Fantastic Four #8 (SPOILERS)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What I love about the Reed/Doom dynamic is Reed has a dark side, but usually because he looks at problems too rationally and often coldly. We see many examples of Evil Reeds running around in other dimensions with one slight difference in their histories. Doom is kind oif the opposite. He wants to do what he thinks is the right thing, but his self-interest is a big part of that. Doom pulled a planet out of nothing for Secret Wars. Reed had a ship. But we saw who was willing to do what during Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers run.

Reed's a lighter grey with dark shadows; Doom's a darker grey hiding a light.

I agree with that. Reed is still the hero and the good guy. But he's selfish, he always acts thinking he knows what to do best. He lies to his wife constantly and keeps going behind her back to do stuff. Ben Grimm will always be on his conscience as he should be, because Reed screwed him out of a normal life, and Ben has to watch while Reed and Sue have children and raise them, knowing that would never happen for him.

I always think that Ben Grimm and Doctor Doom are parallel lines in relation to Reed. Dr. Doom hates Reed and blames him for stuff he didn't do, Ben Grimm loves Reed despite the fact that Reed is truly responsible for his fate and condition. And in a way, Dr. Doom is kind of like this incarnation of Reed's bad conscience in the way Jameson is for Peter Parker. Jameson hates Spider-Man irrationally accusing him of being a glory hound and so on, but deep down Spider-Man would have to admit that there was a time in his life that he was exactly like how Jameson constantly accuses of him being. Similar, Reed would have to admit, that it's true that his accident and arrogance did get someone scarred and mutilated and that he didn't exactly listen to Ben Grimm when he voiced misgivings about that rocket launch, the way he tried to warn Victor.

Personally as a reader, I tend to relate more to Doctor Doom than I do Reed. And I think that's true for a lot of people across the world. Doom is the poor guy from a minority who came from nothing became an immigrant and used his brilliance and cunning to make himself bigger and tougher than anyone and always backing his boast. Whereas Reed is the normal guy for whom everything worked out. He's brilliant, got a great career, fell in love with a nice girl, and he and she got the cool set of powers that didn't affect their ability to have kids.

[U.N. Owen]

Now that I've allowed by thoughts to collect and settle, here's my two cents:

The scenes where Galactus is locked up were dumb. First, where is the Silver Surfer in all this? Don't tell me he's going to be the one to screw up this plan. Second, Doom is once more doing the whole "mess with power/people I can't control and act surprised when this plan blows up in his face." I can't tell you how bored I am with this plot. Turning Latveria into a world power through his leadership would more an infinitely more interesting story. I don't think we've ever gotten a story where Doom shows off his charisma and political prowess to the world.

The nightmare sequence for Franklin were pathetically weak and ineffective. We don't know anything about any of the creatures he created. All we know is that they were blinked out in an instant. It's a dumb method of using drama. You had evidence of a good nightmare sequence there with the Griever at the End of All Things forcing him to watch helplessly, but we have no emotional connection to the billions of worlds and stars which were blinked out of existence. We don't even know how he feels about his creations other than "NO! They died!"

A small nitpick is his hair. It's supposed to be blue and black, but all panels have it pure blue which annoys me. Sure, there are some black patches, but I'm more inclined to believe they're shadows rather than coloring.

Wendy's back. Insert joke about Slott shipping them together. It's cute to see her fangirl over the FF, but at the same time, I feel like she's wasted in this scene. Yes, a girl who i only remember appeared in one issue. Still, I feel like an idiot for not remembering her demon/goblin friends.

Susan's use of "full transparency" on Doom. That was dumb. It's supposed to be dramatic and hilarious, but seriously? This is the "one cruel act that will change the relationship between Doom and the FF" the next issue teased? It doesn't even make sense. Sure, on Earth, it's humiliating, but across the galaxy, it makes no sense, especially since aliens like the Dire Wraiths or Skrulls care about Earth's taboos unless they're planning an infiltration. I'm sure the fact Doom has Galactus trapped in a mountain will elicit more fear than what they have in store.

[Inversed]

Susan's use of "full transparency" on Doom. That was dumb. It's supposed to be dramatic and hilarious, but seriously? This is the "one cruel act that will change the relationship between Doom and the FF" the next issue teased? It doesn't even make sense. Sure, on Earth, it's humiliating, but across the galaxy, it makes no sense, especially since aliens like the Dire Wraiths or Skrulls care about Earth's taboos unless they're planning an infiltration. I'm sure the fact Doom has Galactus trapped in a mountain will elicit more fear than what they have in store.

Considering Doom was already planning to murder them to begin with, it's not like her doing that was going to change their relationship in any real dramatic way, how much more madder could he get. It just effects Doom's ego, it may not actually mean anything to others across the galaxy in the grand scheme of things, but just knowing that everyone has seen not just his face, but his bare parts is what gets Doom irritated. Because he's petty like that.

[Iron Maiden]

He wasn't attracted to Loki until the latter became a brunette sorceress like his mom.

He wasn't attracted to Loki until he bacame female, period. As has been pointed out to you, he was attracted to Storm also. In the Old Man Logan future, his wife/consort is Emma Frost. There was also an attraction to Warrior Queen Dorma from Counter Earth but she proved to be a bit treacherous. But still, that didn't stop her from trying to kill Sue because she thought Sue was a rival and didn't realize it was Reed that was trapped in Doom's armor.

Besides, the color palette for comics is pretty limited to blondes, brunettes (dark-haired if you prefer) and the occassional red hed. In several AU situations, he was married to Sue. Valeria von Doom was the offspring of Sue and Victor from an alternate timeline. Most Romani women are dark haired anyway since the Romani descend mostly from the area of Punjab northern India. It's more accurate to say he's attracted to strong women and the hair color is irrelevant.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

He wasn't attracted to Loki until he bacame female, period. As has been pointed out to you, he was attracted to Storm also. In the Old Man Logan future, his wife/consort is Emma Frost. There was also an attraction to Warrior Queen Dorma from Counter Earth but she proved to be a bit treacherous. But still, that didn't stop her from trying to kill Sue because she thought Sue was a rival and didn't realize it was Reed that was trapped in Doom's armor.

Besides, the color palette for comics is pretty limited to blondes, brunettes (dark-haired if you prefer) and the occassional red hed. In several AU situations, he was married to Sue. Valeria von Doom was the offspring of Sue and Victor from an alternate timeline. Most Romani women are dark haired anyway since the Romani descend mostly from the area of Punjab northern India. It's more accurate to say he's attracted to strong women and the hair color is irrelevant.

The only one of Doom's crushes who is closest to his mom is Valeria from his youth. And well, see how that worked out.

[Michael Watkins]

He wasn't attracted to Loki until he bacame female, period. As has been pointed out to you, he was attracted to Storm also. In the Old Man Logan future, his wife/consort is Emma Frost. There was also an attraction to Warrior Queen Dorma from Counter Earth but she proved to be a bit treacherous. But still, that didn't stop her from trying to kill Sue because she thought Sue was a rival and didn't realize it was Reed that was trapped in Doom's armor.

Besides, the color palette for comics is pretty limited to blondes, brunettes (dark-haired if you prefer) and the occassional red hed. In several AU situations, he was married to Sue. Valeria von Doom was the offspring of Sue and Victor from an alternate timeline. Most Romani women are dark haired anyway since the Romani descend mostly from the area of Punjab northern India. It's more accurate to say he's attracted to strong women and the hair color is irrelevant.

He's into subjugation, period. Sif would not be able to give consent. And doom wasn't attracted to her until Loki took up residence. Spare me the alternate reality stuff. Being a mama's boy with a desire to control strong women is doom's thing.

[SuperiorIronman]

It's weird how this thread went from being about the pros and cons of Slott's issue to talking about how Victor can't appear before the FF movie, whether Victor wants to **** people who look like his mom, and how one can relate to Doctor Doom over Reed Richards.

It's almost as if he's a superior character who has stolen the show again despite the mediocre appearance.

[CaptCleghorn]

Now that I've allowed by thoughts to collect and settle, here's my two cents:

The scenes where Galactus is locked up were dumb. First, where is the Silver Surfer in all this? Don't tell me he's going to be the one to screw up this plan. Second, Doom is once more doing the whole "mess with power/people I can't control and act surprised when this plan blows up in his face." I can't tell you how bored I am with this plot. Turning Latveria into a world power through his leadership would more an infinitely more interesting story. I don't think we've ever gotten a story where Doom shows off his charisma and political prowess to the world.

The nightmare sequence for Franklin were pathetically weak and ineffective. We don't know anything about any of the creatures he created. All we know is that they were blinked out in an instant. It's a dumb method of using drama. You had evidence of a good nightmare sequence there with the Griever at the End of All Things forcing him to watch helplessly, but we have no emotional connection to the billions of worlds and stars which were blinked out of existence. We don't even know how he feels about his creations other than "NO! They died!"

A small nitpick is his hair. It's supposed to be blue and black, but all panels have it pure blue which annoys me. Sure, there are some black patches, but I'm more inclined to believe they're shadows rather than coloring.

Wendy's back. Insert joke about Slott shipping them together. It's cute to see her fangirl over the FF, but at the same time, I feel like she's wasted in this scene. Yes, a girl who i only remember appeared in one issue. Still, I feel like an idiot for not remembering her demon/goblin friends.

Susan's use of "full transparency" on Doom. That was dumb. It's supposed to be dramatic and hilarious, but seriously? This is the "one cruel act that will change the relationship between Doom and the FF" the next issue teased? It doesn't even make sense. Sure, on Earth, it's humiliating, but across the galaxy, it makes no sense, especially since aliens like the Dire Wraiths or Skrulls care about Earth's taboos unless they're planning an infiltration. I'm sure the fact Doom has Galactus trapped in a mountain will elicit more fear than what they have in store.

I did love both the Wendy and transparency scenes. I will comment that the goal wasn't necessarily to make Doom look foolish in fron of multiple alien races. After all, if the $#!+ hits the fan with this and Doom's scheme goes south, it'll be bad enough for him and his public bluster. What the action does is to piss Doom off enough to put him off his game and to mock him. Silly was a big factor in a fight with Doom where the FF, trapped and backs against the wall, dare to LAUGH at Doom.

[Ravin' Ray]

Late to this thread, but I've had a rather weird week.

I'm gonna end up repeating some posts.

Wendy's back. Appreciated Slott using something from the Byrne era. (I hope he will time travel an unusually intelligent quarter of Exiles from Central City, a Burner Patrol, Clobber Patrol, Head Patrol, and Wing Patrol, into the present, from Byrne's last FF story that he handed down to Roger Stern by the third issue of the arc.)

Doom recycled his breathable liquid prison for Johnny from the issue where he imprisoned them in his embassy prior to summoning the Beyonder to restore his body after Secret Wars. It's the only identical prison in both stories. Again, Byrne era.

I hardly count Doom's "comforting" message to Sue about rearing Franklin and Valeria as that. It just doesn't make up for him executing her.

Someone mention Doom killing Sue? Yes, a Sue. An AU Sue, from Millar's run with Nu-World.

Act of cruelty? Maybe not Sue's stunt. I'm thinking both Franklin and Valeria will make it to Latveria, and it will involve Val. Maybe her disowning Doom as her godfather. That could be emotionally cruel.

[Michael Watkins]

Maybe he kills Val. He's not above murdering minors.

[Inversed]

Act of cruelty? Maybe not Sue's stunt. I'm thinking both Franklin and Valeria will make it to Latveria, and it will involve Val. Maybe her disowning Doom as her godfather. That could be emotionally cruel.

Honestly that's what I really wanna see most of all. I wanna know what Val's reaction to this Doom will be, both in hindsight now as a teenager, and after spending so long vouching and enabling him. Her shutting him down or disowning him would be great to see.

[Coatl]

Honestly that's what I really wanna see most of all. I wanna know what Val's reaction to this Doom will be, both in hindsight now as a teenager, and after spending so long vouching and enabling him. Her shutting him down or disowning him would be great to see.

Wow that's actually a very interesting idea, Doom has done pretty cruel things to his parents and brother, but Val has been just overseeing all that for years in her quest to make a better person of her godfather. I sometimes told myself that she was too young to really understand (besides her intelligence) the damage that Doom has done, now that she is older I would like to see her reaction.

Franklin for the other side was tormented since he was a boy and even got PTS for a while thank's to Dooms actions, how pissed is he going to be? He has now developed his powers to galactic level, messing with his loved ones should be the worst idea, I would like to see him really angry and showing Doom how much he has grow up.

[CaptCleghorn]

Wow that's actually a very interesting idea, Doom has done pretty cruel things to his parents and brother, but Val has been just overseeing all that for years in her quest to make a better person of her godfather. I sometimes told myself that she was too young to really understand (besides her intelligence) the damage that Doom has done, now that she is older I would like to see her reaction.

Franklin for the other side was tormented since he was a boy and even got PTS for a while thank's to Dooms actions, how pissed is he going to be? He has now developed his powers to galactic level, messing with his loved ones should be the worst idea, I would like to see him really angry and showing Doom how much he has grow up.

The beauty of this book is we have four different personalities who work together and who often have conflicting opinions. And Doom is one of those parts of their lives which bring out those differing opinions. Adding the kids into this bring the drama to a whole other level.

Now I really want the kids to function as children of their particular ages (I'm going with 15 and 10 here). Accepting Franklin can rewiyte reality and create universes and Val is one of the smartest people on the planet, we still have them reacting to a guy who been an @$$hole to their family. Franklin probably has memories of his troubles. Val, on the other hand, may have a romanticized vision of her Uncle Doom. We've seen the kids reacting to their parents leaving them behind on this mission. They're understandably feeling left out and ignored. It's clear that Slott has a much better handle on this stuff than he has on the craptastular Doom/Galactus plot.

Franklin doing something huge against Doom in retaliation seems like something a 12 year old would write. I'd much rather see him as keeping Galactus from wreaking havoc through some bizarre time span pseudo-universal comic booky stuff. Now Val, on the pother hand, is a 10 year old girl. Doom's taken on Galactus, Beyonders, and wrestled lions while naked. He still should fear a pissed off pre-teen girl.

The kids could actually make this an interesting finish.

[U.N. Owen]

A take down coming from Val would honestly hit Doom where it hurts. He's not being confronted with hatred or fear; he's being confronted with hurt. To be struck with a passive emotion rather than an active one is always interesting for a narrative.

For Franklin, the use of his powers wouldn't enhance the narrative. It only hurts it. It's just another way his powers are used to break the story. I always hold one of the most effective displays of his power comes from Earth X when he curses Namor to burn just for irony's sake.

[jackolover]

Reed went back in time and saved them. So they never really died.

Yes, I do remember reading that, but I never connected that Reed time travelled back to save his family. It was just a nebulous statement by Sue. It could have just meant “somehow” Reed recreated everything, not, he time travelled back in time and returned with the whole Earth 616 and Multiverse back in tact, which is the way you are taking it.