Zack Snyder on his critics: "You're living in an f-ing dreamworld!"

[Last Son of Krypton]

I also sort of wonder if the idea of evil Superman originated with Snyder or Warner's. These things aren't made in a vacuum. I'd wager a lot of money that there were people within Warner's eager to get evil Superman on the big screen and Snyder happily worked it into his larger plans because it looked cool on paper, if not in practice.

Like being killed by Doomsday and fighting Batman, a brainwashed Supes was on the list of things that can be done with the character before Snyder came on board. He wasn't the first one pitching "evil Superman" to WB.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I've gone on the record for years defending MOS and BvS (particularly the ultimate cut). I still think they are grossly misunderstood movies and the hyperbolic "Man of Muhrdurr/Hobo of Steel" overreaction to MOS was and is unwarranted. I still enjoy both movies in spite of some issues I have with them. I will continue to defend those movies when I feel it necessary.

That being said, I'm glad that Warner's interceded in JL and nipped the whole "Lois is killed/Superman goes evil" thing in the bud. While there's no doubt what Snyder had planned for JL parts 1 and 2 would have been epic and grand, doing it at the expense of Superman's future image was a bad idea, especially because as others point out, the evil Superman trope has been so overdone and done badly in other media the last decade or so prior that to full on bring that into the movies could have completely ruined the character in live action for a generation. I feel both the character and Henry Cavill deserved better than that.

I still maintain that WB really really screwed the pooch with JL. Instead of delaying it to do the necessary rewrites and allowing Snyder to finish at least JL 1 properly, they forced him to do an eleventh hour rewrite after everyone agreed to the script that Snyder had written for JL and then pretty much fired him in a panic and gave Whedon the thankless job of attempting to stitch it all together and keep the original release date so the Warner's execs could still get their sweet bonuses.

Let's keep in mind that before BvS came out, everyone that oversaw JL at Warner's we're more than OK with the "scary" version of JL and evil Superman. That can't be layed all at Snyder's feet. In fact he was willing to rewrite the film to please Warner Bros once the online outrage against BvS hit. It's becoming clearer that the theatrical version of JL that we got would not have been that drastically different from the movie Snyder Ultimately filmed. Let's keep in mind the ending scenes of movie where
Supes does his classic Clark Kent shirt rip,fly off was done by Snyder. The movie Snyder actually filmed and finished principal photography on pretty much eliminated the whole Superman goes evil plotline.


I also sort of wonder if the idea of evil Superman originated with Snyder or Warner's. These things aren't made in a vacuum. I'd wager a lot of money that there were people within Warner's eager to get evil Superman on the big screen and Snyder happily worked it into his larger plans because it looked cool on paper, if not in practice.

That's a fair point. I think Snyder's altered Justice League would have been better or more satisfying than the patchwork mess we got. As he said the set-up for his "Scary idea" was moved to JL-2 in his revised script and film. So all warners should have done is make the film he wanted but remove the teaser so that there aren't hard rules or a roadmap for them to follow later on.

The post-production woes with Snyder/Whedon are similar to Superman 2 with Donner and Lester. And the Lester Superman is actually not a bad movie and in either case my issues with Superman 2 persist in either the Lester or Donner version, i.e. that Superman must be a monk, that he and Lois aren't meant to be, and that the only solution is for Superman to erase her memory of their relationship and so on. That part is just something that I can't accept, and since both movies respect that premise to me it's not like either one is a real improvement. In both the Snyder and Whedon Justice League Steppenwolf is the main bad guy.

And to me, Snyder's movie and premise is a poor rendition of Final Crisis and the New Gods mythos with the Anti-Life Equation and so on. It wasn't Superman who succumbed to Anti-Life there, he was in fact someone who resisted and opposed it. And introducing Darkseid as someone who already has the Anti-Life Equation is a weak way to build a villain. Thanos didn't show up with all the infinity stones and gauntlet after all.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Like being killed by Doomsday and fighting Batman, a brainwashed Supes was on the list of things that can be done with the character before Snyder came on board. He wasn't the first one pitching "evil Superman" to WB.

Evil Superman has a long history. You have those 50s covers with Superdickery and so on. TDKR doesn't have an "Evil Superman" but a Reaganite Superman at least.

The modern trend and popularity of it can probably be credited, ironically, to DCAU. Superman was brainwashed a few times (as was Batman and other members of the League) and Superman being manipulated by Darkseid at the end of the series was a big one, and then you had that Justice League episode with the Lords where Superman and the Lords (including Batman who isn't a goody two shoes there) all agree to take over the world. Superman without Lois going evil was also mocked and parodied there. Like one early episode has Lois going into an alternate dimension to find a Superman whose Lois died working for Lex. Lois' reaction, "Look at you now, married to Luthor." And in the Justice Lords one, Superman forces Lois into house arrest. The DCAU balanced it and did it for special instances and didn't hit every beat you see in Injustice (i.e. Batman is always best and raddest there is) but the tension of Superman going nuts was a big part of their cartoons.

Then you had Red Son (which I hate, as I do most of Mark Millar's stuff with the exception of his Spider-Man stuff), and Injustice ruined it. Henry Cavill said that he read Red Son in preparation for Man of Steel and that's a huge problem if that's going to be your reference material.

And also you have Superman 3, the Richard Pryor one where Superman and Clark separate and Superman becomes a total jerk and so on, leading to that junkyard fight (legitimately a great Superman movie moment in a weak movie).

[DochaDocha]

You may say I'm splitting hairs, but I see a big difference between Superman's having to overcome his demons/evil doppelganger in Superman III and having to fight his fellow headliner heroes in a movie.

[Alan2099]

Allow me to write down an entire quote Zack Snyder gave during Watchmen Q&A on Superman:

"In my heart of hearts I still believe in what Superman stands for. He is a good guy. He means well. He is not going to f*** you over. He is not going do sh***y stuff as best he can. He is gonna try his best. His parents were cool, they raised him well, they loved him. They did a great job raising an alien who could accidentially kill them as an infant. Thank God it didn't happen. My hats off to them. Clearly they were good parents. And so now you have this character that is really trying the best he can, this character is confrotned with a world that doesn't care about this stuff as much as he does. He wants to do the right thing. He does believe in truth and justice, you know, and the American Way whatever that is. He wants that to mean something. It's an interesting thing to confront, it is confronted in this movie [Watchmen] "What happened to the American dream?", it's that idea, lets talk about it. But that's what I think is amazing about Superman is that he stays with it, he is going see it through. At his heart there is something there, there is a why of that, it didn't happened by accident in a vacuum. He actually stood for something and I believe in that. I want that to mean something, but at the same time that can't mean something without the consequence of the reality of that point of view, cuase then that does not mean anything, it's a joke, it's just that truth, justice and that other stuff. But if you can get to why of his point of view, then you can actually find your way though it that is maybe meaningful, that actually can touch people, that can actually allow him to exist in a way that is meaningful. Then his belief in justice or his belif in truth becomes transcendent because it's based on something real and not just words. Does that make any sense?"

It's nice that he says that, but if he really felt that way, maybe some of it should have actually been used in the movies he made.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You may say I'm splitting hairs, but I see a big difference between Superman's having to overcome his demons/evil doppelganger in Superman III and having to fight his fellow headliner heroes in a movie.

Yes. At the same time, the idea of seeing Superman behave in a less than Super fashion has had a long lasting appeal and tradition. It's been done well and it's been done badly. But while I think Snyder was going way too far, I don't think you can say that it's never been a part of Superman's mythos.

[manofsteel1979]

Like being killed by Doomsday and fighting Batman, a brainwashed Supes was on the list of things that can be done with the character before Snyder came on board. He wasn't the first one pitching "evil Superman" to WB.

Exactly. They were pushing for death of Superman and Bats vs. Supes looking before Zack Snyder was even on the radar. Hell,George Miller's JL movie would have sort of done an evil Superman or a Superman beating up the JL as well.

I firmly still believe that MOS was never meant to be the start of any sort of shared universe,at least when work started on it. It was Nolan and Goyer's (and Snyder's) intention to do a Superman trilogy in the same way Nolan's Batman movie became a Dark Knight trilogy.Sometime during filming and after it came out that plan changed and during the development of an MOS2, the plan changed to do JL in the near future to catch up to Marvel.

So MOS2 Morphed into A Batman/Superman and Wonder Woman team up movie that acted as the first chapter of a three part Justice League epic whose ambitions were unreasonably high and the chance for WB to shoehorn every single one of the things they we're itching to do with Supes on the big screen since they got the movie rights firmly back under their umbrella circa 1993 ish. Zack Snyder was likely glad to incorporate all of it because it admitingly looks cool on paper. Unfortunately every one of those tropes (bats vs. Supes,Supes dead,Supes evil) have long wore out their welcome.

Ironically all of that they conceived COULD have worked AFTER a proper Superman trilogy that firmly established the new version of the character, his cast, his moral code and his journey. Instead they tried to do all of that while doing a Superman trilogy that told the Arc of his development. They needed to be two separate things.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Exactly. They were pushing for death of Superman and Bats vs. Supes looking before Zack Snyder was even on the radar. Hell,George Miller's JL movie would have sort of done an evil Superman or a Superman beating up the JL as well.

I firmly still believe that MOS was never meant to be the start of any sort of shared universe,at least when work started on it. It was Nolan and Goyer's (and Snyder's) intention to do a Superman trilogy in the same way Nolan's Batman movie became a Dark Knight trilogy.Sometime during filming and after it came out that plan changed and during the development of an MOS2, the plan changed to do JL in the near future to catch up to Marvel.

So MOS2 Morphed into A Batman/Superman and Wonder Woman team up movie that acted as the first chapter of a three part Justice League epic whose ambitions were unreasonably high and the chance for WB to shoehorn every single one of the things they we're itching to do with Supes on the big screen since they got the movie rights firmly back under their umbrella circa 1993 ish. Zack Snyder was likely glad to incorporate all of it because it admitingly looks cool on paper. Unfortunately every one of those tropes (bats vs. Supes,Supes dead,Supes evil) have long wore out their welcome.

Ironically all of that they conceived COULD have worked AFTER a proper Superman trilogy that firmly established the new version of the character, his cast, his moral code and his journey. Instead they tried to do all of that while doing a Superman trilogy that told the Arc of his development. They needed to be two separate things.

The Avengers came out in the same year that The Dark Knight Rises did. That horrible Reynolds Green Lantern movie was also made to see if they could do a shared universe (so Waller shows up there). So I do think going in they made it clear that they wanted a Superman that could exist in a shared universe. The problem with Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy is that as entertaining and generally consistent as it is, the way Nolan approached things, the setting, the aesthetic and so on, made it impossible to use that as a shared universe and the third Dark Knight movie gave Batman a definitive ending to his story.

So in theory at least it wasn't a bad idea to ask Snyder to conceive things with an eye on the prize. A World's Finest movie had long been in gestation in DC and the lack of oversight in DC/WB about how to handle the Superhero properties allowed for side-turns, like that Superman Returns movie nostalgia piece. And after Man of Steel, having a Batman/Superman team-up was a neat idea. There wasn't a problem with the ideas in-and-of-itself it's just the way it was executed.

[DCStu]

The thing that winds me up about Zack Snyder is that he makes the wrong decisions with his stories. I'm not one of those "DC should have copied Marvel and did solo movies before the team ups" people cause I think it was important that DC did things a different way. So I've no issue with the actual stories being told I just wish the stories could have been better.

For instance - take Batman V Superman right... that guy in the wheelchair who Luthor uses to bomb the courtroom... how about this...

Luthor turns him into METALLO and he ATTACKS the courtroom! Meaning Superman has to fight him! See the missed opportunity?

And after Doomsday kills Superman, rather than toss off Superman's resurrection in the Justice League film... do a film version of Reign Of The Superman first! See Cavill not only play Superman but other incarnations of him too! Then when everything is said and done... THEN think of a Justice League movie.

In my opinion these things are no brainers.

[Rac7d*]

Nolan was against the Zod Snap. He thought it was ridiculous but Snyder was insistent, and Nolan (probably not wanting to be the guy who says or vetoes another's director's vision...the real reason auteurs should never produce stuff by other auteurs...you need people willing to be "the bad guy" in such jobs) went ahead and backed Snyder on that.

I say make the next movie Metropolis or Earth centered. We've spent so much time about Clark's Kryptonian heritage and Luthor that it's gotten boring. Show Superman dealing with stuff that isn't connected to his doomed planet and center it on Earth or Metropolis specifically

The neck snap was fine, I did not mind the hard choice he had to make
but A batman who kills is basicly deathstroke or Deadshot

[Jokerz79]

The thing that winds me up about Zack Snyder is that he makes the wrong decisions with his stories. I'm not one of those "DC should have copied Marvel and did solo movies before the team ups" people cause I think it was important that DC did things a different way. So I've no issue with the actual stories being told I just wish the stories could have been better.

For instance - take Batman V Superman right... that guy in the wheelchair who Luthor uses to bomb the courtroom... how about this...

Luthor turns him into METALLO and he ATTACKS the courtroom! Meaning Superman has to fight him! See the missed opportunity?

And after Doomsday kills Superman, rather than toss off Superman's resurrection in the Justice League film... do a film version of Reign Of The Superman first! See Cavill not only play Superman but other incarnations of him too! Then when everything is said and done... THEN think of a Justice League movie.

In my opinion these things are no brainers.

Metallo not showing up in any Superman film really bugs me because James Cameron proved with Terminator in 1984 you can make that concept work same for Brainiac if you went Precrisis Robotic Brainiac. I mean now anything can work but they could had worked 36 years ago and it's frustrating just Luthor, Zod, and Nuclear Man and Nuclear Man 2.0 (I'm not calling him Doomsday he had the same origin so he was Nuclear Man 2.0 to me )

[Mia]

I loved MoS. I thought that it was a great film, and I'm in general not a SM fan. But I consider the SM in that film and the Justice League Unlimited my favourite (or most tolerable version) of the character. I hated BvsS and didn't even bother to see Justice League. I'm not a DC fan in general so it really doesn't bother me one way or the other that he's gone. But again I loved MoS and prefered it miles above Superman Returns. In MOS Snyder was clearly borrowing from Spider-man and the X-Men in making Clark an outsiders. He said the found the Donner films boring on re-watch and after the poor box office showing of SR, the success of Nolan's Batman and the released Marvel films he probably thought that making SM a bit more serious as opposed to some un-relatable goody two shoes would play better.

The traditional understanding is Clark gets his morals and sense of duty from the Kents. Yet in the DCEU the Kents are, if anything, a roadblock to Kal becoming Superman. Pa teaches him to fear and doubt himself, and Ma gives only the most tepid of support before telling him he doesn’t owe anyone anything. Ok fine but then where is Clark’s sense of duty coming from? Why does he even want to be Superman? ?

Can you explain where his father told him to fear and doubt himself? Are you talking about the scene before Jonathan's death where he argues with Clark because I don't see him placing any doubt on Clark ablities. And how exactly you came to the conclusion that his parents didn't raise him properly to want to help others or more to the point use his 'powers' for goods. Because the film showed the exact opposite, where Jonathan tries to teach Clark that he needs to be the bigger person. I know many fathers who wouldn't have thought twice about taking Clark and using him to rob banks or hiring him out to dictators, or criminals.

[Vordan]

Exactly. They were pushing for death of Superman and Bats vs. Supes looking before Zack Snyder was even on the radar. Hell,George Miller's JL movie would have sort of done an evil Superman or a Superman beating up the JL as well.

I firmly still believe that MOS was never meant to be the start of any sort of shared universe,at least when work started on it. It was Nolan and Goyer's (and Snyder's) intention to do a Superman trilogy in the same way Nolan's Batman movie became a Dark Knight trilogy.Sometime during filming and after it came out that plan changed and during the development of an MOS2, the plan changed to do JL in the near future to catch up to Marvel.

So MOS2 Morphed into A Batman/Superman and Wonder Woman team up movie that acted as the first chapter of a three part Justice League epic whose ambitions were unreasonably high and the chance for WB to shoehorn every single one of the things they we're itching to do with Supes on the big screen since they got the movie rights firmly back under their umbrella circa 1993 ish. Zack Snyder was likely glad to incorporate all of it because it admitingly looks cool on paper. Unfortunately every one of those tropes (bats vs. Supes,Supes dead,Supes evil) have long wore out their welcome.

Ironically all of that they conceived COULD have worked AFTER a proper Superman trilogy that firmly established the new version of the character, his cast, his moral code and his journey. Instead they tried to do all of that while doing a Superman trilogy that told the Arc of his development. They needed to be two separate things.

WB thought MoS would make a billion and review really well. When it got mixed reviews and didn’t made a billion they blamed the character, told Snyder to start bringing in Batman and what not. They wanted Avengers-tier money. Snyder however also wanted to bring in Batman, he even wanted to put in a post-credit scene where Batman gets Kryptonite. However after BvS flopped critically and underperformed financially, WB started to panic even harder because they were so sure BvS was going to be a hit they had already let Snyder start making JL.

[Superbat]

Coming Soon Shazam: The Snyder Cut

[GreatKungLao]

Coming Soon Shazam: The Snyder Cut

Obviously you are not familiar with his entire filmogrpahy to think that's his only style.