Fantastic Four #8 (SPOILERS)

[Jman27]

read the issue but I think i miss when Doom went back to full-blown villain? Was it when he got his face re scar in Bendis Iron Man?

[SuperiorIronman]

read the issue but I think i miss when Doom went back to full-blown villain? Was it when he got his face re scar in Bendis Iron Man?

It happened with Slott. He was still heroic in Iron man and MTIO.

[lordozone]

Ok, like I said a classic FF story who totally forget every former developments of Doom. Doom don't neeed to be a Hero. We need good Villains since Octopus, Loki, Sabretooth, Magneto are now at best anti-hero. But after Secret Wars, you can't just use Doom like nothing happened. A Doom who try to kill the FF for no good reason, A Doom scientifically bested by Reed Richard who save the day from his hubris... I have read this story a hundred time. I know it's difficult to write FF after Hickman, but Dan Slott is better than that.

[CaptCleghorn]

I will continue to main the origin is a HUGE part of the FF. They were a team before they got powers and stealing the rocket was their first adventure. An updated origin should be tweaked to get each character a role on the ship but outside of that, come on, stealing a rocketship is an adventure in itself. If a movie company can't make a film out of that, they really need to find another line of work.

Doom's origins are tied into the FF (primarily Reed and maybe Ben though). FF stories and Doom stories can both exist without the other and they really should. But the early return of Doom was necessary due to the stories in Infamous, M2I1, and Secret Wars. Should Doom be almost a supporting cast member? I don't think so. Hickman did, but that was due to his overarching story. One big story over FF, Avengers, and Secret Wars to come down to Reed vs Doom in issue 9. Then the Multiverse returns and Reed and family vanish. Yeah, the "how are they doing now?" question needed to be asked and asked soon.

But going on, I do NOT want to see the FF watchdogging Doom. I do not want to see Doom fixated on Reed and family. Obviously, they're going to cross paths again. This is far from my first rodeo. But the Doom and Latveria setting can and should be expanded to fit a much wider berth of the Marvel Universe. The FF, family, and their exploration should be far more than beating Doom up in four to six issues.

Doom and the FF need time apart after this.

[Inversed]

Doctor Doom is far scarier and cunning than given credit for. He builds machines which by all accounts believe they are human and serve Doom. They are every bit as real as you and I but are disposable. That's freighting as it pertains to rights of the sentient, but even scarier is that with the right blend, you nor they even know who they serve until they have to act. Doom can go anywhere thanks to diplomatic immunity, but he's also a technological super power in of himself and a walking WMD. Even if he didn't just fly or teleport in, there is nothing you can do about his presence. Even worse is that he's so powerful that he is a match for the mightiest of mortals and even gods.
Doom is such a powerful entity that he runs a whole country who has no idea how to function without him. He has for all his faults improved the lives of the people of Latveria to the point they can do nothing but swear loyalty to him. The reason being is that his plans do work and would work if not for the intervention of superheroes who take matters into their own hands on personal or ethical grounds.
Doom is the ultimate villain because for all accounts he is right, but the way he goes about that is ethically wrong. Beyond his hatred of Reed, this is a man who is consumed by his desire to do good and in the process the road to Hell is paved in good intentions. Except their is one major flaw in that; Victor not only does not care for his own soul, he's stronger than the Devil. He is a man who genuinely believes in what he does and that it's necessary. He has the fortitude to take the devil in a fist fight or pay for his crimes, because he's Doom. He's better than you because he's Doom and that's reason enough that he do what needs doing.

You don't introduce Doom as a mustache twirling villain or solely tie him to the FF. The Fantastic Four are not about him nor is it about his rivalry with Reed Richards. This rivalry with Reed is not all there is because Doom's intentions extend far beyond Latveria and even the world as Secret Wars 2015 has shown. He's not locked in the Silver Age, it informs his style, but this is an antagonist, not a villain. He's the four's opponent but not a monster nor an idiot and we shouldn't loose sight of that.

That's why I think Hickman's portrayal is the best approach, as seen in his FF, New Avengers, and Secret Wars, he'll do some immoral things in order to help better himself or his country, but he's not going out of his way to ruin other peoples lives or picking fights like he would back in the day. (The Children's Crusade and Fraction's F4 are the exceptions given how he's portrayed in those, and then Robinson's F4 is weird cause he kind of does it both ways).

I didn't mind the change at first because his development made some sense, even though Slott didn't feel like really showing it, he failed at being a hero, but thinks he now has a second chance to make it up to his country and help it prosper again. Something like luring Galactus to Earth so he can use its power as resources is dangerous, but ultimately he's not trying to hurt or cause pain to anyone else, so its a logical step for his plan. But then you have the full-fledged egotistical ramblings, which he (mostly) got over in Infamous and M2IO, and the torture chambers/planned deaths, and that just swings way too far into back to pure villainy for me. Would've preferred a better buildup if we were gonna have this personality come back so soon.

[CaptCleghorn]

That's why I think Hickman's portrayal is the best approach, as seen in his FF, New Avengers, and Secret Wars, he'll do some immoral things in order to help better himself or his country, but he's not going out of his way to ruin other peoples lives or picking fights like he would back in the day. (The Children's Crusade and Fraction's F4 are the exceptions given how he's portrayed in those, and then Robinson's F4 is weird cause he kind of does it both ways).

I didn't mind the change at first because his development made some sense, even though Slott didn't feel like really showing it, he failed at being a hero, but thinks he now has a second chance to make it up to his country and help it prosper again. Something like luring Galactus to Earth so he can use its power as resources is dangerous, but ultimately he's not trying to hurt or cause pain to anyone else, so its a logical step for his plan. But then you have the full-fledged egotistical ramblings, which he (mostly) got over in Infamous and M2IO, and the torture chambers/planned deaths, and that just swings way too far into back to pure villainy for me. Would've preferred a better buildup if we were gonna have this personality come back so soon.

Up until his turning on the FF, Doom's actions fit in with his previous portrayals. Granted some of us disliked his using galactus so easily, but the general direction of his intentions fit, only the magnitude of the actions was a problem.

The new Doom could be used for occasional heroic escapades, but he'd never have the trust of the superhero community. I can get into that. I can get into him doing stuff with reasonably good intentions and having others disagree with his methods or goals. We've had a couple of Civil Wars, for crying out loud. Differences in methods are a tried and true story idea.

Part of my thinks Slott wrote this just so he could have Sue pants Doom. Convince me I'm wrong.

[Crimz]

Part of my thinks Slott wrote this just so he could have Sue pants Doom. Convince me I'm wrong.

A problem I've had with Doom is that his only reason to target the FF is Reed. It makes all his stories with the FF Reed focused and predictable. This kind of changes that. Sue just disrespected him more than anyone has before in front of an entire galaxy. Now his motivations may not be so Reed focused in the future, especially depending on what happens next issue. Maybe that's what Slott is trying to do?

[CaptCleghorn]

A problem I've had with Doom is that his only reason to target the FF is Reed. It makes all his stories with the FF Reed focused and predictable. This kind of changes that. Sue just disrespected him more than anyone has before in front of an entire galaxy. Now his motivations may not be so Reed focused in the future, especially depending on what happens next issue. Maybe that's what Slott is trying to do?

That's definitely finding a silver lining in all of this. Wasn't there some sort of hype abut an event in this issue having a lasting effect on the relationship?

[SuperiorIronman]

A battle of intellectuals
A physically superior opponent who has actually crushed his hands
A hot headed American who has indeed set fire to his work and gets praise for it despite the progression in science destroyed
Susan Storm pulled his pants down in front of the class

That's a big deal for a galaxy but even if Victor is nude, isn't it irrelevant if he's got a tiny sausage considering he's apparently Deadpool levels of disfigured now? And even if he did still have it, why would it work for that, and why would he be in size comparing mode anyways? Also, isn't that only relevant to Earth? Are we really to assume everybodie's got the same hardware out in the galaxy? And even then, who exactly is going to call him out for it and expect to walk away unscathed? The only reason Sue is going to be fine is because she's a main character. And even then Victor ran around Latveria for some reason in a bit of cloth he tied with rope to his waist. Meaning that the Latverian people have likely seen his everlasting gobstopper. The only reason he's in armor again is because for some reason that's what motivates the people. Otherwise he's been content to fight lions in less and fought a revolution in what might as well be a loin cloth.

And are we really going to expect people to give him shit if he really is going to provide "unlimited energy" from Galactus which would prevent him (presumably) from eating planets that aren't Earth? This guy was vain enough to hide his face even when the damage wasn't that bad to his face so even if he was embarrassed like that, who is going to risk their planet or nation not getting Power cosmic?

[Crimz]

A battle of intellectuals
A physically superior opponent who has actually crushed his hands
A hot headed American who has indeed set fire to his work and gets praise for it despite the progression in science destroyed
Susan Storm pulled his pants down in front of the class

That's a big deal for a galaxy but even if Victor is nude, isn't it irrelevant if he's got a tiny sausage considering he's apparently Deadpool levels of disfigured now? And even if he did still have it, why would it work for that, and why would he be in size comparing mode anyways? Also, isn't that only relevant to Earth? Are we really to assume everybodie's got the same hardware out in the galaxy? And even then, who exactly is going to call him out for it and expect to walk away unscathed? The only reason Sue is going to be fine is because she's a main character. And even then Victor ran around Latveria for some reason in a bit of cloth he tied with rope to his waist. Meaning that the Latverian people have likely seen his everlasting gobstopper. The only reason he's in armor again is because for some reason that's what motivates the people. Otherwise he's been content to fight lions in less and fought a revolution in what might as well be a loin cloth.

And are we really going to expect people to give him shit if he really is going to provide "unlimited energy" from Galactus which would prevent him (presumably) from eating planets that aren't Earth? This guy was vain enough to hide his face even when the damage wasn't that bad to his face so even if he was embarrassed like that, who is going to risk their planet or nation not getting Power cosmic?

The Ben thing happened decades ago and is not even mentioned, that's how little it impacted his relationship with him in the long run.
The Johnny thing is a reach because his reason to hate Johnny is becuase he's associated with Reed. That's basically the reason he targets them. Reed.

She unmasked him to an entire galaxy. Doom used to kill people for even coming close to seeing his scarred face. Everyone knows how Doom feels about his face. This could be an attempt to make the dynamic less Reed centered.


Plus the Galactus thing is going to fail.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Eventually someone needs to do a story that accepts that in science, "superiority" and "smarter than" isn't a thing. It's not really a rat race except in the sense of getting credit/patent/grant money then yes but just because Einstein was a super-genius that didn't mean Niels Bohr or Planck or Woflgang Pauli and others were hacks and losers.

Dr. Doom is a genius and Reed is a genius. There's no real meaningful way one can say that either is smarter than the other except in terms of fan speak and caveman testosterone poisoning and basically moral and value judgments.

[Michael Watkins]

A battle of intellectuals
A physically superior opponent who has actually crushed his hands
A hot headed American who has indeed set fire to his work and gets praise for it despite the progression in science destroyed
Susan Storm pulled his pants down in front of the class

That's a big deal for a galaxy but even if Victor is nude, isn't it irrelevant if he's got a tiny sausage considering he's apparently Deadpool levels of disfigured now? And even if he did still have it, why would it work for that, and why would he be in size comparing mode anyways? Also, isn't that only relevant to Earth? Are we really to assume everybodie's got the same hardware out in the galaxy? And even then, who exactly is going to call him out for it and expect to walk away unscathed? The only reason Sue is going to be fine is because she's a main character. And even then Victor ran around Latveria for some reason in a bit of cloth he tied with rope to his waist. Meaning that the Latverian people have likely seen his everlasting gobstopper. The only reason he's in armor again is because for some reason that's what motivates the people. Otherwise he's been content to fight lions in less and fought a revolution in what might as well be a loin cloth.

And are we really going to expect people to give him shit if he really is going to provide "unlimited energy" from Galactus which would prevent him (presumably) from eating planets that aren't Earth? This guy was vain enough to hide his face even when the damage wasn't that bad to his face so even if he was embarrassed like that, who is going to risk their planet or nation not getting Power cosmic?

i'm not sure what your point is. so i'm going to guess. it's not about his small dingus. it's that he thought that he was in complete control of the situation. he loses face by being "disrobed" by Sue. it's the equivalent of being given a swirly. the focus isn't on the people who see it. it's how Doom feels about it. his ego is fragile enough that he was hurt by this action. she might as well have given him a small scar on his cheek.

[Michael Watkins]

I think you could start him out that way only unseen. I've always thought the way to go with Doom is the sort of like the way it was done with the mysterious Keyser Sose in Usual Suspects. Have someone tell a terrifying story of his origin and keep Doom on the down low ...pulling strings at the center of some grand scheme where the operatives don't even know they are working for Doom.

As for Lector, he was the one common element in all those movies. I'm betting people remember him more than Buffalo Bill or Mason Verger or Francis Dollarhyde, aka Tooth Fairy.

you must not spend much time on facebook. the buffalo bill meme is hugely popular. Family Guy has riffed his more memorable scenes a bunch.

[Michael Watkins]

After the two earlier movies royally f--ked up the origin, I doubt that. The FF origin can be done in a throwaway fashion. FF#1 treated it perfunctorily. After the space-flight cosmic radiation and crash, they all place hands on top, and Thing says sarcastically, "I guess we have to save the world and mankind right". The origin of the four was never very essential or important to them. The important thing about the four is the adventures, the villains, the crazy settings, and the action. It's all about that moment in 'This Man this Monster'..."The highway to eternity--the junction to everywhere". That's what counts. And it can be done.

Take X-Men 1. That movie doesn't give us the origin of the mutants, the origin of Wolverine, the origin of the X-Men. The later films fleshed that out and the only time it worked was First Class since that gave a cool origin story of Magneto, X-Men and their entire rivalry and so on, whereas the Wolverine origin movie was a terrible movie.

it became a terrible movie when they strayed away from the origin; same with X-Men First Class. to me, a very compelling story was set up by Logan and Victor developing from children to immortal soldiers. that opening almost told a complete story. you saw the break between he and "Sabretooth." and I liked the relationship between Logan and Silver Fox. but the studio decided to step in. they added all of those dodgy elements to it (fat suit Blob, a rapper, and mute Deadpool). fast forward to First Class. Magneto's story (and his interaction with Xavier) is just as strong as it was in the first X-Men movie. his vendetta with the Hellfire Club was good stuff. but the studio wanted to also stuff the X-Men and Jennifer Lawrence into it.

[Michael Watkins]

I will say that while the origin is not too important or essential for us to see/know in the case of the FF, Victor's origin story is essential to understanding him and it's at the center of every major story about him. Without Doom's origin from 616 he doesn't work as a character. Not in Ultimate Doom (which is the worst of all Dooms), not in Josh Trank's Doom, and not in the Tim Story movie. And Doctor Doom's origin is in my opinion, one of the greatest stories in all of Marvel and the best villain origin by a huge margin. It's never been done in live action, and to do real justice to it, you kind of need to do it with him.

Sandman's backstory is more compelling that Doctor Doom's.