New Batwoman Book?

[Konja7]

There were actually problems as early as March 2012 (around issue #7) when Amy Reeder suddenly left:

https://comicsalliance.com/batwoman-...e-differences/

The thing is if these problems affected the sales, a big fall of sales would happen in one of that months. However, the fall of sales for Batwoman is gradual, but constant.

I would put the sales for Batwoman in 2012:

Batwoman #5 51,924
Batwoman #6 49,227
Batwoman #7 46,974
Batwoman #8 45,341
Batwoman #9 43,942
Batwoman #10 41,014
Batwoman #11 38,980
Batwoman #12 38,064 (Wonder Woman)
Batwoman #13 37,315
Batwoman #14 36,925
Batwoman #15 34,964

[RickWJ324]

But it wasn't. It was still a character-focused piece, just like Elegy and the New 52 series were. And I for one didn't read any of those for the side characters, of all things.



Well... that's not a reason, but whatever.

Not sure what you want from me?! I don't like the character. Plain and simple. She's not an interesting character to me. Perhaps its how she's been written?! Don't know...don't care. She just doesn't do it for me...at least not enough to carry her own title. I think overall, there are too many members of the batfamily and if I were to trim the roster a bit she would be the first to get cut. I get that you like her and that's great. Perhaps with different writers/storylines I could like her as well. As is though, she's an expendable character to me in the batverse.

[Caivu]

The thing is if these problema affected the sales, a big fall of sales would happen in one of that months. However, the fall of sales for Batwoman is gradual, but constant.

Then if that's the case, it's just standard deprecation, so nothing to be concerned about. For a relatively new character who had never had a solo, those are good numbers, especially when DC again didn't promote it that much.

[Oberon]

Yes. And just as often as some characters come and go, with their runs, so too, editorial and other teams change. Some people / editors are/may be more open to taking chances. Batwoman is a very good character for that, because

even without the sales force underneath her, she has establishes a lot of name recognition and goodwill across multiple lines of media and culture. She, like Wonder Woman, Ms. and Captain Marvel and a number of others completely drops in to various women empowerment themes going on right now. It would actually be near-sighted for DC to not take advantage of this.

Certainly they will look at previous sales, but I'm not so sure it would stop her 3rd or umpteenth shot. Think various Nova, New Warriors and other series that keep getting new chances. Kind of the nature of the biz; produce (hopefully) meaningful, shiny colorful things and people will read.

[Konja7]

Then if that's the case, it's just standard deprecation, so nothing to be concerned about. For a relatively new character who had never had a solo, those are good numbers, especially when DC again didn't promote it that much.

You can use the new character thing as explanation, but Batwoman wasn't so different from Nightwing and Batgirl at first. However, Nightwing and Batgirl maintained much better sales over the months (I'm still speaking about W.H. Blackman run).

Now, Batgirl and Nightwing sells 30K and 26K respectively. I don't think Batwoman can mantain a solo in the current market.

[Oberon]

Some characters are difficult to write, if the writer does not really get their voice. I sort of feel this has been Kate's problem, because very few writers have understood her, like her original Elegy and New 52 team did.

But obviously DC feels there is something to this character that engages a selection of the Batfamily audience. I hope these issues can be resolved. I faithfully read the latter series and mostly enjoyed it, but I think her first run in the new 52 really speaks to the Batwoman experience and brand.

[Caivu]

You can use the new character thing as explanation, but Batwoman wasn't so different from Nightwing and Batgirl at first. However, Nightwing and Batgirl maintained much better sales over the months (I'm still speaking about W.H. Blackman run).

What? She was very different, especially since Nightwing and Batgirl have multiple decades of history on her. She also didn't have the advantage of being part of a couple early linewide crossover events.

Some characters are difficult to write, if the writer does not really get their voice. I sort of feel this has been Kate's problem, because very few writers have understood her, like her original Elegy and New 52 team did.

Really? Most writers have gotten her well, even just for guest appearances.

[Konja7]

What? She was very different, especially since Nightwing and Batgirl have multiple decades of history on her. She also didn't have the advantage of being part of a couple early linewide crossover events.

What I wanted to express with my second paragraph is this:

Nightwing and Batgirl, characters with decades of history, are struggling with sales now. So, a relatively new character as Batwoman will have even more problems with sales now.

[millernumber1]

But it wasn't. It was still a character-focused piece, just like Elegy and the New 52 series were. And I for one didn't read any of those for the side characters, of all things.

I mean, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree about Bennett's Batwoman run. You thought it was great - which I'm glad, as you're a much bigger Batwoman fan than I am - but I just think it was mediocre, in addition to not offering what I wanted from a Batwoman book. I love Kate, but a large part of what I love about her is her relationships with her family and supporting cast, and in Bennett's run that was replaced for most of it with relationships with...people I absolutely do not care about, and Bennett did not get me to care about them. Even the person I already cared about, Julia, was pretty much shafted throughout most of the book. I will grant that when Alice came back, I got a lot more invested, but even then, I think Bennett did some really poor choices for storytelling in the conflict with Batman. They worked for you and others, and I'm glad. But it really didn't work for me.

Also: please hear this as from someone who does love Kate herself. I'm not against the character or her getting a solo. I just really didn't enjoy the one we got.

[Oberon]

I mean, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree about Bennett's Batwoman run. You thought it was great - which I'm glad, as you're a much bigger Batwoman fan than I am - but I just think it was mediocre, in addition to not offering what I wanted from a Batwoman book. I love Kate, but a large part of what I love about her is her relationships with her family and supporting cast, and in Bennett's run that was replaced for most of it with relationships with...people I absolutely do not care about, and Bennett did not get me to care about them. Even the person I already cared about, Julia, was pretty much shafted throughout most of the book. I will grant that when Alice came back, I got a lot more invested, but even then, I think Bennett did some really poor choices for storytelling in the conflict with Batman. They worked for you and others, and I'm glad. But it really didn't work for me.

Also: please hear this as from someone who does love Kate herself. I'm not against the character or her getting a solo. I just really didn't enjoy the one we got.

I'm like this. I won't say Bennett's run was mediocre, but it didn't draw me in so completely like the original run. I cannot decide if the character's voice was well realized enough or if the plotting/plots didn't just appeal to me as much as that original run. Maybe a bit of both.

Previously caivu said: Really? Most writers have gotten her well, even just for guest appearances.

Hey, I'm trying to throw some shade. I'm truly a big fan, but feel underwhelmed with a lot of what came since the new 52 first volume. I have complete confidence that either: 1) I will adjust and get over it, or 2) it will again become thrilling and awesome. I want to wait nearly breathlessly for the next issue, like I did in the beginning.

[Bat-Meal]

Bennett's run was a snooze fest, and both Kate and Julia were written as boring IMO. I don't care about Batwoman travelling to the island of Boredom with Julia Pennyworth. An island where apparently everyone on it knows her real identity as Kate Kane, so she has nothing to hide so there is a lack of dramatic tension and stakes when her ex, and ex's jealous girlfriend find out.

Jake and Bette are vital to Batwoman's story, cutting them is like Batman without Alfred and any of his robins existing in his life. Yet Andreyko, and Bennett both seemed to cut them. Tynion made Jake an antagonist, and also cut Bette (why couldn't Bette have been in the Gotham Knights instead of sent off to Westpoint, as an excuse to only see her in extremely rare cameos.

I am first-and-foremost a Batman Family fan...When she turned on Batman in the comics I really wish Bruce had stripped her of the bat costume and name.

Batwoman doesn't unquestioningly submit to Batman and his rules. The dynamic between Batman and Batwoman is different than it is with the other members. She isn't one of his kids, students, nor did she seek his approval before donning the cowl. It's kinda like when a kid starts a club or activity and their little sibling/cousin decides to join in and you can't stop them (j/k).

And he cannot fully enforce his leadership like he did when he chased Jason out of Gotham, because she causes him to question himself - as seen in 'the Trial of Batwoman', and when she told him to get counselling for the Knights. He also advises her on various things throughout that 'Tec run as well, it ran both ways.

They fight because without family drama things can get stale, so the writers find reasons to make them squabble like siblings, or rather, cousins. And no matter how much they fight, eventually they'll be on good terms again.

I think overall, there are too many members of the batfamily and if I were to trim the roster a bit she would be the first to get cut.

Cut the gay Jewish batfamily member? That'd be a great look for DC. Just saying.

[Godlike13]

Bennett's run was a snooze fest, and both Kate and Julia were written as boring IMO. I don't care about Batwoman travelling to the island of Boredom with Julia Pennyworth. An island where apparently everyone on it knows her real identity as Kate Kane, so she has nothing to hide so there is a lack of dramatic tension and stakes when her ex, and ex's jealous girlfriend find out.

Jake and Bette are vital to Batwoman's story, cutting them is like Batman without Alfred and any of his robins existing in his life. Yet Andreyko, and Bennett both seemed to cut them. Tynion made Jake an antagonist, and also cut Bette (why couldn't Bette have been in the Gotham Knights instead of sent off to Westpoint, as an excuse to only see her in extremely rare cameos.

This about sums up my feelings on her last series too.

[astro@work]

I mean, I don't think you and I are ever going to agree about Bennett's Batwoman run. You thought it was great - which I'm glad, as you're a much bigger Batwoman fan than I am - but I just think it was mediocre, in addition to not offering what I wanted from a Batwoman book. I love Kate, but a large part of what I love about her is her relationships with her family and supporting cast, and in Bennett's run that was replaced for most of it with relationships with...people I absolutely do not care about, and Bennett did not get me to care about them. Even the person I already cared about, Julia, was pretty much shafted throughout most of the book. I will grant that when Alice came back, I got a lot more invested, but even then, I think Bennett did some really poor choices for storytelling in the conflict with Batman. They worked for you and others, and I'm glad. But it really didn't work for me.

Also: please hear this as from someone who does love Kate herself. I'm not against the character or her getting a solo. I just really didn't enjoy the one we got.

Pretty much sums up my opinion, as someone who likes Kate a lot and was rooting for a Batwoman book to succeed. I think Bennet moved to quickly into the Safiyah/ missing year storyline without building any anticipation toward it. Immediately gone were Jacob, Bette, and Gotham in the interest of answering questions we weren’t asking. I don’t think Kate was written out of character by any means, but I wanted to see Kate interacting with her own unique supporting cast...that we already know and like. By the time Alice came back, it was too late (readership wise). If Bennet had done a first arc in Gotham first to build up some mystery, the lost years arc might have caught on better.

[Caivu]

Bennett's run was a snooze fest, and both Kate and Julia were written as boring IMO. I don't care about Batwoman travelling to the island of Boredom with Julia Pennyworth.

Why not? It was a great premise with good character work. What's not to like? I honestly don't get how it's supposed to be boring.

An island where apparently everyone on it knows her real identity as Kate Kane, so she has nothing to hide so there is a lack of dramatic tension and stakes when her ex, and ex's jealous girlfriend find out.

They lived with her for a year. Of course they know who she is. Plus she needed to get their trust to help her.

Jake and Bette are vital to Batwoman's story, cutting them is like Batman without Alfred and any of his robins existing in his life.

Are you serious? They aren't vital in the same way Alfred is vital. What would they even have done here?

I don't get where all this excessive emphasis on her original side characters comes from. They're important, but she's not joined at the hip to them. I'm starting to feel like the only one who reads Kate's stuff for, y'know, Kate.

why couldn't Bette have been in the Gotham Knights instead of sent off to Westpoint, as an excuse to only see her in extremely rare cameos.

Because Kate wouldn't have agreed to train her again. That wouldn't make sense for her to do.

If Bennet had done a first arc in Gotham first to build up some mystery, the lost years arc might have caught on better.

But that wouldn't make sense. It's supposed to come out of nowhere, since it's shocking to Kate. It's a repressed memory coming back and smacking her in the face, genuinely rattling her in a way she's never really been before.

[Bat-Meal]

Why not? It was a great premise with good character work. What's not to like? I honestly don't get how it's supposed to be boring.

The pacing was slow, the characters were not interesting, and I didn't care for the premise. Batwoman's past has been explored in her previous solo, and it was done better. The Lost Year concept was unnecessary, and didn't add anything of value IMO. I wanted to read Batwoman adventures, not Introspection-Woman reflects on the past and annoys Julia Pennyworth by not washing the dishes.

They lived with her for a year. Of course they know who she is. Plus she needed to get their trust to help her.

Batman and other Batfamily members manage to gain people's trust and build temporary teams without revealing their identity. Why even bother with her Batwoman equipment at all if her identity is known, why even make this a Batwoman story at all if her identity as the Batwoman serves no purpose.

Are you serious? They aren't vital in the same way Alfred is vital. What would they even have done here? I don't get where all this excessive emphasis on her original side characters comes from. They're important, but she's not joined at the hip to them. I'm starting to feel like the only one who reads Kate's stuff for, y'know, Kate.

So being rescued by her father was irrelevant. Growing-up learning from her father's example and wanting to be a soldier like him had no purpose in her life. Wanting her father to look after her when she was a drunk and emotional mess meant nothing. Her father's support when she came out, and his support when he discovered she wanted to be a vigilante meant nothing. Her father's tech support when she's on a mission - no point to it. Her sense of betrayal every time she learns he has lied to her to protect her - she actually didn't care, she just acted upset for the sake of it.

Because Kate wouldn't have agreed to train her again. That wouldn't make sense for her to do.

Bette is also of no concern to Kate. She isn't hesitant to have her as a sidekick because she is worried about her getting hurt - Kate could care less, which is why she doesn't react at all when Bette almost dies in the original solo. She also isn't at all happy when Bette returns as Hawkfire, in the middle of a fight, as backup.

It's not as though Bette continued to be her sidekick until Andreyko wrote Bette having broken ribs and leaving town to recover...And then no one bothered to write her recovering and returning, and instead she randomly with no prior explanation turns out to be a West Point, exit stage left. Prior to this she was studying sports medicine in Gotham...when did she graduate from that anyway...

But that wouldn't make sense. It's supposed to come out of nowhere, since it's shocking to Kate. It's a repressed memory coming back and smacking her in the face, genuinely rattling her in a way she's never really been before.

Shocking to Kate? It was more shocking to those of us who were looking forward to some great Batwoman adventures, and got the island of Boredom instead. Though I suppose it must also have been a shock to Kate.


I'm not trying to upset you Caivu, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this - for me that last solo was awful. And Jacob and Bette are Batwoman's core family members, Kate needs them to bounce off of, they share more than blood but also a history. Safiya and Knife's history with Kate did not exist prior to that last solo, and their introduction did nothing for me. They did not matter in her life prior to that solo, and I actually doubt they will matter all that much afterwards (aside from a few fights here and there 'cos Batwoman needs someone to punch). Furthermore, Julia and Kate had no chemistry, Bette and Kate work better for me.