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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    At least people will stop whining to see the "Snyder cut" because apparently there isn't one. His version never made it past the script phase:

    https://movieweb.com/justice-league-...s-zack-snyder/
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  2. #62
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    It was clear from the original Justice League trailers that WB was forcing that movie to have some more jokes at the very least.

    He did film a cut of the movie that I'd be interested in seeing but it would cost millions of dollars worth of CGI to complete it. Millions that WB isn't going to spend on the DVD of an embarrassing flop.

  3. #63
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Lots of message removed in this thread, so let's put an end to this nonsense.

    1. Insulting creators is a violation of forum rules
    2. Insulting other posters is a violation of forum rules
    3. Insulting a group of people/fanbase is a violation of forum rules

    If this continues, bans will be forthcoming, so let's get back to the topic and avoid the personal attacks.
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  4. #64
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Lots of message removed in this thread, so let's put an end to this nonsense.

    1. Insulting creators is a violation of forum rules
    2. Insulting other posters is a violation of forum rules
    3. Insulting a group of people/fanbase is a violation of forum rules

    If this continues, bans will be forthcoming, so let's get back to the topic and avoid the personal attacks.
    Absolutely. Disagreeing with Zack Snyder's perspective doesn't make him a bad person, nor does thinking he made a bad movie make you one either. There's room for lots of different ideas. Why take it personally?

    There are parts of Snyder's films I absolutely adore and there are parts I completely disagree with. From all reports, though, Snyder is a great guy who is beloved by the people who work with him. That's a pretty rare thing in Hollywood and that should count for something, irregardless of what you think about his approach to superhero films.

  5. #65
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    That the timeline was going to be altered and Lois didn't die doesn't mean a thing. It still means that if he lost her, he'd go evil. And that is the wrong message to send for the character. Period full stop. That's the whole issue, not whether or not the Knightmare timeline stuck. It was obvious it wouldn't.
    He doesn't turn evil because Darkseid kills Lois. Her death makes him emotionally vulnerable enough to be succumbed by Anti-Life Equation. You definitely should listen to that Q&A instead of taking words out of context. Or what, Superman is not allowed to grief? Or a grief is not allowed to be enough of an emotional response to be vulnerable to Anti-Life Equation? It's definitely not the case like Kingdom Come or Injustass where he becomes a terrible version of himself WILLINGLY.

  6. #66
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    At least people will stop whining to see the "Snyder cut" because apparently there isn't one. His version never made it past the script phase:

    https://movieweb.com/justice-league-...s-zack-snyder/
    Snyder Cut exist. There was an original script. Chris Terrio and Zack Snyder had to rewrite that after critical response to BvS (because original script was completed before BvS got released in theaters). So they rewrote the script and shot that entirely. Later WB invited Whedon to rewrtire already rewritten script and allowed him reshot 90% of the original movie. During autographs Zack Snyder confirmed that he shot the entire thing, the movie is done, but the release of his version is completely on WB. And let me remind you what his version would've given us:

    More of this:



    Another Superman flight scene.

    A much more emotional reunion of Lois and Clark that followed BvS plotline.


  7. #67
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    He doesn't turn evil because Darkseid kills Lois. Her death makes him emotionally vulnerable enough to be succumbed by Anti-Life Equation. You definitely should listen to that Q&A instead of taking words out of context. Or what, Superman is not allowed to grief? Or a grief is not allowed to be enough of an emotional response to be vulnerable to Anti-Life Equation? It's definitely not the case like Kingdom Come or Injustass where he becomes a terrible version of himself WILLINGLY.
    Its all semantics to me. Whether its a willing turn or not makes absolutely no difference to me whatsoever. What matters to me is the result whichwould have been a big-screen turn at portraying Superman as a villain. Its just a different catalyst to get to the same overdone, damaging circumstance. I understand the context just fine and its still terrible to me. Yes Superman is allowed to grieve. But Superman grieving over someone should not be an excuse to turn him into a villain. And that's all "making him more vulnerable to Anti-Life" is. A contrived reason to turn him bad for a meaningful period before its reversed. But the damage already would have been done.

    Fair enough to others who may disagree. I hold no ill will toward anyone who would have welcomed see this all come to fruition. To each their own. But this is where I stand and its not for lack of understanding what the plan was. I get the plan, I'm not confused. I just still hate the idea of it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-25-2019 at 10:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  8. #68
    Last Son of Shaolin GreatKungLao's Avatar
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    Allow me to write down an entire quote Zack Snyder gave during Watchmen Q&A on Superman:

    "In my heart of hearts I still believe in what Superman stands for. He is a good guy. He means well. He is not going to f*** you over. He is not going do sh***y stuff as best he can. He is gonna try his best. His parents were cool, they raised him well, they loved him. They did a great job raising an alien who could accidentially kill them as an infant. Thank God it didn't happen. My hats off to them. Clearly they were good parents. And so now you have this character that is really trying the best he can, this character is confrotned with a world that doesn't care about this stuff as much as he does. He wants to do the right thing. He does believe in truth and justice, you know, and the American Way whatever that is. He wants that to mean something. It's an interesting thing to confront, it is confronted in this movie [Watchmen] "What happened to the American dream?", it's that idea, lets talk about it. But that's what I think is amazing about Superman is that he stays with it, he is going see it through. At his heart there is something there, there is a why of that, it didn't happened by accident in a vacuum. He actually stood for something and I believe in that. I want that to mean something, but at the same time that can't mean something without the consequence of the reality of that point of view, cuase then that does not mean anything, it's a joke, it's just that truth, justice and that other stuff. But if you can get to why of his point of view, then you can actually find your way though it that is maybe meaningful, that actually can touch people, that can actually allow him to exist in a way that is meaningful. Then his belief in justice or his belif in truth becomes transcendent because it's based on something real and not just words. Does that make any sense?"

    So basically in a realistic setting being an optimist is difficult, it is freaking hard and with Superman he challenged that optimism with a much more realistic world than the one we have in comics. A world that has racism, xenophobia, hate, criminal atrocities, etc. and how Superman overcomes that? That's what BvS is all about. He is tested, his optimism gets damanged ("Nobody stays good in this world"), but he overcomes, he even saves Lex from Doomsday, he is holding back in order to not kill Batman even though his mother's life was at stake.

    But I get it. You don't like realistic take on Superman. You want his media to be an escapist power fantasy. That's ok. I'm finished here I guess.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    My sister and her husband are psychiatrists, so they occasionally link articles on psychology. One interesting article they linked was how when people choose to buck social norms and be non-conformists, they all tend to gravitating to the same non-conformity, ironically conforming to non-conformists.

    I feel like this is what happens with Superman. Everyone who wants their Superman not to be Christopher Reeve's Superman talks about how their Superman is going to be different, and in the end, all these guys come up with the same ***NEW!!!!*** take on Superman. Look, he's weaker! Look, he makes boneheaded mistakes! Look, he can get punked by Batman! Look, if you kill Lois, he's going to lose his mind! Look, he's going to be mind-controlled to be the bad guy of this story! "You've never seen this before!" said the last nine guys asked about their unique take on Superman, but ended up doing someone else's take on Superman.

    Snark aside, I hear a lot of complaints that Superman isn't relatable enough. I don't necessarily see that as a problem, since I think he's an unattainable fantasy, but if that is your goal you're shooting yourself in the foot if you spend considerable time of the movie having him mind-controlled.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 03-25-2019 at 10:41 PM.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Kurt Busiek did the “realistic Superman” story much better I’d argue. Also the Snyder Superman is so unbearably cynical it doesn’t make sense for Kal to be Superman. The traditional understanding is Clark gets his morals and sense of duty from the Kents. Yet in the DCEU the Kents are, if anything, a roadblock to Kal becoming Superman. Pa teaches him to fear and doubt himself, and Ma gives only the most tepid of support before telling him he doesn’t owe anyone anything. Ok fine but then where is Clark’s sense of duty coming from? Why does he even want to be Superman? The answer seems to be “because Jor-El was a total badass hero and Clark inherited his heroic tendencies”. Jor is the one who encourages Kal to be a hero, who tells him he can be a source of inspiration. In a movie supposedly about “what if a child decided to be something other than what society intended?” having the main character get so little in the way of guidance from his adopted parents and so much from his birth parents seems counterproductive.

    And also the fact that Superman was supposedly the standing for immigrants, with Batman being the standin for racists, yet in the end Batman is proven right about Superman is a really bad look. Again Superman is the weak-willed one who falls prey to Anti-Life while all the rest stay strong. That’s an absolutely terrible development, full of unfortunate implications. Should it not be the other way around? Batman falling prey to Darkseid’s Anti-Life due to his hatred of the other while Superman remains strong to show that it’s not the immigrants we should fear?

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    In the knightmare sequence, Superman kills Batman and the other guys. He becomes a cold-blooded killer... yeah I don't need to see that ever in a Superman movie. I don't care if it's not super realistic or whatever. He can be emotionally challenged and angry and sad, but ultimately he finds a way to make it better. And sometimes he can't like in the case of Pa Kent when he dies in Superman the Movie. And he just has to accept it and live with it, and know that he can't save everybody all the time. I think that's more grown up and mature.


  12. #72
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    Allow me to write down an entire quote Zack Snyder gave during Watchmen Q&A on Superman:

    "In my heart of hearts I still believe in what Superman stands for. He is a good guy. He means well. He is not going to f*** you over. He is not going do sh***y stuff as best he can. He is gonna try his best. His parents were cool, they raised him well, they loved him. They did a great job raising an alien who could accidentially kill them as an infant. Thank God it didn't happen. My hats off to them. Clearly they were good parents. And so now you have this character that is really trying the best he can, this character is confrotned with a world that doesn't care about this stuff as much as he does. He wants to do the right thing. He does believe in truth and justice, you know, and the American Way whatever that is. He wants that to mean something. It's an interesting thing to confront, it is confronted in this movie [Watchmen] "What happened to the American dream?", it's that idea, lets talk about it. But that's what I think is amazing about Superman is that he stays with it, he is going see it through. At his heart there is something there, there is a why of that, it didn't happened by accident in a vacuum. He actually stood for something and I believe in that. I want that to mean something, but at the same time that can't mean something without the consequence of the reality of that point of view, cuase then that does not mean anything, it's a joke, it's just that truth, justice and that other stuff. But if you can get to why of his point of view, then you can actually find your way though it that is maybe meaningful, that actually can touch people, that can actually allow him to exist in a way that is meaningful. Then his belief in justice or his belif in truth becomes transcendent because it's based on something real and not just words. Does that make any sense?"

    So basically in a realistic setting being an optimist is difficult, it is freaking hard and with Superman he challenged that optimism with a much more realistic world than the one we have in comics. A world that has racism, xenophobia, hate, criminal atrocities, etc. and how Superman overcomes that? That's what BvS is all about. He is tested, his optimism gets damanged ("Nobody stays good in this world"), but he overcomes, he even saves Lex from Doomsday, he is holding back in order to not kill Batman even though his mother's life was at stake.

    But I get it. You don't like realistic take on Superman. You want his media to be an escapist power fantasy. That's ok. I'm finished here I guess.

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    For real though, I want movies to be good. That's the requirement.

    Snyder can talk all he wants but nothing is magically going to transform MOS and BvS into good movies.

  14. #74
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    People keep talking about "realism" as if thats actually a thing in a movie where an alien uses the suns rays to fly and shoot heat rays out of his eyes.

  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Film,Television, and other outside media more than comics have influence on shaping the general publics opinion of comic book characters and their expectations for them. One of the big things that helped MCU was no preconceptions of most of their characters they were free to interpret and present characters as they saw fit and the general public accepted it even as some comics fans were annoyed/angry at the portrayals. Now with DC no characters well heck no characters in all of comics have gotten more public exposure in various outside media than Superman and Batman.

    There is an irony to Batman fans who hate Adam West's Batman because that show perhaps more than anything has given filmmakers more freedom than anything else. The most widely known Batman interpretations outside of comics are Batman 66, Burton/Schumacher Batman film series, Nolan's Batman, DCEU Batman, DCAU/BTAS Batman, and Lego Batman due to theatrical releases and TV shows and none of these interpretations are similar and all are accepted because they turned that character with West's Batman on it's ear early enough when most didn't have preconceptions.

    While Superman is my favorite DC hero he does suffer from one thing for 75 years 1938 to 2013 in outside media from the Radio Show to Serials, George Reeves' Superman, Christopher Reeve Superman, Superboy TV Show, Lois and Clark, Smallville, Superman Returns, now with Supergirl and all the various cartoons/animated series showed Superman in the same way a well meaning good natured boyscout with a smile who stands for truth and justice and right or wrong it's what the public expects. I know some like or even love what Snyder was trying to do with a more realistic deconstructionist look at the character but the general public will never accept that they would sooner accept Calvin Ellis if WB went that root over Snyder's Superman because you can change Superman but you can't change Kal-El/Clark and expect success with the general public.
    Last edited by Jokerz79; 03-26-2019 at 01:01 AM.

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