't shy away from the fact that his heroes kill to make them look more righteous.

[JAK]

I can see where Colbert is coming from, but I do find it interesting that a lot of people were angry about Batfleck killing criminals when Tim Burton had his Batman doing the same in both his films, and one could argue both Val Kilmer and Christian Bale's incarnations also killed, yet only Snyder got called out on it. The Superman controversy I understand , but I do feel there is a bit of hypocrasy when people were apoplectic about Snyder's Batman's body count while ignoring past live action Batmen who were just as lethal, especially given in Snyder's take, Batman killing crooks was a recent development and the part of a redemptive arc that was supposed to be concluded in Justice League.

Every superhero kills in these movies. It's just presented in a way where it isn't brutal. Wonder Woman, I would think killed most of the people she fought in the war scene. She definitely killed Ares. Aquaman killed tons of people in his movie, during the final fight. Also, most of the Marvel heroes have killed people from what I've seen.

I think Snyder gets an unfair rep, because he at least doesn't shy away from the fact that his heroes kill to make them look more righteous.

There's a lot of truth in what both of you are saying - as a matter of fact, it was one of my main problems with Superman killing Zod in MoS: it just made him one of the crowded pack of action heroes, and that felt cheap to me. "The bad guy dies in the end" is such a trope that I wanted them to show why Superman was different/better from a narrative standpoint... and then he wasn't.

As for Batman killing in various incarnations, another aspect to consider is the push for realism. To extrapolate on what you said, manymade1, it's all in the presentation. At a certain point, it's "real" enough that things aren't as accepted because there's not a cinematic layer to cushon the viewer: because it's more serious, they see the full brunt of it, and it hits differently. Another part of it is generational: what movies were back when those other films came out is different than our expectations now; our world today is very different and those tones affect how we see what we see. In addition, the more accurately these movies represent the source material, the more the expectation is that they should follow the ideas in said source material. So all of that plays a part, imo.

[Flash Gordon]

I can see where Colbert is coming from, but I do find it interesting that a lot of people were angry about Batfleck killing criminals when Tim Burton had his Batman doing the same in both his films, and one could argue both Val Kilmer and Christian Bale's incarnations also killed, yet only Snyder got called out on it. The Superman controversy I understand , but I do feel there is a bit of hypocrasy when people were apoplectic about Snyder's Batman's body count while ignoring past live action Batmen who were just as lethal, especially given in Snyder's take, Batman killing crooks was a recent development and the part of a redemptive arc that was supposed to be concluded in Justice League.

It's all in the execution of the ideas.

All these characters get violent from time to time, they solve most of their problems with their fists and strength after all. Zach Synder just presented it in such a miserable way, that Batman isn't. Batman is not a brutal fascist, he's a superhero who people enjoy seeing overcome adversity. Superman is someone who should look up to and want to emulate, not feel absolutely miserable about. You can feel for Superman or Batman, they have a lot of tough times, but you're not supposed to hate them or question them.

[stargazer01]

Batfleck was branding criminals, who later were killed in jail for it, right? I only saw the BvS UC once.. too long for me. So, BvS Batman basically became a villain. He lost his way after fighting crime so long and not much changing and after witnessing Superman's power and the destruction in Metropolis. He felt so powerless against Superman, he decided Superman was too dangerous and Lex pushed him to want to kill Supes.

All of that sounds good in paper, and to be honest, I had no big problem with Batman in the movie because well I'm not a big fan of him, so it didn't bother me like others it seems. My problem is that I needed to see Superman a lot more as the beacon of hope and inspiration we were told about but I didn't. That Day of the Death montage was not enough, and Superman clearly needed a solo sequel to me. Superman's humanity saved Batman from himself and from killing him, but I didn't see enough of his humanity and heroism. I saw him brooding a lot.

So, Snyder shows his heroes killing in a way that is very visceral and in the face, and maybe that's why some fans can't accept it. I was fine with Superman killing Zod, but I understand why some don't like it. Superman also killed Doomsday and I don't see anyone complaining. I felt a lot more uncomfortable when Clark let Pa Kent die. It feels wrong every time I watch it. It's in the execution I guess. Snyder really wants you to see it and feel it.

[JAK]

Batfleck was branding criminals, who later were killed in jail for it, right? I only saw the BvS UC once.. too long for me. So, BvS Batman basically became a villain. He lost his way after fighting crime so long and not much changing and after witnessing Superman's power and the destruction in Metropolis. He felt so powerless against Superman, he decided Superman was too dangerous and Lex pushed him to want to kill Supes.

All of that sounds good in paper, and to be honest, I had no big problem with Batman in the movie because well I'm not a big fan of him, so it didn't bother me like others it seems. My problem is that I needed to see Superman a lot more as the beacon of hope and inspiration we were told about but I didn't. That Day of the Death montage was not enough, and Superman clearly needed a solo sequel to me. Superman's humanity saved Batman from himself and from killing him, but I didn't see enough of his humanity and heroism. I saw him brooding a lot.

I've often said that the general outline of BvS is actually fairly solid: it's when it gets to specifics and execution that there's a problem. That's why I was rewriting the movie as I watched it. I kept thinking "I get the idea, the idea's kinda sold, but why the hell'd they do 'x' when 'y' should have been staring them in the face?" On paper, you get the impression that Superman vs Batman would be like "the bright light vs the dark knight" - but Superman is so muddied through the film that it's almost like the Archer turtleneck joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IUNc6yxp2g

So, Snyder shows his heroes killing in a way that is very visceral and in the face, and maybe that's why some fans can't accept it. I was fine with Superman killing Zod, but I understand why some don't like it. Superman also killed Doomsday and I don't see anyone complaining. I felt a lot more uncomfortable when Clark let Pa Kent die. It feels wrong every time I watch it. It's in the execution I guess. Snyder really wants you to see it and feel it.

It's visceral, but also doesn't have a point. If it's a departure, usually there's a point, not just "this is a thing now." Especially since he kept talking about how accurate his depictions were. That didn't help things, either. Doomsday was almost like a Zombie, but I think by the time you get to Doomsday, he's like 100,000th on the list of things to complain about, lol. Totally agreed on Pa, though - I could easily see what they were going for, but that doesn't make it fit (imo).

[Mel Dyer]

MOS was a solidly good sci-fi, and I think that is what made it such a GREAT Superman movie.

[manwhohaseverything]

Snyder cut is done. Make of it what you will.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

I admit that BvS and JL ended up souring me a bit on MoS, but then I have to put myself back into my 2013 self and remember that I liked the movie enough to see it in theatres back-to-back weeks, and bought the BluRay. Whatever Snyder's true vision of Superman is, the reality is that I liked parts of it, and parts of it I didn't like. And that's what most things in life are like.

In short, I consider MoS the most unfairly-maligned superhero movie since 2008 when the MCU started and the Dark Knight series entered a new statosphere, and possibly ever. While I find it boring at times, which is perhaps the biggest sin a superhero movie can commit, it gets weighed down by some viewers' unreasonable expectations that don't seem to apply to other characters.

On it’s own I consider Captain America: First Avenger to be a pretty average/decent/meh movie. But it’s kinda elevated by how it’s superior sequels made great use of what CA:FA set up.
I pretty much feel the opposite of MOS. On its own I don’t think it’s all that much better or worse than CA:FA. Only I think BvS and probably also JL sorta taint it in retrospect, since the payoff we got for what MOS set up was kinda a big mess.
Probably a crappy way to judge movies on the quality of it’s sequels and not on its own merits. But with sequels and shared universes taking over everything, I find myself falling into that line of thinking more and more.

[Last Son]

I can see where Colbert is coming from, but I do find it interesting that a lot of people were angry about Batfleck killing criminals when Tim Burton had his Batman doing the same in both his films, and one could argue both Val Kilmer and Christian Bale's incarnations also killed, yet only Snyder got called out on it. The Superman controversy I understand , but I do feel there is a bit of hypocrasy when people were apoplectic about Snyder's Batman's body count while ignoring past live action Batmen who were just as lethal, especially given in Snyder's take, Batman killing crooks was a recent development and the part of a redemptive arc that was supposed to be concluded in Justice League.

At the time of the release of the Burton movies, the internet was barely a thing, and a lot of the criticism of the DCEU comes from social media, from critics who are a lot more knowledgeable about comic books than the critics of the 80s and early 90s who had a very different path in their careers than modern internet critics. It was also generally accepted that after the Adam West series, Burton's Batman was a much darker reinvention so Batman killing may have been accepted as a natural consequence of that darker take.

Still, the Burton Batman movies have been called out PLENTY over the past 30 years or so by die-hard Batman fans over deviations from the comics, including Batman killing criminals. Surely you've seen it. I mean, professional critics from the 80s and early 90s might not have cared(though Roger Ebert hated the Burton movies yet enjoyed Forever) but as soon as the average comic fan had a chance to voice they disapproval on message boards starting in the 90s, they did. Zack Snyder is far from the first director to have his superhero movies criticized.

[Superbat]

The secret to getting away with changing the canon from the comics is to make the movies good.

Thor Ragnarok changes canon but people still loved it because it was good. It's the same thing with TDK trilogy, GOTG, Spider-Man Homecoming, Logan, Infinity War, Captain Marvel.