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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by moali6705 View Post
    What's a guy to do when your professional wrestling license gets revoked after an investigation is conducted following an editorial by J. Jonah Jameson? Why, the answer is simple! You wait about ten years until theSarkari Result Pnr Status 192.168.1.1opportunity presents itself to attack The Daily Bugle in a mechanical grizzly bear suit you obtained that makes you super strong! It's a tale as old as time, really.
    like i said i love spider man just that

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by moali6705 View Post
    What's a guy to do when your professional wrestling license gets revoked after an investigation is conducted following an editorial by J. Jonah Jameson? Why, the answer is simple! You wait about ten years until the opportunity presents itself to attack The Daily Bugle in a mechanical grizzly bear suit you obtained that makes you super strong! It's a tale as old as time, really.
    Many of the villains have origins like that sadly. They were good for their time but people expect a little bit more now.

  3. #18

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    The earlier villains have the prime mover advantage. They came first, so others are seen as redundant if they fill the same role. New villains will have to do a bit more.

    There is also the point that the classic villains benefit from designs by Ditko and Romita, as well as relatively strong first (and often second) stories.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The earlier villains have the prime mover advantage. They came first, so others are seen as redundant if they fill the same role. New villains will have to do a bit more.

    There is also the point that the classic villains benefit from designs by Ditko and Romita, as well as relatively strong first (and often second) stories.
    The other thing is that most rogues gallery in Superman or Batman evolved over time. Whereas Ditko created them all by himself in a very short time. Ditko was also an apprentice of Jerry Robinson, co-creator of Joker and Batman was one of his favorite comics, so he had the advantage of several decades trial-and-error and resting on shoulders of giants.

    Batman comics after the initial three decades or so plateaued in terms of new lasting villains -- Ra's Al Ghul from O'Neill/Adams is the biggest new villain that's in the 70s (40+ years after character's debut). After Ra's you had Bane who was the biggest new villain. Since then we've had some flash-in-the-pan villains with strong debuts but no heat (Hush), as well as one or two minor psychopaths like Professor Pyg. In the case of Superman, the big new villain is Brainiac (from the 50s) and after him it's Doomsday (the 90s).

    So on that light, Spider-Man's pretty natural in terms of it being hard to introduce new pantheon villains to the mix. After a point you hit a natural plateau.

    That's also the case with X-Men, where initially they had Magneto, Juggernaut, the Sentinels, Mimic and a few others. Then the Claremont era brought in Hellfire Club, Arcade, Phoenix, Mister Sinister, William Stryker. Then after him you had Apocalypse. The most recent big new villain is from Grant Morrison's run with Cassandra Nova.

    Fantastic Four have it worse in my view. There's not a real lasting new villain outside the Lee-Kirby run.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The other thing is that most rogues gallery in Superman or Batman evolved over time. Whereas Ditko created them all by himself in a very short time. Ditko was also an apprentice of Jerry Robinson, co-creator of Joker and Batman was one of his favorite comics, so he had the advantage of several decades trial-and-error and resting on shoulders of giants.

    Batman comics after the initial three decades or so plateaued in terms of new lasting villains -- Ra's Al Ghul from O'Neill/Adams is the biggest new villain that's in the 70s (40+ years after character's debut). After Ra's you had Bane who was the biggest new villain. Since then we've had some flash-in-the-pan villains with strong debuts but no heat (Hush), as well as one or two minor psychopaths like Professor Pyg. In the case of Superman, the big new villain is Brainiac (from the 50s) and after him it's Doomsday (the 90s).

    So on that light, Spider-Man's pretty natural in terms of it being hard to introduce new pantheon villains to the mix. After a point you hit a natural plateau.

    That's also the case with X-Men, where initially they had Magneto, Juggernaut, the Sentinels, Mimic and a few others. Then the Claremont era brought in Hellfire Club, Arcade, Phoenix, Mister Sinister, William Stryker. Then after him you had Apocalypse. The most recent big new villain is from Grant Morrison's run with Cassandra Nova.

    Fantastic Four have it worse in my view. There's not a real lasting new villain outside the Lee-Kirby run.
    Of course, "Big" villain, criminal masterminds / kingpins, powerhouses, the bit more enigmatic, who for a while, did five steps ahead of the hero. Not many "Bigs" come by, because if they do, they won't be "Big".

    Lemme clarify on one of the heroes I recall of early nineties: the Savage Dragon, who, like most other premier Image heroes, peak was the early-mid nineties. To oppose him on the streets of Chicago, there was Mako. There was Octopus. There was Splitface. There was Arachnid. I even remember Horde. But as vicious, over-the-top, standouts as they all were from the average zoot-suited tommy gunned mobster types, they all answer to one bold, imposing man: Overlord, the "Big" villain, whose only distinguishment was his calculating crime organizing and his wired costume; underneath is just a man, while the rest he leads were a bunch of monstrous freaks.

    To say those monstrous freaks are not "Big" villains, thus not great villains, they don't count?

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    To say those monstrous freaks are not "Big" villains, thus not great villains, they don't count?
    Not sure what you're talking about to be honest.

    What I meant by a big villain is
    1) Fame,
    2) Character Design -- Costume, look, props, powers, name, theme.
    3) Impact -- Adaptation, Influence, Reference.

    These are all subjective criteria of course. But there's consensus behind it. If you say Jack Kirby's Fourth World's biggest, most famous, and influential character is Darkseid...I think you would be expressing the consensus view.

    I think if you look at Batman Rogues after the Silver Age...the consensus would agree that Ra's Al Ghul and Bane are the two biggest new villains. There are gray areas of course for instance characters like Scarecrow or Mister Freeze who originated in the Silver Age but who were radically reinterpreted and altered long after that, this also applies to Joker famously. There's also the case of Harley Quinn who broke big and is indeed a major character but she's weird in that she's famous for being essentially a B-list villain sidekick and darkly comic character...and now she's becoming an anti-hero of some kind. But if we are talk about villainous characters outright then it has to be Ra's and Bane.

  7. #22
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    I feel like a lot of Spider-Man villains rely on powers as their main appeal and not having much of a personality gimmick. I can't remember a single personality trait about like Electro for exmaple...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I feel like a lot of Spider-Man villains rely on powers as their main appeal and not having much of a personality gimmick. I can't remember a single personality trait about like Electro for exmaple...
    Some are more consistent than others like Sandman and Doc Ock.

    That being said, my favorite interpretation of Kraven was the TAS version in spite of it probably being the worst adaptation of him.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Some are more consistent than others like Sandman and Doc Ock.

    That being said, my favorite interpretation of Kraven was the TAS version in spite of it probably being the worst adaptation of him.
    Doc Ock, Lizard, Green Goblin, and Kraven are the standouts for me in terms of personality.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not sure what you're talking about to be honest.

    What I meant by a big villain is
    1) Fame,
    2) Character Design -- Costume, look, props, powers, name, theme.
    3) Impact -- Adaptation, Influence, Reference.

    These are all subjective criteria of course. But there's consensus behind it. If you say Jack Kirby's Fourth World's biggest, most famous, and influential character is Darkseid...I think you would be expressing the consensus view.

    I think if you look at Batman Rogues after the Silver Age...the consensus would agree that Ra's Al Ghul and Bane are the two biggest new villains. There are gray areas of course for instance characters like Scarecrow or Mister Freeze who originated in the Silver Age but who were radically reinterpreted and altered long after that, this also applies to Joker famously. There's also the case of Harley Quinn who broke big and is indeed a major character but she's weird in that she's famous for being essentially a B-list villain sidekick and darkly comic character...and now she's becoming an anti-hero of some kind. But if we are talk about villainous characters outright then it has to be Ra's and Bane.
    Still, you are discounting others, such as the seventies Batman also had Black Spider and Doctor Phosphorus, and the eighties introduced Killer Croc and Black Mask, then Scarface and Ratcatcher.


    But Spider-Man's, I'd still say, the last of the traditional, long-term big bad guys, would be Carnage. I don't really consider Morlun "traditional" or "long term" since he mostly played in a few major stories that each one ended with him either dying, or marooned, not knowing when or if he'll return from each of them.



    Growing up reading Spider-Man 1995 - up, one of my favorite Spidey-reading periods, 1995 - 1998:

    Kaine, big player during Ben Reilly's terms as Scarlet Spider and Spider-Man, whose villain card after 1996 would be in question.

    Doctor Octopus II / "Lady Octopus", majorly was 1995 - 1997, then not really significantly back, Spider-Girl not counted, until recently, which I believe after Spencer's run, she may be forgotten again.

    Gaunt, 1996 - 1997, before being revealed as old "Robot Master", Mendel Stromm, then when used again, re-adopted "Robot Master" identity.

    Delilah, 1996 - 1998, after initial major defeat, 1998, she was extremely sparingly used since.

    Black Tarantula, 1996 - 1998, afterwards Daredevil adopted him into his pages since.
    Last edited by ngroove; 10-13-2019 at 02:54 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Still, you are discounting others, such as the seventies Batman also had Black Spider and Doctor Phosphorus, and the eighties introduced Killer Croc and Black Mask, then Scarface and Ratcatcher.
    I forgot Killer Croc (who's the biggest of this lot, and created by Gerry Conway too).

    But I'd still think that Ra's and Bane were bigger than all of these.

    But Spider-Man's, I'd still say, the last of the traditional, long-term big bad guys, would be Carnage.
    I'd agree.

  12. #27
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    Well reminded. I really liked Delilah and Black Tarantula.

    From the 80s we have Puma. Created by DeFalco, right?
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  13. #28
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    The Ditko/Romita era villains have the novelty effect to them.

    Spidey always had meaningful villains throughout his history.

    he had Morbius and the Jackal in the 70s.
    Hobgoblin and Sin-Eater in the 80s.
    Venom and Carnage in the 90s.
    Morlun and Mr. Negative in the 2000s.
    Kindred seems to be well received so far.
    Last edited by AlexCampy89; 10-13-2019 at 03:07 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I feel like a lot of Spider-Man villains rely on powers as their main appeal and not having much of a personality gimmick. I can't remember a single personality trait about like Electro for exmaple...
    Elektro sees himself as a chamion of the people, paragon of the middle-classes, stalwarth of the blue-collars who hates the rich and the powerful. All in all, while retaining a childish, immature and narcissistic personality.


    on the very contrary, every major Spider-Man villain has personality. Thanks to Nick Spencer's Superior Foes of Spider-Man, even few b-listers have personality.

    Shocker is a coward, interested only in money.
    Scorpion (as seen in Sweet Charity) once had a normal life, loathes his previous job as Private Eye, and still hates JJJ and Spider-Man for ruining his life.

    Rhino (as seen in the Oksana saga leading to the Gauntlet by Dan Slott) is a literal man-child, with cognitive challenges but good heart and a wish to start anew, away from crime.


    vulture is a sadistic sob, but he cares for his family (Marvel's Knights Spider-Man run)

    Norman Osborn is literally Joker AND Lex Luthor merged into one.


    Almost all of Spidey villains have personality.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
    Well reminded. I really liked Delilah and Black Tarantula.

    From the 80s we have Puma. Created by DeFalco, right?
    Puma, created by Tom DeFalco during his first Amazing Spider-Man run, one of my favorites from the eighties back issues, I would say, was a major Spider-Man villain / ally / character, from 1984 to 1991; then afterwards, changed to "sometimes" Spider-Man villain / ally / character since.

    Another one of my favorites from the eighties, the Rose, Richard Fisk (previously Schemer, 1970) whom was a major recurring villain from 1984 to "Gang War", 1987, which somehow always struck me by the common visual of him, purple masked in a suit, pruning roses on his penthouse garden, Johnston and Varley bodyguarding him, with double-crossing thoughts to murder "partner", Hobgoblin, once his purpose, to rival the Kingpin, was fulfilled.

    Yeah, speaking of Delilah, there was (a) Rose there too, I remember back in 1996 he made it sound like he was still Richard Fisk, before mid 1998 unmasked him as wimpy Jacob Conover, whom as far as I recall, he turned to crime from spite after being fired from the Daily Bugle, such an anticlimactic end.
    Last edited by ngroove; 10-14-2019 at 11:09 PM.

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