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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    For real though, I want movies to be good. That's the requirement.

    Snyder can talk all he wants but nothing is magically going to transform MOS and BvS into good movies.
    You're right. because they are great movies. They have done so for years.

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member qwertyuiop1998's Avatar
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    Let's just say realism never meant put some stupidly and lame scences in plot.
    Good story built realism characters.not put some you so called realism(which actually not realism,since it's conduit by ilogically story)to made story good
    "Dangerous Zombie! Transform!! Click And Load! Buggle UP! Danger! Danger! Death The Crisis! Dangerous Zombie!" Kamen Rider Gemn
    (In first he's mysterious and evil and now he's psycho and crazy and insane and evil AND "The Meme Lord"LOL.)

  3. #78
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Well, that just makes me all the happier that he's no longer within sniffing distance of Superman. He might be a fan, on some level, but he does not understand that character. I knew that from MoS, even though I talked myself into giving BvS a chance. Moustachegate notwithstanding, I kinda wish I'd only seen Justice League. Movie itself wasn't great, but at least I liked Superman in it, overall...lol

    DC hired him because they've always been 20 years behind the rest of the business when it comes to these things, and they were trying to make Singer's X-Men when they should have been taking a good look at Marvel and found a more serious middle ground. There's a way to take the heart of what they were doing, make it more serious while still powerful fun, and just knock it out of the park. Hopefully that's what they'll be doing now. Aquaman and Wonder Woman are promising starts, and I hope that continues.

    In my estimation, if we lose Cavill's shot to play a real Superman for more than 3 scenes of "Justice League," I lay that blame at Snyder, Goyer, and WB. I wish Snyder well on whatever non-DC projects he finds, but the only Superman-related character I wouldn't utterly hate seeing him on board with is Superboy-Prime (as a solo film). That version (at least the one written by Johns) I think he'd understand.

    Hopefully the next person WB hires to take the Super-helm takes a good, long look at why this and understands what they should do, and what they definitely shouldn't do.
    Last edited by JAK; 03-26-2019 at 03:49 AM.
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  4. #79
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    DC hired him because everyone else turned Nolan down. They knew a script that couldn't be salvaged when they saw one.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post

    In my estimation, if we lose Cavill's shot to play a real Superman for more than 3 scenes of "Justice League," I lay that blame at Snyder, Goyer, and WB. I wish Snyder well on whatever non-DC projects he finds, but the only Superman-related character I wouldn't utterly hate seeing him on board with is Superboy-Prime (as a solo film). That version (at least the one written by Johns) I think he'd understand.
    If losing Cavill means that we won't ever have another Superman like the one in Justice league, I'll cheer for his departure. This version of Superman was utterly detrimental to the whole movie. How anyone could clamor for more of it is beyond me. then again, borderline assholic and paternalizing Superman seems to be favored by his "true fans" in comics so I just shouldn't be surprised to see it favored too in movies...

    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    People have been hating bad movies for years, yes.
    And MoS and BvS are some of the best movies out there. But it requires the watcher to use its brain instead of being force-fed every detail and it isn't made to shy away from the consequences of superheroism until it became fashionable to do so (looking at you, CA:CW).

  6. #81
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    If losing Cavill means that we won't ever have another Superman like the one in Justice league, I'll cheer for his departure. This version of Superman was utterly detrimental to the whole movie. How anyone could clamor for more of it is beyond me. then again, borderline assholic and paternalizing Superman seems to be favored by his "true fans" in comics so I just shouldn't be surprised to see it favored too in movies...

    And MoS and BvS are some of the best movies out there. But it requires the watcher to use its brain instead of being force-fed every detail and it isn't made to shy away from the consequences of superheroism until it became fashionable to do so (looking at you, CA:CW).
    The Superman in JL goes too far in the other direction, to be sure, but for me is still preferable to what we got in MoS and BvS. (also, I get paternalizing... but assholic I don't see)

    As for those movies requiring watchers to "Use their brain".. if you mean that it required my brain to write a better film as I watched it, then I agree . Because for BvS, that's basically what I did (yes, really) to keep my eyes from glossing over.

    Sincerely, I am glad you liked them, and would never tell you that you shouldn't. I like and defend a good number of films that many like to beat up regularly, so I get it. And there are nuggets of good ideas in there, as well as some good and some great scenes (as I've said before). For me, those just don't save the rest of them.
    Last edited by JAK; 03-26-2019 at 04:12 AM.
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  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    If losing Cavill means that we won't ever have another Superman like the one in Justice league, I'll cheer for his departure. This version of Superman was utterly detrimental to the whole movie. How anyone could clamor for more of it is beyond me. then again, borderline assholic and paternalizing Superman seems to be favored by his "true fans" in comics so I just shouldn't be surprised to see it favored too in movies...



    And MoS and BvS are some of the best movies out there. But it requires the watcher to use its brain instead of being force-fed every detail and it isn't made to shy away from the consequences of superheroism until it became fashionable to do so (looking at you, CA:CW).
    The MCU was questioning the legality of Superhero activities going back to Iron Man 2 Civil War was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

    MoS while I dislike the interpretation of Superman is a OK film but fails on some story levels like Zod's death not killing Zod but Superman's grief over doing so they never established him as someone who had issues with killing for the greater good actually the opposite given Jonathan's death. So the emotional cord Snyder wanted fails also ending the film with Superman defying the U.S. Government really hampered his moral high ground in BvS of calling Batman a vigilante and speaking of BvS is just a convoluted mess even with the Ultimate Cut.

  8. #83
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    Batman v Superman is 153 minutes of a grown man whacking two dolls together: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...her-lindy-west

    The best BvS review you will ever read.

  9. #84
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    Batman v Superman is 153 minutes of a grown man whacking two dolls together: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...her-lindy-west

    The best BvS review you will ever read.
    THAT explains it!! I never played with my toys like that, and got pissed at kids who came over and did that.

    It all makes sense now! ROTFLMAO!
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  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Let me say that I do agree with Zack Snyder, as well as fans of Zack Snyder's films, about people being too beholden to Christopher Reeve's version of Superman and the Donner films. I am always amazed that so many people revere that movie or that WB threw in lots of money on a nostalgia piece like Superman Returns which was set in that continuity and while that movie had some charm (though less so now given what we know now about Spacey and Singer), it was also basically stuck in a version of Superman that many young kids didn't know at the time, and it was saying more or less Superman has no place in the 21st Century, and I have to give credit to Snyder, however flawed his approach has been, for saying no he absolutely does have a place in the 21st Century. The Donner films are flawed. Even the best one, Superman 1, it's got all the problems that people complained about in later interpretations and revisions. Krypton is too overemphasized, and Jor-El being a Space Dad hologram on standby takes away from the sense of loss and loneliness that is at the heart of Superman's longing for a planet he never knew. Gene Hackman's Luthor isn't the crazy mad scientist of the comics. In most respects it isn't all that different from Snyder's movies. Comics fans back in the day complained that Superman turning back time to save Lois was selfish. The second movie also had Superman killing Zod and company.

    There was never anything anywhere that Superman is and forever will be Christopher Reeve, no more that he should be George Reeves before him. For a lot of people Bond is and always will be Sean Connery but modern audiences have liked the other actors as much if not more.

    My Superman is the Max Fleischer cartoons (the first one who flew) and the DCAU cartoons, and from the comics in different eras. The Superman that Tommy Monaghan memorializes as the ultimate immigrant.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 03-26-2019 at 05:05 AM.

  11. #86
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Let me say that I do agree with Zack Snyder, as well as fans of Zack Snyder's films, about people being too beholden to Christopher Reeve's version of Superman and the Donner films. I am always amazed that so many people revere that movie or that WB threw in lots of money on a nostalgia piece like Superman Returns which was set in that continuity and while that movie had some charm (though less so now given what we know now about Spacey and Singer), it was also basically stuck in a version of Superman that many young kids didn't know at the time, and it was saying more or less Superman has no place in the 21st Century, and I have to give credit to Snyder, however flawed his approach has been, for saying no he absolutely does have a place in the 21st Century. The Donner films are flawed. Even the best one, Superman 1, it's got all the problems that people complained about in later interpretations and revisions. Krypton is too overemphasized, and Jor-El being a Space Dad hologram on standby takes away from the sense of loss and loneliness that is at the heart of Superman's longing for a planet he never knew. Gene Hackman's Luthor isn't the crazy mad scientist of the comics. In most respects it isn't all that different from Snyder's movies. Comics fans back in the day complained that Superman turning back time to save Lois was selfish. The second movie also had Superman killing Zod and company.

    There was never anything anywhere that Superman is and forever will be Christopher Reeve, no more that he should be George Reeves before him. For a lot of people Bond is and always will be Sean Connery but modern audiences have liked the other actors as much if not more.

    My Superman is the Max Fleischer cartoons (the first one who flew) and the DCAU cartoons, and from the comics in different eras. The Superman that Tommy Monaghan memorializes as the ultimate immigrant.
    I can agree with this take as long as one caveat is added: not all of us who ended up hating these films "just wanted Donner again" (paraphrasing). I, for one, felt that Snyder's take doubled down on my least-favorite parts of Donner's take from a characterization standpoint, which had also previously been pushed to the front by Singer (just in different ways). As long as that's in there, I'm basically good with it. Minus the Zod-killing of S:II, though - that's grey at best, even if you take out the TV-shown scene of them being carted away. But still...

    I'm with you on Max Fleischer (minus some of the episodes that haven't aged well at all, of course). A movie with that mentality for Superman (in general, anyway), I'd absolutely love. Smart, decisive, headstrong. It'd make for a very refreshing version for movie audiences, too - one that I think would go over well.
    Last edited by JAK; 03-26-2019 at 05:29 AM.
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  12. #87
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    DC hired him because everyone else turned Nolan down. They knew a script that couldn't be salvaged when they saw one.
    That's not accurate, as far as the reporting I've read. Numerous directors were vying for the job and the final two contenders were Zack Snyder and Darren Aronofsky, who was Nolan's prefered choice, but Warners went with Snyder because they'd had more box office success.

  13. #88
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatKungLao View Post
    Allow me to write down an entire quote Zack Snyder gave during Watchmen Q&A on Superman:

    "In my heart of hearts I still believe in what Superman stands for. He is a good guy. He means well. He is not going to f*** you over. He is not going do sh***y stuff as best he can. He is gonna try his best. His parents were cool, they raised him well, they loved him. They did a great job raising an alien who could accidentially kill them as an infant. Thank God it didn't happen. My hats off to them. Clearly they were good parents. And so now you have this character that is really trying the best he can, this character is confrotned with a world that doesn't care about this stuff as much as he does. He wants to do the right thing. He does believe in truth and justice, you know, and the American Way whatever that is. He wants that to mean something. It's an interesting thing to confront, it is confronted in this movie [Watchmen] "What happened to the American dream?", it's that idea, lets talk about it. But that's what I think is amazing about Superman is that he stays with it, he is going see it through. At his heart there is something there, there is a why of that, it didn't happened by accident in a vacuum. He actually stood for something and I believe in that. I want that to mean something, but at the same time that can't mean something without the consequence of the reality of that point of view, cuase then that does not mean anything, it's a joke, it's just that truth, justice and that other stuff. But if you can get to why of his point of view, then you can actually find your way though it that is maybe meaningful, that actually can touch people, that can actually allow him to exist in a way that is meaningful. Then his belief in justice or his belif in truth becomes transcendent because it's based on something real and not just words. Does that make any sense?"

    So basically in a realistic setting being an optimist is difficult, it is freaking hard and with Superman he challenged that optimism with a much more realistic world than the one we have in comics. A world that has racism, xenophobia, hate, criminal atrocities, etc. and how Superman overcomes that? That's what BvS is all about. He is tested, his optimism gets damanged ("Nobody stays good in this world"), but he overcomes, he even saves Lex from Doomsday, he is holding back in order to not kill Batman even though his mother's life was at stake.

    But I get it. You don't like realistic take on Superman. You want his media to be an escapist power fantasy. That's ok. I'm finished here I guess.
    Not entirely accurate. Do I lean way more toward fantasy over realistic when it comes to Superman? Abso-freaking-lutely. But I don't mind takes with elements of realism if done well. I liked the realism aspects of MOS standing alone for instance. But BvS forward (his ideas for JL at least) was not, in any facet, done well, imo.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    That's not accurate, as far as the reporting I've read. Numerous directors were vying for the job and the final two contenders were Zack Snyder and Darren Aronofsky, who was Nolan's prefered choice, but Warners went with Snyder because they'd had more box office success.
    To be honest, I don't think Aronofsky would have been a good fit either. I saw his NOAH, his rejigging of a Bible story. Interesting and weird but also idiosyncratic.

  15. #90
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I've gone on the record for years defending MOS and BvS (particularly the ultimate cut). I still think they are grossly misunderstood movies and the hyperbolic "Man of Muhrdurr/Hobo of Steel" overreaction to MOS was and is unwarranted. I still enjoy both movies in spite of some issues I have with them. I will continue to defend those movies when I feel it necessary.

    That being said, I'm glad that Warner's ultimately changed their minds and interceded in JL and nipped the whole "Lois is killed/Superman goes evil" thing in the bud. While there's no doubt what Snyder had planned for JL parts 1 and 2 would have been epic and grand, doing it at the expense of Superman's future image was a bad idea, especially because as others point out, the evil Superman trope has been so overdone and done badly in other media the last decade or so prior that to full on bring that into the movies could have completely ruined the character in live action for a generation. I feel both the character and Henry Cavill deserved better than that.

    I still maintain that WB really really screwed the pooch with JL. Instead of delaying it to do the necessary rewrites and allowing Snyder to finish at least JL 1 properly, they forced him to do an eleventh hour rewrite after everyone agreed to the script that Snyder had written for JL and then pretty much fired him in a panic and gave Whedon the thankless job of attempting to stitch it all together and keep the original release date so the Warner's execs could still get their sweet bonuses.

    Let's keep in mind that before BvS came out, everyone that oversaw JL at Warner's we're more than OK with the "scary" version of JL and evil Superman. That can't be layed all at Snyder's feet. In fact he was willing to rewrite the film to please Warner Bros once the online outrage against BvS hit. It's becoming clearer that the theatrical version of JL that we got would not have been that drastically different from the movie Snyder Ultimately filmed. Let's keep in mind the ending scenes of movie where
    Supes does his classic Clark Kent shirt rip,fly off was done by Snyder. The movie Snyder actually filmed and finished principal photography on pretty much eliminated the whole Superman goes evil plotline.


    I also sort of wonder if the idea of evil Superman originated with Snyder or Warner's. These things aren't made in a vacuum. I'd wager a lot of money that there were people within Warner's eager to get evil Superman on the big screen and Snyder happily worked it into his larger plans because it looked cool on paper, if not in practice.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 03-26-2019 at 09:24 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

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